convert to manual brakes
#52
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Car: 1982 Camaro, 1985 Z28
Engine: 383, 305
Transmission: TH350, T-5
Re: convert to manual brakes
You can get a short 8" section of 1/4" line at Napa with the oversize fitting on it for about $3 if you don't want to use adaptors. I bought it and cut off the flare and made my own line with it.
I used the small 1 1/16" bore Strange m/c and moved my pedal rod up to 2" below the pivot point of the pedal to the bracket. I used the top 2 bolt holes from the power booster to mount the m/c and that gives the recommended 6:1 pedal ratio.
Wilwood 4 piston kit up front and Torino drums on my 9" out back.
Pedal is harder than power as would be expected but better than what you guys are probably getting with a 1 1/8" m/c and just moving the rod up an inch. Stock pedal ratio is around 3:1 for the power, (12" pedal arm with the push rod 4" down), by moving the rod to 2" down you get 6:1. Keep in mind your pedal will travel farther to move the same volume of fluid, but it will move easier.
And you don't have to bend the pedal arm like that, I simply adjusted my rod end to pull the pedal down and bent the contact tab for the brakelight switch on the pedal arm down flush...everything works as it should.
I used the small 1 1/16" bore Strange m/c and moved my pedal rod up to 2" below the pivot point of the pedal to the bracket. I used the top 2 bolt holes from the power booster to mount the m/c and that gives the recommended 6:1 pedal ratio.
Wilwood 4 piston kit up front and Torino drums on my 9" out back.
Pedal is harder than power as would be expected but better than what you guys are probably getting with a 1 1/8" m/c and just moving the rod up an inch. Stock pedal ratio is around 3:1 for the power, (12" pedal arm with the push rod 4" down), by moving the rod to 2" down you get 6:1. Keep in mind your pedal will travel farther to move the same volume of fluid, but it will move easier.
And you don't have to bend the pedal arm like that, I simply adjusted my rod end to pull the pedal down and bent the contact tab for the brakelight switch on the pedal arm down flush...everything works as it should.
Last edited by Aerosmith; 03-27-2009 at 07:14 PM.
#53
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Car: 91 Pontiac Firebird
Engine: Killer SBC, w/ RV cam
Transmission: AutoMatic, w/ shift kit
Axle/Gears: Posi-Traction
Re: convert to manual brakes
I switched my stock cylinder to the Strange MC, I've eliminated the prop valve & will plumb in "T" to the master & a Jegs adj valve to the back. My prob is the adj valve is 3/16 & the line is 1/4, so finding an adapter should be my biggest problem.
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Re: convert to manual brakes
I found it, & installed the new master & Jegs prop valve, all I have to say is what a difference. I used to have to use all my leg muscle to hold it & then it was still questionalbe. Now its almost effortless.
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Car: 86 firebird with 98 firebird interi
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Transmission: Oldani TH400 w/ BTE 9" convertor
Axle/Gears: 31 spline Moser/full spool/4.11Rich
Re: convert to manual brakes
I had trouble finding adapters for my rear "Y" block NPT to -3 AN rear brake hoses, so I was expecting a difficult time locating the 3/16" to 1/4" adapter too. I did locate them pretty quick.
I found it, & installed the new master & Jegs prop valve, all I have to say is what a difference. I used to have to use all my leg muscle to hold it & then it was still questionalbe. Now its almost effortless.
I found it, & installed the new master & Jegs prop valve, all I have to say is what a difference. I used to have to use all my leg muscle to hold it & then it was still questionalbe. Now its almost effortless.
#57
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Car: 88 iroc-z/28
Engine: 408 lsx
Transmission: 5800 stall
Axle/Gears: 4.71
Re: convert to manual brakes
I had trouble finding adapters for my rear "Y" block NPT to -3 AN rear brake hoses, so I was expecting a difficult time locating the 3/16" to 1/4" adapter too. I did locate them pretty quick.
I found it, & installed the new master & Jegs prop valve, all I have to say is what a difference. I used to have to use all my leg muscle to hold it & then it was still questionalbe. Now its almost effortless.
I found it, & installed the new master & Jegs prop valve, all I have to say is what a difference. I used to have to use all my leg muscle to hold it & then it was still questionalbe. Now its almost effortless.
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Re: convert to manual brakes
Heres the part # I used, its from Summit (B3360t). It even came w/ 2 firewall plates.
The B3359T is a 1.125 bore (optimum for 4 piston calipers front & rear)
The B3360T is 1.032 bore (optimum for vehicles w/ 4 piston calipers ini the rear & 2 piston, or single piston caliper on the front)
Verbatum as per Strange instructions.
I forgot to mention my old set up was factory master & factory prop valve & factory front disc set up, w/ Wilwood Dynalite calipers in the rear.
On the dyno, the old set up wouldnt even stop the rear wheels. Now its solid.
Who do I thank??
The B3359T is a 1.125 bore (optimum for 4 piston calipers front & rear)
The B3360T is 1.032 bore (optimum for vehicles w/ 4 piston calipers ini the rear & 2 piston, or single piston caliper on the front)
Verbatum as per Strange instructions.
I forgot to mention my old set up was factory master & factory prop valve & factory front disc set up, w/ Wilwood Dynalite calipers in the rear.
On the dyno, the old set up wouldnt even stop the rear wheels. Now its solid.
Who do I thank??
#60
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Car: 88 formula
Engine: 350 goin carb
Transmission: 700r4
Re: convert to manual brakes
next to hit this old horse lol
im currently running stock front calipers and sock drums in the rear on a 10 bolt. im an not sure which kit to go with.... the car is for drag use only now so im not to picky as long as i can hold her at the line and eventually stop before the sand.
only reason to do this is m cam is way to big for my power brakes and the can didnt help much at all.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku work??
im currently running stock front calipers and sock drums in the rear on a 10 bolt. im an not sure which kit to go with.... the car is for drag use only now so im not to picky as long as i can hold her at the line and eventually stop before the sand.
only reason to do this is m cam is way to big for my power brakes and the can didnt help much at all.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku work??
#61
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Car: 1985 camaro z28
Engine: 355 sbc what else
Transmission: TH 350 manual vb/ 4200 stall
Axle/Gears: 4:30 on the street
Re: convert to manual brakes
you could try to use the stock master cylinder first and see how you like it. i am currently running the stocker in mine and i think it works well but i have 99 SS brakes on the rear not drums. one other thing that is mentioned several times in this post is not to forget to move the pivot location at the pedal or your brakes won't feel or work for crap.
just for reference i run 11.72 @ 113 and don't have any trouble stopping before the sand.
just for reference i run 11.72 @ 113 and don't have any trouble stopping before the sand.
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Car: 88 iroc-z/28
Engine: 408 lsx
Transmission: 5800 stall
Axle/Gears: 4.71
Re: convert to manual brakes
89 dodge caravan master clyinder from orlieys.
brand new, and the cheapest around.
pedal is a lil spongy, brakes at the bottom right now, but a couple more bleeds and ill be good.
stops fine, just a lil more foot pressure.
brand new, and the cheapest around.
pedal is a lil spongy, brakes at the bottom right now, but a couple more bleeds and ill be good.
stops fine, just a lil more foot pressure.
#63
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Car: 88 formula
Engine: 350 goin carb
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Re: convert to manual brakes
you could try to use the stock master cylinder first and see how you like it. i am currently running the stocker in mine and i think it works well but i have 99 SS brakes on the rear not drums. one other thing that is mentioned several times in this post is not to forget to move the pivot location at the pedal or your brakes won't feel or work for crap.
just for reference i run 11.72 @ 113 and don't have any trouble stopping before the sand.
just for reference i run 11.72 @ 113 and don't have any trouble stopping before the sand.
did you just remove the booster? i dont mind doing a free modificaion and yeah ill definatly move that linkage
#64
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Car: 1985 camaro z28
Engine: 355 sbc what else
Transmission: TH 350 manual vb/ 4200 stall
Axle/Gears: 4:30 on the street
Re: convert to manual brakes
yeah you have to remove it or it will work as if you shut the car off and killed all vaccum and everyone who has had that happen knows it really sucks.
what i did was removed the master cylinder from the booster and then the booster from the firewall. From there i removed the bracket from the back of the booster and used it to mount the master cylinder to the fire wall. you will need to drill new holes in the bracket for the master cylinder or figure out a way to use the holes that are there, i have seen it done both ways. then when you get the master cylinder mounted you can cut and reweld the original pueh rod or make a new one, just keep in mind to make sure that the original push rod is sqaure and straight before you weld it or it could break under pressure.
i have seen earlier on in this post were some guys used a rod end and threaded drill rod to make a new push rod, if rewelding the original doesn't sound like something you feel safe doing then i would look through this post and may contact one of those members.
hope this helps
#65
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Car: 1985 camaro z28
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Transmission: TH 350 manual vb/ 4200 stall
Axle/Gears: 4:30 on the street
Re: convert to manual brakes
hey if you go back to page one of this post there are good pics and info that should get you moving along.
#66
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Car: 88 iroc-z/28
Engine: 408 lsx
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Axle/Gears: 4.71
Re: convert to manual brakes
aerospace components will sell you the adjustable rod end setup for 29.95. thats where i got mine from.
only vendor that will sell it seperate.
same goes with the aluminum adapter plate for the mopar/strange/wilwood master.
burkhart chassis or TRZ are the only outlets that offer the bracket singularly.
rod end 29.99+ship 41.00
adapter 60+ ship 71.00
mopar master 36.00
total of $148.00
car stops better than others i know using the strange and wilwood master.
some say it isnt correct, but the mopar master has much better pedal feel, and its aluminum too, so dont let fancy advertising fool you into buying a 100+ dollar master that will require you to run adapter fittings ($$).
the mopar is threaded and ready to take a 3/16 brake line. 3/8x24 inv flare.
only vendor that will sell it seperate.
same goes with the aluminum adapter plate for the mopar/strange/wilwood master.
burkhart chassis or TRZ are the only outlets that offer the bracket singularly.
rod end 29.99+ship 41.00
adapter 60+ ship 71.00
mopar master 36.00
total of $148.00
car stops better than others i know using the strange and wilwood master.
some say it isnt correct, but the mopar master has much better pedal feel, and its aluminum too, so dont let fancy advertising fool you into buying a 100+ dollar master that will require you to run adapter fittings ($$).
the mopar is threaded and ready to take a 3/16 brake line. 3/8x24 inv flare.
#67
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Car: 86 Camaro
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Transmission: Powerglide w/brake
Axle/Gears: Currie 9" w/4.56
Re: convert to manual brakes
, just keep in mind to make sure that the original push rod is sqaure and straight before you weld it or it could break under pressure.
if rewelding the original doesn't sound like something you feel safe doing then i would look through this post and may contact one of those members.
hope this helps
if rewelding the original doesn't sound like something you feel safe doing then i would look through this post and may contact one of those members.
hope this helps
#68
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Car: 1985 camaro z28
Engine: 355 sbc what else
Transmission: TH 350 manual vb/ 4200 stall
Axle/Gears: 4:30 on the street
Re: convert to manual brakes
well it being a little sketchy is way i put a second option about making one or in your case buying one from a company which is just fine. i personally am a little more old school and also have been taught how to weld by a welding professor at a college who is one of my friends, but not everyone has those resources and have to do it another way.
#69
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Car: 88 iroc-z/28
Engine: 408 lsx
Transmission: 5800 stall
Axle/Gears: 4.71
Re: convert to manual brakes
well it being a little sketchy is way i put a second option about making one or in your case buying one from a company which is just fine. i personally am a little more old school and also have been taught how to weld by a welding professor at a college who is one of my friends, but not everyone has those resources and have to do it another way.
a great tip would be to have a steel sleeve or tube spacer to go over the rod, then weld it on each side. much more safe than a but weld, and its still a cheap option.
#70
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Car: 86 Camaro
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Re: convert to manual brakes
Don't get offended, I wasn't saying that you were sketchy. To me, that's jut something that's too critical to be welded on. That rod take a helluva lot of stress. A sleeve would work, but my theory is that I won't cut corners on anything safety related. That being said, the way you guys have attacked the rest of the swap is pretty impressive.
Last edited by Big, White & Sl; 05-07-2009 at 09:07 AM. Reason: grammar
#71
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Car: 1985 camaro z28
Engine: 355 sbc what else
Transmission: TH 350 manual vb/ 4200 stall
Axle/Gears: 4:30 on the street
Re: convert to manual brakes
Don't get offended, I wasn't saying that you were sketchy. To me, that's jut something that's too critical to be welded on. That rod take a helluva lot of stress. A sleeve would work, but my theory is that I won't cut corners on anything safety related. That being said, the way you guys have attacked the rest of the swap is pretty impressive.
#73
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Car: 84 Camaro
Engine: 468 bbc
Transmission: th350
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/4.11
Re: convert to manual brakes
Figured I would post this in here since ive been looking at all the threads/posts on everyones broad selection of manual master cylinder installations. Since the TRZ adapter is made for mopar style masters i figured these would come in handy -
1978 Dodge D 100 manual disc - 1 1/8 bore
1988 Dodge Diplomat - 1 1/32 bore
1989 Dodge Dakota - 15/16 bore
1978 Dodge D 100 manual disc - 1 1/8 bore
1988 Dodge Diplomat - 1 1/32 bore
1989 Dodge Dakota - 15/16 bore
#74
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Car: 88 iroc-z/28
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Re: convert to manual brakes
ive always been told that the large bore will give you hard pedal, but stop like all hell, and a small bore will have a spongy pedal.
#75
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Car: 86 firebird with 98 firebird interi
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Re: convert to manual brakes
All the cars i've raced that had too large of a bore for a manual brake set up had extremely hard pedal...two footing...and did'nt stop for crap, just flat out could'nt get enough pedal pressure to transmit line pressure to clamp the pads down...to say they were all scarey is an understatement.
#76
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Car: '84 Z28
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Re: convert to manual brakes
I have been asked for the dimensions for the adapter a few times now, so I thought I would post up. I haven't gotten to the point in my project to bleed the brakes, but I think it should work.
#77
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Re: convert to manual brakes
All the cars i've raced that had too large of a bore for a manual brake set up had extremely hard pedal...two footing...and did'nt stop for crap, just flat out could'nt get enough pedal pressure to transmit line pressure to clamp the pads down...to say they were all scarey is an understatement.
#78
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Car: 87 IROC L98
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Re: convert to manual brakes
I have no idea what the bore size is of my master cylinder. It's a GM aluminum master cylinder from an S10 that had manual brakes. I would assume it's smaller than a power assist master cylinder.
My front brakes are Aerospace drag racing disk and they're not very big by street car standards. My rear brakes are Ford 11 x 2-1/4 drums and I have no problems slowing down from 140+ mph. If I get real hard on the brakes, I can take the first turnoff and with moderate pressure, can easily slow down for the last turnoff.
If I pull the chute as I cross the finish line, moderate brake pressure can get me slow enough for the first turn
Over the winter, I may adapt and swap in a set of Ford Explorer rear disk brakes.
My front brakes are Aerospace drag racing disk and they're not very big by street car standards. My rear brakes are Ford 11 x 2-1/4 drums and I have no problems slowing down from 140+ mph. If I get real hard on the brakes, I can take the first turnoff and with moderate pressure, can easily slow down for the last turnoff.
If I pull the chute as I cross the finish line, moderate brake pressure can get me slow enough for the first turn
Over the winter, I may adapt and swap in a set of Ford Explorer rear disk brakes.
#79
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Re: convert to manual brakes
buy a 30 dollar one from orielys and be done.
it doesnt even need a proportioning valve.
it doesnt even need a proportioning valve.
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Re: convert to manual brakes
This is an excellent thread for info.
Has anyone found the need to use a brace similar to what is offered by Smith at the bottom of the page linked below?
http://www.smithperformance.com/cata...der%20Firewall
Has anyone found the need to use a brace similar to what is offered by Smith at the bottom of the page linked below?
http://www.smithperformance.com/cata...der%20Firewall
#81
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Car: 88 iroc-z/28
Engine: 408 lsx
Transmission: 5800 stall
Axle/Gears: 4.71
Re: convert to manual brakes
This is an excellent thread for info.
Has anyone found the need to use a brace similar to what is offered by Smith at the bottom of the page linked below?
http://www.smithperformance.com/cata...der%20Firewall
Has anyone found the need to use a brace similar to what is offered by Smith at the bottom of the page linked below?
http://www.smithperformance.com/cata...der%20Firewall
i did see a guy that just had a tube nut welded to the shock tower with a bolt in it. the head of the bolt applied pressure to the face of the master clyinder.
pretty neat idea.
i may do something similar, as its easy access for welding.
i should have snapped a pic of it!
#83
Re: convert to manual brakes
Im looking into running the s-10 set up in my race car. Since I have to use stock parts I am limited to using oem parts. If I used the s-10 master with the s-10 proportioning valve and installed the s-10 wheel cylinders in the back I should be good to go? I now they'll be some fab work on my end that fine and the rod end seems to work pretty good on the push rod? wanna make sure I get the right parts
#84
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Re: convert to manual brakes
Should work good since you would basically be using a complete S10 system, as the front brakes systems on the third gens and s10's are all but identical. The rod end works great for me.
#85
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Transmission: TH350, T56
Axle/Gears: 3.73, 4.10
Re: convert to manual brakes
Old thread but good. I want to do the Stange master cylinder with the 1 1/16th bore (the 1.032) But This is a street car. It not just a drag car, but I like the feal of manuel brakes. Would any of you guys recomend this?
#86
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Car: '84 Z28
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Axle/Gears: Moser M9/5:14 ratio/Billet Locker
Re: convert to manual brakes
My car is still in pieces, but I plan on driving it on the street. I'm sure alot of people drive theres on the street.
#88
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Car: 86 firebird with 98 firebird interi
Engine: pump gas 427sbc Dart Lil M 13.5:1
Transmission: Oldani TH400 w/ BTE 9" convertor
Axle/Gears: 31 spline Moser/full spool/4.11Rich
Re: convert to manual brakes
That's the one I have, and it works great street or strip
#90
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Car: 86 firebird with 98 firebird interi
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Transmission: Oldani TH400 w/ BTE 9" convertor
Axle/Gears: 31 spline Moser/full spool/4.11Rich
Re: convert to manual brakes
no different than guys specing out their own camshaft, seems everybody wants to err themselves on the big side and the performance suffers.
#91
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Re: convert to manual brakes
Why, a properly set up system stops equally as good as a pwr brake set up, with no more force from the driver....it's just too many have no idea and ruin their own brake system by not matching components or picking size of components and then cry because the brakes suck....
no different than guys specing out their own camshaft, seems everybody wants to err themselves on the big side and the performance suffers.
no different than guys specing out their own camshaft, seems everybody wants to err themselves on the big side and the performance suffers.
Is your car 4 wheel disk?
#92
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Axle/Gears: 31 spline Moser/full spool/4.11Rich
Re: convert to manual brakes
Yes, it's a 4 wheel disc set up using stock metric calipers. I just bought a "rear kit" from the same company I bought the Ford 9" from. I installed a adjustible proportioning valve when I was redoing everything, but it's wide open, which is how I had it before since I gutted the factory one right away. So honestly I would save your money and not install one, Drag cars always have larger back tires in comparison to the fronts, so the fronts dont have as much contact patch to effectively stop without locking up, so you want to direct the larger rear tires to take up the difference.
One of those things I wish I'da done the day I got the car (convert to manual brakes) but back then I'd only ever driven cars that had terrible brake feel and terrible stopping pwr with manual set up's. Years later I started racing other's cars and got to see first hand manual brakes can indeed stop every bit as good as pwr set up's and still have almost no pedal effort.
One of those things I wish I'da done the day I got the car (convert to manual brakes) but back then I'd only ever driven cars that had terrible brake feel and terrible stopping pwr with manual set up's. Years later I started racing other's cars and got to see first hand manual brakes can indeed stop every bit as good as pwr set up's and still have almost no pedal effort.
#94
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Car: 86 firebird with 98 firebird interi
Engine: pump gas 427sbc Dart Lil M 13.5:1
Transmission: Oldani TH400 w/ BTE 9" convertor
Axle/Gears: 31 spline Moser/full spool/4.11Rich
Re: convert to manual brakes
certain ALL air is bled from system?
using rubber or braided to calipers?
bore of piston in M/C? I think I recall you called Strange so that should be good.
you raised the mounting point on the pedal arm?
obviously something is off if you got stiff pedal and bad brakes
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Car: 84 z28, 86 irocz
Engine: LS6, 305 TPI
Transmission: TH350, T56
Axle/Gears: 3.73, 4.10
Re: convert to manual brakes
3/16" line up front? 1/4" going back?
certain ALL air is bled from system?
using rubber or braided to calipers?
bore of piston in M/C? I think I recall you called Strange so that should be good.
you raised the mounting point on the pedal arm?
obviously something is off if you got stiff pedal and bad brakes
certain ALL air is bled from system?
using rubber or braided to calipers?
bore of piston in M/C? I think I recall you called Strange so that should be good.
you raised the mounting point on the pedal arm?
obviously something is off if you got stiff pedal and bad brakes
#96
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Re: convert to manual brakes
3/16" line up front? 1/4" going back?
certain ALL air is bled from system?
using rubber or braided to calipers?
bore of piston in M/C? I think I recall you called Strange so that should be good.
you raised the mounting point on the pedal arm?
obviously something is off if you got stiff pedal and bad brakes
certain ALL air is bled from system?
using rubber or braided to calipers?
bore of piston in M/C? I think I recall you called Strange so that should be good.
you raised the mounting point on the pedal arm?
obviously something is off if you got stiff pedal and bad brakes
#97
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Car: 86 firebird with 98 firebird interi
Engine: pump gas 427sbc Dart Lil M 13.5:1
Transmission: Oldani TH400 w/ BTE 9" convertor
Axle/Gears: 31 spline Moser/full spool/4.11Rich
Re: convert to manual brakes
yes all new lines all around, 3/16 up front and 1/4" in the back. Air is ALL gone, thus the super stiff pedal. Went through bench bleeding it twice and gravity bleeding and that mighty master bleeder that forces the fluid out of the system. All braided lines to calipers, bore is 1 1/16", moved the mount up 1" approximately, possibly a smidge more. Brakes are factory disk all around, lt1 factory brakes on the rear. They worked awesome when I had power, now they are maybe 30% of what they used to do. Barely making the last turn off so I hate to drive the thing. Going to try another strange master, otherwise I have no idea.
#98
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Re: convert to manual brakes
ya I'm going to swap to the other one this week, but without the car having a motor in it I guess I won't really know Will at least know if the pedal gets easier and has more travel at least. Buddy recommended just tossing in a 89 dodge caravan manual master and said he had good results with that over the strange/wilwood ones.
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Car: 1987 IROC
Engine: 350 vortec
Transmission: TH350 3500 stall
Axle/Gears: 3.73 10 bolt grenade
Re: convert to manual brakes
this is making me want to go ahead and set mine up when i tear everything out of the engine bay, a manual master looks so much cleaner. interested to see how your issues come out xpndbl3, thats the same brake setup i want to run