RTFC

I went to see a NASA sanctioned event today and talked to Tony Gig? the director in person today. Was inquiring how he felt if I were to transition my V6 into a full race car and run his series.

1)Guy tells me he wantes to limit it to V8's, but tells me my V6 will get stomped.
2) tells me my 6piston brakes are worse than the 1LE setup, yet won't allow it
3)Then tells me to go talk to the unlimited class which is a step up from his.

Another "click' groupies afraid of some competition maybe? From a V6 even(you wouldn't think so) so whats the problem.

I told the guy flat out and showed him the car that it has run a 2:09 on street tires and full interior/creature comforts that his so called racecars are running on the same track fully striped down V8's with 100+ more HP and race tires that are ranging between 1:59 and 2:11.

Another group limiting things to their little click- Funny, I looked at every car and they were all mirror images of eachother suspension wise (same parts manufacturer choices, practically identical setups) and they all seem to group together helping eachother in the pits area like classmates. So much for outside competition- And an underdog at that.

Just goes to show how anyone that runs any sanctioned event usually is the top dog because he sets the rules to his favor.
Check out Tony's stats and you'll see I'm correct.

I never attend another NASA or CMC event.

Dean

blacksheep-1

Having run some events before, I'm gonna take an opposing point of view. There's a whole lot to be said for generalized rules. The big thing is that there are a zillion (or so) V8 mustangs and camaros out there, just asking to be raced with the addition of a roll cage and a fuel cell, so it's logical to build a series around these cars. the SCCA Miata series and the RX-7 series would be a good example.
So, say, he let's your v6 go out and you do kick butt, now what? Well every car in the field is now obsolete, everyone needs to go out and buy a v6 to be competitive, and like it or not, the v6 will take more maintenance which is less money for race day. This is not the race director being a jerk this is just the way it is. If you want to run something not in the rules, then yes, you'll have to race somewhere else. These rules are designed to allow the average joe to compete, with average affordable race cars. They have a series designed around a certain style of vehicle and insurance plays a large part as well. The club I was in got sued because some yo-yo didn't obey a red flag, crashed, and was injured. We had to increase the event liability to a million dollars, we had attorney fees and almost lost our track. All of this was passed on to the racer, which means less money for race day. The guys at the track may also have a tire rule which limits how well the cars handle, and allows you to use the tires longer, and emphasizes driver ability, which translates to ...more money for race day. These are some of the reasons why the rulesmakers do what they do, specific cars, specific rules.
My recomendation is that if you want to play in this guys sandbox, you play by his rules, NASA is a growing organization, so they must be doing something right. BTW, I don't know any of those guys and have never met them.

RTFC

Blacksheep- Motor under there rules has to be a stock motor from 82-97 in and F-body. So whats the harm of me running a stock 3.4L 4th gen motor in a third gen? like thats still going to rival the power of a 305 or a 350 V8. I'm lighter weight, and I am less power. Pound for pound, everyone on the planet knows a stock f-body V8 f-body will beat the pants off of a stock V6 f-body (with the exception of a TTA, which mine is not) in a drag race.

I still don't agree even with your veiw on things.

blacksheep-1

The harm is this, it's something else that needs to be policed, something else that needs to be dealt with and if it works, then like I said, everybody will have to have one. Look at the example of drag racing since you've brought it up. Evererybody runs normally aspirated cars, now some one wants to run a 6 banger with a blower, so they let that happen. OK, now someone wants to run a 4 banger against the v8's by using a turbo. Well everytime this has happened, the turbos became dominant, obsoleted everything else and the whole turbo 4 banger deal is expensive as heck. So everyone either has to own one, or give up, since most of us don't have a sponsor or are rich, we quit and go somewhere else. It was the same way with electronics, in my world electronics would be outlawed in drag racing, everything except an ignition box, because it has gotten crazy. you might as well race via radio control.
Every time you make an alowance for something different, there is a cost involved, whether it's more tech tools, more tech guys, whatever, it increases the cost of running the race, and this all gets passed to the racer.

Souseless

Dean
Even if they let you in with the V6, you have modified your suspension, brakes, etc beyond the rules for CMC. You could however run in American Iron ( I think). I am hoping to to get a competition license in a few years if the AI series is still around. That is the direction that I am taking the car for now.

RTFC

Souseless, (ps Whats your real name anyways, we speak enough I feel embarassed not to know)

My point to this thread is not that I want want want to join CMC and have my heart heil bent on it, its the point that anytime a new sanction comes along, its a guy with a certain car and money to make his own rules to fit his own needs. I fully am supportive of capitalism in business, yet racing is racing. My suspension is on par with there rules easily, I looked at every 3rd gen there. As for my brakes, the head guy himself told me to my face that the 1LE's were better than my 6 pistons and that I would be at a loss with those brakes (If you could imagine the look on my face was exactly like it is when the kid behind the counter at Autozone asks me it my car is a stick or auto when I am buying wiperblades) Like hes tried them personally on a 3rd gen? and is an expert on the subject? I love guys like that But even to that, he himself said I would be at a disadvantage with those brakes- he's the boss, and its his judgement, so the brakes in his voiced opinion would no give me an unfair advantage.

As for power (blacksheep), I am not trying to run a "turbo" V6 or a supercharged 4 cylinder to match a V8. So again, your senerio does not pan out in my view. Its a n/a stock V6 vs. n/a supposedly stock V8s- stock motor under CMC rules.

What it boils down to is the guy races in his own sanctioned event and wins becasuse he is king of the rules. I like to race, I like to win, but in a case like CMC, not against the king.

It makes no sense why he would not atomatically consider a stock 3rd gen V6 as eligible, or even a stock iron duke for that matter if thats what the person desired. It fits the "stock motor" criteria.

He's afraid of the unknown beating him at his own rules. He jumped around so much in the 2 minutes I spoke with him- he really didn't know what to say because I hit him with something he knows nothing about and tried to pretend at first that I'd get creamed. I told him twice that the car ran a 2:09 the way it sits with the 2.8, street tires, and full trim weight- I don't think he believed me the first time, and the second time told me If I think the car has potential of being that fast to go into an unlimited class.

Are you getting the point of my post now? the king and his rules. Most events I know don't have the rulemaker driving in his own competition. Not HSR, not VARA, not SCCA, not NASCAR, not anyone. I know NASA's getting more popular and the CMC is growing hence why I inquired. By the way, the fastest 3rd gen had LS1 rear brakes on it- go figure,. I don't know the exact criteria to binders, but I would guess if the 3rd gen had beat his Mustang that the guy would be protested.

AlkyIROC

NHRA Pro Stock. Everyone has 500 cid NA engines. Glidden used a turbo V6 back in the 80's and tromped on all the mega motors. NHRA banned his car even though he complained saying his car was more "stock" than anything else in the class.

Good and bad thing about specific rules is that it creates a field where nobody has an overpowering advantage. It also creates a field where everyone is close to the same. That's the trouble with heads up drag racing. If all the vehicles are operating at the peak performance, thay're all running roughly the same times.

Another good example is the IROC series. Every car is set up the same and it becomes a driver's race.

If you don't like they're rules then create your own club to race. With little to no rules, someone will find an unfair advantage and will dominate the class so much that everyone else will either have to spend more money to be competative or will just drop out of the class. There are a bunch of Pro Street racers on the west coast using NOS and blowers that are deciding not to run any more because a couple of turbo cars are now out of reach for their performance. One has said for what it has cost him so far and how much it will cost him to beat the turbo cars, it would have been cheaper to just build a Pro Mod and make it street legal.

Other than safety rules, specific rules are there for each class to make the racing fair, economical and equal. If the rules for that class allow V6's and race director won't let you race then contact the head office to complain.

Even SCCA has specific rules about what you're allowed to do in each class. Too many changes to your car and you get bumped up into the next class where you'll probably be the worst car in that class unless you do even more improvements.

When in doubt about rules being quoted by a tech or race director, ask to see the rule book.

84firebird383

I have to agree with RTFC. I know absolutely nothing about the road racing circuts that you guys are talking about, but if the rules say "any" stock motor from an 82-97 f body then a 2.8 or 3.4 definelty would or should be with in the rules.

blacksheep-1

I will agree with you on 1 point, the owner or race director of a series does not need to compete in, or own a car in, his own series.
Keep in mind the rules aren't supposed to be exclusive, they're designed to be inclusive. This is why some of the most successful series run near stock rules with just the addition of a safety devices.

Souseless

Dean
I see your point, but if you want to race wheel to wheel there will be some group of rules that you need to adhere to. CMC rules are specific in what is allowed for a motor, for 82-92 305, and for 93-97 the lt1 with a restrictor plate and there is a maximum HP for each motor. I did not realize that the series owner was in your neck of the woods. CMC just started running in my area last year in Virginia. Calling this close is a stretch since I live in Buffalo NY but I do like Summit Point and will drive there. At least I wont have to deal with him directly racing with me. I wish they would start running at Watkins Glenn so I can be at the track in a mere 3 hours.

At the local oval there is a TQ Midget series and the owner of the series has two cars running and winning regularly so I see the point. I really want to go wheel to wheel road racing so I will need to put up with a set of rules eventually that will **** me off but what are the choices given the desire to race. Just have to choose the rules that are the least bothersome.

Ken Cavanaugh

RS Chris

It seems pretty clear, if you want race in this series or others you have to comply with the rules. If you don't like the rules of one series just find another one that will allow your car to compete.

The point of allowing or using v-6s has been talked about a few times before on the CMC message boards, but it conflicts with the rules and and would necesitate several changes just to allow one car. The rules for this series are pretty much set in stone as far as changes, the only chenges made are usually for safety.

nape

iTrader: (1)

The point of CMC racing is to have the cars be so close and only allow a limited amount of parts that it becomes a driver's race and not merely a measure of how much money you can throw at the car.

Dean: You wouldn't want to run your car in CMC anyway, or any W2W racing event, there is way too much possibility for contact. Well, I guess you could if you wanted to, but your car is way too nice to beat up like that.

Personally, I just won an '87 TA roller on ebay to use to put a car together for AI. If you want to run your car, AI would be more your speed as far as rules go. Once again though, I would suggest finding a rust free chassis and building that instead, your car is way too nice to take racing where accidents can and do happen.

redimpss5

Hmm, many ways to look at this.