89IrocZ350TPI

I was talking to my "Ford" buddy the other day and he insists that a 302 bolt on car will out run a 350 bolt on car. He thinks that they are more parts for 5.0's and that they also respond better to the mods. My question is which is a better engine to put your money into? The 5.0 is lighter and has an awesome power to weight ratio. There is still the fact that the is no replacement for displacement. What do you guys think as far as a bolt on 350 tpi car vs a 302 FI car? Would it be a drivers race?

roughskinjrz

dont get my wrong, i love my 5.7 but i would say the 5.0 would produce more with bolts ons.

my brother added a few bolts on to his completey stock 87 mustang 5.0 FI, and he runs 13.4 in the 1/4 mile

87TPI350KID

If its a roller-FI block, the ford 5.0 would be slightly better.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Depends upon your defination of "bolt on", and whether the total cost is equal between the two.

89IrocZ350TPI

I am talking about "Full Bolt-Ons". Exhaust/Intake/Filters/Modded air box/Chiped/Gears/TB/ ect.................

Full bolt on 87-92 L98 vs Full bolt on 87-92 GT or LX

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

power output wise, its close...

but the stang has an advantage of like 200 less lbs weight and thus can run abit quicker than fbodys. could be better to compare the Vette TPI L98 with teh 5.0 stang. similar weights. vettes have dipped bottom 13's on stock TPI.. i even heard 12's with a cam.

put that 5.0 and 350 motor in the same car and see whats up... i bet it would be close.

5.0 has been know for its bolt on abilities. hell i know of a guy that did a few 13.9's with a stock 89 LX 5 speed. 350 L98's have great potential tho... the Tune is where its at... there is a LOT of power hiding in that motor that can be brought out with a good dyno tune. some magazine picked up about 30 hp ust in a custom chip on a 86 L98 vette that had a few bolt ons like exhaust CAI

but ford does have the 5 speed advantage........

compare Auto 5.0 to Auto L98 and L98 wins all in my book. i got a stalled 700r4 with a stock L98 with just exhaust and not so flowmaster catback and i trap 100mph... nearly 101mph. i probly will end up trapping 101 with a 1.8 60 foot time. i guareentee a T5 behind the L98 will do better times.

89IrocZ350TPI

Yes its 200 lbs more but the 87 L98 made the same power as the 5.0 of 87. Thats why the mustang was a little quicker for 87.Lets keep the comparion to a GT or LX w/5-speed, beacuse the L98 350 Auto was chevys top model. The 5.0 5-Speed was fords top model GT/LX its only fair. The 5-speed made 5hp more than the auto and had better gears.

87 GT 225/300
87 L98 225/330

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

you said it yourself, no replacement for displacement.

You will ALWAYS make more power with a chevy 350, then you will with comparable parts in a ford 302. Every single time. The only thing beyond that that determines how fast you go is weight.

I've seen bolt on 5.0s pull good times, and they have an advantange of having a different FI system from the TPI cars. A bolt-on 5.0 should beat a bolt-on L98 if they're in an even state of tune. The 5.0 is lighter and usually has better gears.
The L98 has the TQ advantage and the advantage of an automatic that doesn't suck. I give it to the 5.0 because of intake. But switch out the TPI for an HSR or similar, and that 5.0 is smoked.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

well yes and no.. i dont think its fair to have a auto vs manual cuz the gearing will be off and give disadvantage to the stock stall auto.

weight is off too so the two cars are hard to compare stat for stat. weight is a big difference

89IrocZ350TPI

I think once chevy made up for the extra weight they started to get the edge on ford. 87 and 88 L98s were really really close in performance. The 89 cars with G92 packages should make up for the extra pounds. Same with the Speed Density cars 90-92 more power for the bigger car.

The reason I said to compare a gt/lx 5-speed is beacuse they are faster than the auto cars,so they would be a better comparsion for the L98's.

TunedPort 335

I'm gonna say a bolt on 5.0 will beat a bolt on L98 car, given equal mods.

Look up the member 25thmustang here.

89IrocZ350TPI

So the L98 will make a little more power but the 5.0 will still be quicker due to the weight of the car.........The L98 should get it high end I would think beacuse of the bigger motor.

87_TA

Its about people being effecient with their combos and researching what work....
The Mustangs Like the new LS1 have such an aftermarket following, they are recipe cars.. Just add (2) cups this a shake of that and an f303 cam and run 105 mph.

A good friend of mine (Mustang) guys was extreme stock racer..

Had a 93 with only exhaust mods and lightening along with lots of chassis work (3080) w/ driver. Run 12.89 @ 102.

Also had an 86 with 8000 miles , zero mods=nothing at all, even stock tires and air filter. But timing was advanced. Got that car to 13.94 with belt pulled.
What did the mags claim, 14.8-15 I think?

He was sying today he would like to pickk up a 90s 305/ 5speed
thirdgen and put it in the 13's
The HP is there, you just have to be effecient with it.

He has since with my help put ported Trickflow heads, 233/238 hyd roller and TF intake upper and lower ported on the stock 302 block. 9.3:1 compression. That car just went 11.36 @ 117 w/1.50 60 ft - still 5/speed.

We have the abilty and opertuninty to do it as well.

He also get frustrated like us with stupid stang drivers running great combos in the high 14s. Be effecient.

TPI-Formula350-

I've ran 13.21@104.63 with pretty much every possible bolton-see sig(last boltons this winter will be aluminum DS and AC delete). I do agree that a 5 speed 5.0 will respond better to boltons then an L98 Fbody. Once u do a head and cam swap all bets are off,could go eighter way.....

89IrocZ350TPI

My car runs 13.5 at 99 with full bolt ons, but I kept the TPI system and had it ported out. Better times would have came if I ditched that TPI set up and went the way TPI-Formula350 went.

87_TA

(2) good examples.

Ideal et for 99 MPH is 13.67 , your car is very effecient.

Ideal et for 104.6 is 12.93 , Deffinetly respectable for bolt on
car in my opinion.

89IrocZ350TPI

Ya if everything is matched correctly and is tuned well you will see good results. I like how the TPI set up looks but there are much better set ups out there. TPI is a little outdated

89IrocZ350TPI

How many miles that are on the car may matter as well.....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

you two go lose 200lbs off ur car and see what u run. LOL should improve nicely. similar to stang times.

25thmustang on this site has hit 12.6 on slicks at 109mph i believe with full bolt ons, stock cam/stock heads, 3.73 gears, and stock suspension in his 89 LX which is a tad lighter than the GT

my car has 150K miles on it and has a bit of a oil leak out the back of the manifold... and i'm still trappin 100mph with stock TPI and just exhaust mods... something tells me either its been rebuilt, or maybe i'm not quite that stock, or my trap speed is not right.

89IrocZ350TPI

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orr89RocZ
[B]you two go lose 200lbs off ur car and see what u run. LOL should improve nicely. similar to stang times.

25thmustang on this site has hit 12.6 on slicks at 109mph.

Holy ****.... thats very impressive. If those numbers are true it means 5.0 Stangs do respond better to bolt ons than L98 as far as 0-60, and 1/4 numbers go. Any idea what he was putting down on the rear wheels?

smithtc

iTrader: (5)

Spend money on the 350, and put it in a Fox Body Mustang.

When I was living in Florida, there was a fella at the track with a street car Mustang that cleaned house...with a 454 Chevy Big Block under hood.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

hmmm....so, put a 350 in my 3010lbs car with full boltons and i'll be faster than your comparably 5.0

wait...that's what i'm doing!

my 305 went 13.03@103mph on a 1.7x60' time. imagine what the same combo with 50 more cubes will do!

TPI-Formula350-

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mw66nova
hmmm....so, put a 350 in my 3010lbs car with full boltons and i'll be faster than your comparably 5.0

wait...that's what i'm doing!

my 305 went 13.03@103mph on a 1.7x60' time. imagine what the same combo with 50 more cubes will do! [/QUOTE

I'm assuming u went with better heads/cam/or power adder????
ur talking about a chevy 305 not a ford 302,right?

smithtc

iTrader: (5)

Makes doesn't it...

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

for right now, i'm staying with the same heads, but i'm trying to figure out what cam to go with. i trashed the cam in the 305, so i have to buy a new one. let me know what you think of this:

bone stock 416 heads (what was on the 305 that went 13.03)
either the same cam i had in the 305 which is 214/224 .442/.465
or
224/234 .465/.488

think my heads would flow the second cam? i'm limiting myself by these things right now because of pistons selection, and overall cost.

the pistons i'm running have a -21.1cc dish and with the 58cc heads and a .015 head gasket, i get 9.6:1, which is opitmal for either cam above.

when i get the money i'm going to be buying a new set of heads with a 64cc combustion chamber which will lower the c/r to 8.3:1 if i go with a standard .041 head gasket. this will be optimal for the blower i'll be buying at the same time. i'll also be running a different cam when i get all that stuff too.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

hmmm...wierd double post.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

negative, it was 12.56 at 106 on slicks 1.69 60 foot
12.9 at 108 on 17 inch street tires

25thmustang was puttin down 270rwhp i do believe with all his mods.
thats like 320ish on motor with 15% loss with stick shift

according to some calculators, i guess i'm making 270rwhp or so... which i think is closer to 250rwhp.... which is darn close to if not at 300 crank hp... and i still have stock TPI/heads/cam

89IrocZ350TPI

If you have 250wrh you are going to have around 310 at the motor. When I had my car dynoed w/full bolt ons I got 245 wrh [posted it on the TPI board]. Everyone agreed it was equal to about 305-308 at the fly wheel or in the ball park of. [20 percent loss or so with the auto]. Every dyno is different as well. My best Rear wheel numbers range from 245-250 depending on the dyno.
So with just bolt ons my numbers went from a stock rating of 230 to 306 not too bad.

89IrocZ350TPI

I looked it up you were one of the ones who agreed that 245wrh is equal to around 306 at the flywheel

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah its plus or minus... LOL its close enough. can never really tell what its gonna do.

i REALLY want to get my car dyno'd soon to see what it will do. i know a local tuner shop that has one and i'm a see what it will do.

i would think 250 rwhp is too much for my car.. i always say it has 270 crank hp. but i'm trapping 100 so i think its atleast closer to 300 now.

89IrocZ350TPI

Traping at 100 is really good for your mods posted on that new 1/4 post.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah thats what i thought! 100 mph with only headers/catback.. makes me really wonder if it is indeed bone stock. i'm the second owner and as far as i know, the tranny was all original and blew two years ago and the motor now has 150K on it and is stock L98. but is pretty clean and runs strong... it wasnt abused at all and most of the mileage was highway cruising mileage.

89IrocZ350TPI

Some L98s MUST be faster than others from the factory. Get this I have a magazine article from Auto Week 87. They tested a 230 hp/330 lb ft Iroc Z350, it ran 14.5@95. I have another one from 88 same 230 hp car, but it only ran 15.6! [Tested by Motor Trend]. I dont get it, if you look on fast autos.net they rate the 87 iroc as a 15.3 in the 1/4,but when it came out it was rated as a mid 14 seond stocker. I have seen numbers range from 14.4 to 15.6. When my car was stock it ran a 14.8 at 93, and was rated as a mid to high 14 second car,so that makes sense. I think you may have one of the "freak cars".

84RIceEater

WHo Cares... Its american. we all are on the same side... lets think ImpoRts. i personaly Love the 80's Ford Mustangs and F-Body.But i would say the 5.0 is better. .

87_TA

Something else to think about:

The 305 5-speed was great competition for the mustang but had a huge disadvantage gearing wise.
The 305 Equiped with T5 had a 2.95 first gear compared to the 3.35 of the mustang. Even though the mustang had a 3.08 rear the 3.42 gear of the F-body still could not match the TQ multiplication of the fox car in first making it =very hard to launch those cars effeciently.

Now compare a 5.7 auto to a Mustang auto and its curtains for the poor little fox. Every auto mustang I have seen stock has been dead.

Also I know the comparison was L98 vs. 5.0 bolt on.

I would say that a L98 with bolt ons would crush a 5.0 auto bolt on car.
Now compaing a Auto to Man. you usually give up at least 2-3 MPH.

Also side note, when may car was stock w/only headers and cat back being only mods.
Run 13.78 @ 98 best. With a converter and Mini ram that would have been low 13's for sure.

roughskinjrz

stock mustangs are low 14's for sure, arent 305's high 15's? and stock 350's in the 14's

87_TA

I have seen them rated several ways as mentioned in someone elses post.
I have seen 305 cars stock run well into 14s - I have also seen them rated 15s along with the other 2.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i know of a few guys who done high 14's out of their 305 stick cars... the G92 3.42/3.45 rear cars with dual cats ran on par with the L98's. mid 14's at 1-2 mph slower.

its all in the driver


wow very impressive. was that on slicks or radials? i couldnt see a non stalled street tire car going that fast... but i guess the possibility is there. i really want to put slicks on my car and make a few passes to see what she really can do

87_TA

Thanks,
That was on BFG's drags. Though they were spinning and only getting 1.89 60s
Kind of weird when I first put heads w/2400 stall on the car, same tires got me 1.69s not spinning.. Guess it was just the way the tires were being shocked.

Also forgot to mention timing was advanced to 8*.

I can't beleive that you have not put some ETs or comperable to see what it can really do. I am sure that car can pull mid 13s with some good hook and let the converter stall a little later.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah if that track is timing my mph right, and it is indeed 100mph trap speed, i should be WELL into the 13's.
i ran that white pickup (i dont know if you've seen it) that consistantly goes 13.6-7's at 97mph with a best mph of 99, from a 60mph roll with me given a slight hit, and i started creeping away at 90mph where we shut down. so i know my car has some good power to get mid 13's

but with a 60 foot of 1.88-1.93, i think that would be good enough to get me 13.7's oh well

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

How about an '87-92 L98, headers & aftermarket cat on back, RPM Air Gap intake, Holley 650 DP, simple open element air cleaner, 3.73 gears, 3000 stall.

I'll take that combo to the 5.0 with "full bolt-ons". Probably cost less, too. And, meets your subject line criteria. Of course, everybody assumes by "out run", you're talking about a straight line, 660' or 1320' contest. If you're talking about which would go the farthest on a tank full of gas...

Now, is an aftermarket cam a "bolt on"? How about heads? Some people consider those "bolt ons". Some don't.

That's why I asked.

roughskinjrz

i consider heads bolt on, a camshaft isnt

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Some would say exactly the opposite...

smithtc

iTrader: (5)

Depends on if there's a tear down after the race or not...

Apeiron

There aren't many parts that aren't held on by at least one bolt.

89IrocZ350TPI

I would not consider Heads, and a Cam swap a "bolt on". In order to do the heads and the Cam you have to dig into the block. In my opinion a bolt on should not be a long tough job, it should just bolt on with little fabrication. When I think of bolt on I think of exhaust,intake,chip, ect....

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Obviously, there is no convention here. Exhaust and PROM tuning could be considered more involved than a cam change.

So, is conversion to carb legal in this game?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

well if the L98 goes carb and so does the 5.0, does the L98 still make more power? my guess is yes

and weight is still a factor, but is the power advantage for the L98 enough to overcome that weight

89IrocZ350TPI

I think if you did both the heads and the Cam the 350 would make better power than the 5.0. As far as carb vs carb goes I am not sure. For a street car there is nothing wrong the TPI or the FI setup in the stang so why bother...

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

While its never been clearly defined, the overwhelming majority accept a "bolt on" as anything that doesn't comprise of the engine longblock.

And please refrain from citing 25thmustangs car as a bolt on example, and it clearly IS NOT a bolt on car, regardless of what he campaigns. Valve work certainly does not bolt on...

One final note, anyone that argues that the 5.0 aftermarket is larger than the TPI market isn't worth arguing with as they clearly cannot see past their own noses. 5.0 parts have a dedicated market for those sort of people because without a dedicated market they would be lost. TPI cars have the benefit of using the LARGEST AFTERMARKET SUPPORT FOR ANY ENGINE EVER CREATED, the small block Chevrolet.