85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

I was thinking of swapping to the Brodix 18* 18-x heads. What are the pros and cons to swapping to a 18* head over 23*? I plan on putting a rather large cam in there and when it comes to the cost of the heads the AFR's and similar heads come close to the price of the 18-x but dont produce enough. Any thoughts?

ross

You will need shaft rocker arms, new intake manifold, new headers, new pistons to run 18 deg stuff. Then when you start looking at the heads all the 18 deg stuff has large runners and small combustion chambers. thay make great top end power but are soft on the lower rpm.

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Yeah the AFR 210cc heads were my choice but it was just a idea to make more power N/A

BlueBeast

What kind of power are you looking for? What size motor are you running. If you want more power go with bigger cubes and the AFR 227's. Then you wont have to change all the stuff mentioned above.

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Planned power is over 600hp Flywheel, The motor is a 406sbc with 13:1 compression with 64cc combustion chambers. And a .585/.600 249*/255* solid roller cam

IHI

iTrader: (1)

You'll still need pistons due to 60/40 valve spacing with the AFR 227's...one of the reasons i went with brodix KC T1 227 100% CNC'd units. but if i had to buy all new stuff, and was going with laid back valves, you might as well go straight to 15-12* and get the most for your dollars. But apples to apples "they say" 18* is worth 100hp over a similar 23* combination.

but the list is correct, offset shaft rockers, pistons, intake, valve covers, headers, etc...expect to pay about $1K-4K more than 23* stuff if buying all the same parts new with only difference being valve angle. no such thing as free hp unless your removing weight from the car.

ross

IHI hows your ride coming along long time no see.

ross

IHI and me are both running around 600 + HP on mule alone with pump gas He uses the brdix cnc 227 heads and I am using dart cnc 227 mine are out of the box with only my springs added and a 30 deg back cut. We are running a few more cubes IHI at 427ci me at 434ci

IHI

iTrader: (1)

It's sitting LOL. I put it on racing junk for sale a few months ago...not expecting much activity until tax time starts rolling and people get over the winter/holiday blahs and then i'll list it premium and see if it sells. BUT...BUT...in the meantime being the money hater i am, I had intentions of calling Bullet today and getting a sku/po# and get my old cam fixed and reinstall it...i think the cam was the biggest problem and i may also see about a different stick all together from them now that i know exact specs of everything and see if they can maybe pick out and even better grind...but i hate to see an almost $500 cam sit on the shelf....maybe i should'nt ask about a different stick LOL!!! Then I'm going to order a 4.71 gear for it....

Yeah, selling the car, but still throwing money at it..hmmmmwhy am i selling the car...so i stop throwing money at it...just makes me mad cuz i know it's good for 10.30-10.40 in good air, combo is just off a bit and i wont be happy until i see the slip LOL!!! after the money streak last year, another $500 aint nuthin

Plus, we're planning a trip to race at Gateway for some super street/fast street car shoot out thingey in may a buddy told me they're going too (if my car isnt sold by then)...i figured what the heck, they're running brackets and i refuse to stand and watch racing if i can participate

ross

Sorry to here that the car is up for sale. Don't feel bad I was very close to selling mine also and still undecided due to the economy and the fact every time I turn around it needs anouther thousand dollars spent on it.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I dont want to sell it as it's always treated me well and put alot of money into my pockets over the years, but right now i have too much going on with my business, summer time i'm hardly around and my daughter is 6yrs old and she really started calling me out last year about not being around much...i wish you were like other daddies...yeah, that shhit cuts deep. so then the fact mon-fri i was hardly around then leave fri night/sat morning to race somewhere for the weekend (wife is not into the drag racing thing) it;s just been something i knew was coming....and i dont care if it sells or not to be honest, but the only way i wont race..is if i dont have it, plus we're starting to buy other toys and that's the new goal. We bought some snowmobiles last month and as a family have been riding the pizz outta them, i gotta deal worked out on a new quad and am looking for one for the wife..daughter already has one. gonna pull the boat back out, we're deciding between a camper or rv and i'm gonna try to relax and do more family things until my daughter gets older...i've missed alot already and could've paid for her college and then some with racing/car building expenses LOL!!!!

It's a stupid low amount i'm selling it for, it should actually be about $5K higher than it is, but WTF...

ross

I have a six year old son he loves the car I also have a three year old daughter she just knows daddy has a race car. I was looking for a travel trailer myself. I cant stand boats I work on them every day so thay are out of the picture heck even working on my own car seems like a job in its self.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I have a construction company and i HATE working on my own house, typically i save all the honey do lists and let the guys work on it during the winter months LOL!!! I used to enjoy it, but now it's a job and the car used to be my stress relief....then once i went head long into competative racing, you know how that goes, constant tuning to keep it competative, the need/drive to go faster..and faster means more wrenching to keep it in top working condition, we hit it very hard for about 4 yrs stragiht and not so hard for 3 and i think I just basically burnt myself out...this yr esspecially...tranney/engine out 7 times working through all the troubles and none were self induced, just shops screwing me...i literally used 20 gallons of oil and 3 cases of tranny fluid and only had 17 passes on the car...

So looking for a "grass is greener on the other side" outlet, I've always grown up with bikes/quads/sleds and always had fun, but once we started drag racing i had to get tunnel vision to do as well as i did, the level of consentration demands your full attention since it costs to much to "just have fun racing"...those are the guys that trailer up early and have just wasted all the time, money, energy it took to get them there since they want to have fun...looking back, street class was fun, minimal investment, no working on the car prepping it for the next weekend, reliable, cheap to operate, cheap entries, crap payouts, but life was much easier back then and we enjoyed it...once i stepped upto N/B the fun left, money got blown through at a fast pace, and even less time for the family after work.

On thing i noticed over the years, when we first started racing everything was $100, did'nt matter what it was, car part, fluids, etc...$100bill. Step up to go faster and all of a sudden it's $2-500, did'ntmatter what it was, that's what the average was...then the last 3 years, $1000...did'nt matter what it was, $1000. Typically i budget $10-12K/yr for racing, includes tires, car gas, towing gas, hotels, eats, drinks, entries...anymore with higer entire fees and larger purses, increased fuel costs, it's going to take $13-15K/yr to hit the points races and all the other off points race weekends...to be half way competative, sadly that's what it costs, and compared to some guys that is cheap...not trying to brag, but putting things into perspective, in the first 7yrs racing i had spent just shy of $90K for everything (i need to keep track of this for taxes) and after last yrs who-ha we're weeel above $100K in 8 yrs. but that is EVERYTHING i've ever spent racing related...and look, i'm still slow as molasses LOL!!!

stiletto

the question is you want to go fast? if so you will make way more power with 18* degree heads. the brodix 18-x heads use 23* valve train and dont make near the power the true 18* heads do. One of the best 18* heads are the Gm363 heads.
How much money are you willing to spend?

if you build a 14.1 400 small block with gm 363 heads is should make 750-780 N/A power easily! and 300-400 horse of nitrous and you willbe in the 8's all day

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I dont really want to do the whole bottom end over so I think maybe I'll stick with the AFR 210cc heads or something a littler larger but still a 23* head.

stiletto

with the afr 210's dont think you need offset lifters, withe the afr 220's and larger require special valve train with them head, but they do work really good

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I used to run AFR 210's as cast, ran 10.90's on pump gas with my old 388, nothing special engine, just a good combo...wanna know the funniest part....these current brodix KC T1 100% CNC 227's were out flowed by my old AFR castings upto .650 lift before the brodix took back over upto .750 lift. So ask yourself how much time does your cam hang the valves open at .650 lift and higher and let that help you decide.

take that for what it's worth

Lots of ways you can go with this, just depends on what YOU want it to do..alot can be accomplished with 23* stuff, but when you want to start running low 10's/9's with a sbc, then you have to go with laid over heads unless your power adding...and i will be perfectly honest...it's ALOT cheaper/waaay more reliable to switch to a BBC when you want to run consist 10's without engine breaking a sweat...it's taken me alot of $$$ beat downs, but i've finally caved in and embrassed the facts...just not as cool to go in the 10's NA with a pig block cuz anybody can do that.

stiletto

i am going to be putting a 511 in my car in the next month or so. i cannot wait.
to build a GOOD small block cost about the same amount to build a decent big block and you dont have to kill the big block to run the same numbers

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

I want to run atleast a 10.99 N/A on this motor. Its a 406sbc 13:1 compression,completely built bottom end, Lunati cam #60133, using 1.6 rockers, Vic jr manifold and a 750 hp series carb for now. And most likely afr 210cc heads.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

If that's all you want, thos AFR's will be plenty of head to get you there and then some, looking back with the proper components geeting down to 10.99 is really not that hard anymore with the heads available and sticks available.

Stilleto: yep, them BBC are hardly breaking a sweat pushing a normal street car into the 10's, and are much less finikey too.

stiletto

with that much compression you will need a 850-950.
a friend of mine has a 11.1 406 with RHS 220's cnc ported and a 950 AED carb on it . it is in a blazer with a a powerglide it runs 10.64 @128 on motor. it weighs 3200 with driver has a 4.10 gear and a 28x10.5 slick

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

The tranny will be a th350 with somewhere in the 4000-5000 range stall converter. Rearend is a Moser 12 bolt, with 4.30's and 28x10.5 tires.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Why not just go for the stronger TH400 right off the batt...same cost to rebuild, same work to put it in??

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Well I already have a th350 so I was going to stick with that for now. I just want to run 10's N/A and still be able to drive it on the streets sometimes.

stiletto

not being rude,but soon as you hammer down on that 350 it will not like it. they are junk. i have a th400 and its all stock with a trans brake.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

He might be one of the lucky ones and it may actually hold up...but with just myself and my uncle we have a handful of busted TH350's from around the 500hp mark so i'll NEVER ever conside them for anything ever again...they're junk, even when ya put the better parts in them...which will cost just a tiiiny bit more than a th400 when it's all said and done.

BUT, I'm sure you know other's like i do that can do no wrong and things just work out...hell, my buddy has a $25 TH350 literally straight out of the junkyard we installed a B&M shift kit, changed fluid/filter, and it's been behind his BBC malibu running low 11's/high 10's for 3 years both street strip like mine...some guys have the luck, other's dont...like i said, after fragging 5 between myself and my uncle, I gave up on them...not wasting my time, money, damage to my car if she lets go at the wrong time over a proven design that does not like hp.

Either way, if you take it to the track, do yourself a favor and this goes for ANY 3 speed user, before you pull out of the water box, make damn sure your in high gear and let off the gas before it grabs...that way internally the entire tranny is locked so the shock of the dead hook is distributed throughout the transmission vs coming out in second gear like sooooo many guys do and breaking the sprag.

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the info. I have been following your progress a lot IHI and I kind of use your car as a mule to compare mine to. I think I'll do a TH400 then and sell my th350. I dont want to be tearing the car apart all the time. I just want to go racing!

radialtireking

I had a th350 in my car for years running low 9's @ 3300 pounds. It had 100's of passes and 1,000's of street miles on it. It was some kind of freak of nature. LOL After it broke I put another identical th350 in and it blew apart on the first pass. Then I put a th400 in it and haven't had a problem since. So do yourself a favor and just put the th400 in it from the get go. You'll be better off in the end. Oh and my car still has 23* heads and has been 9.84 @ 139 N/A with a nitrous converter.

stiletto

thats how is always work, you soon as you have them rebuilt thats the end of them. i noticed when we were installing strong shift kits thats when they were breaking , when we only drilled one hole in the plate they did ok.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

LOL, aint broke dont fix it but then you feel guilty and that's when it will break, so then you say you should've rebuilt it and you would've prevented the frag....flip the page, and now you pull it down when it's wworking great, but you feel as a good PM schedule it should be gone through, and then you reinstall and the SOB does'nt work right....damned if ya do, damned if ya dont LOL!!!

But yeah, once you start venturing away from the high 11's low 12's with a 3 speed, it's never a bad idea to just move yourself into a TH400 and call it done. Kind of like putting a bunch on money into these stock junk rears, yeah, you might be fine for a little bit, but each time you beat on it your one step closer to disaster, so naturally a 12 bolt or 9" is the better/safer choice if you have the means.

And when your doing your burnout, that is no exaguration, get'er into high gear asap. 2 distinct advantages:
1. Lower engine rpms and higher wheel speed resulting in reducced burnout durations, less engine wear and tear
2. it couples the entire tranny together for greater strength, other wise if you pull out in 2nd gear all that shock is put directly onto the sprag, and even with a good aftermarket HD 34 element, you will still break it eventually..but again, busting the sprag is also hit or miss as far as seeing it happen first hand, but talk to any reputable trans builder and you'll soon find out how common busted sprags really are.

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the good advice. I'll deffinately keep it in mind when doing burnouts at the track. I guess its now off to find a th400 for myself. Any clue on the dimensions I will need for a custom driveshaft?

ross

I vote turbo 400 also had lots of turbo 350 none of them lasted. My friend has an S-10 that runs on the street and at the track a buddy of mine built his T350 in his drive way close to 10 years later it is still going strong with a few 9.50 pass under it's clutchs. Mind you he was swaping them out just about every week until this one went in. And on the chlinder heads I had a pair of 195 afrs that went 11.0s to 11.10s on motor with a nitrous cam.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Driveshaft length will always be an unknown until you have your piece bolted into place, but i had a custom 3" steel unit made with 1350 solid u joints at both ends and I wanna say it was around $300 for it, but dont quote me as it's been a looong time ago.

but so long as your this far, stepping upto 1350 series yokes (for trans output and yoke on pinion)/solid u joints is just a no brainer (greaseable's are nice for daily drivers but are weak since they're hollow internally) . Spendy at first, but alot cheaper than dealing with the aftermath of a driveshaft flopping around under the car. Pay me now or pay me later...always worth waiting that extra time to try and do it right so your not opening a can of worms on yourself later...BUT like everybody here will tell you, even doing it right is no guaruntee...it's still a car LOL!!