I think they are one time use only bolts on these motors. I could be wrong.

 

I used the 4th gen Camaro p/s hose (which is the common advise I found at this site). The metal tube fits good but the rubber hose needs a little persuasion to install.

 

That's what I did, as well.

Been busy pulling the a-arms for QA1 ext ball joints, AND, Indycar is in my backyard this weekend!! Andretti needs to sign Alonso.

 

One of my favorite build threads and probably the biggest motivation i had to find another maui blue Formula. Amazing car. Cant wait to see more updates.

 

Thank you. The project to get this (version 3.0) on the road has unfortunately stalled for the last couple of months.

Waiting for the wiring expert to become available (two weeks has turned into two months) and having very little (actually zero) time myself to do the last few details, and being met with annoying setbacks when I have found the time.

I do not like being dependent on others, but right now, I am depending on my buddy Joe, who has honestly been unavailable due to his schedule and "out of town" status.

SUPPOSEDLY...Tomorrow is the day that he'll be over and we can get the ball rolling once again. I still intend on having this Formula on the road before the end of this driving season.

Thanks again, punzak9, and to all, for your continuing interest.

 

Got some decent progress yesterday. Joe got about 3/4 of the C100 harness figured out and labeled. We got the LS3 engine harness routed through the passenger side fender. And I got the motor mounts installed. We have an eye towards dropping the engine in.

 

So its taken my buddy Joe, about 7-8 hours to get the C100 about 97 percent sorted. With his help, the ball is once again rolling.

The fiberglass AC delete heater box has managed to be a pain in the *** at just about every step of the way...

Motor mounts are in.

With temporary power, Joe has activated all internal and external lighting, and raised the headlights. Haven't figured out how to make them go back down yet.

 

Great stuff!!!

 

Test fit the motor, and don't break the brake line. You need to verify that you are OK (pan to k-member) before preceding. If you need alterations, you can be doing those while waiting on wiring. Pics of how it sits, please.

 

That's funny.


I can definitely see exactly what you mean. I had to do quite a bit of impromptu re-bending of the brake line over on the passenger side.


I set the motor down in the bay last week, but couldn't get the through bolts/holes to line up. Went and got a couple of decent pry bars to assist, but then started another work week, etc., etc., haven't had time to get back at it. From the looks of it, it's going to clear, but it will be very, very tight between the cross member/brake line, and the pan.


I will update with pictures after a successful test fitting. Wiring expert is supposed to come back out later this week.


Thanks again for this and all your input, TEDSgrad.

 

Highly recommend you cut and re-box (re: Post 288). It's not that difficult.
Any vibration and your ECM could pull timing out! Those knock sensors can be sensitive. Plus, if you ever have to pull the motor once again....

 

The only reason to notch your K-member is to allow clearance for overhead engine install. If you install the engine and k-member together by lowering the car onto it, you don't need to notch anything. Except for the AC compressor if you're using the 4th gen one.

Get yourself a lift! You'll love it! Or do you already have one?? I haven't browsed your threads in a while.

 

I don't have a lift. And I am having all sorts of problems getting this motor to line up. I'm completely frustrated.

It seems that the the bolt holes just wont line up. Too high in the rear - too low in the front, and by the time I'm even close, the whole engine needs to scootch to one side a half inch, but is already resting and impossible to move.

As far as the notching of the K-member, it was my understanding that if I'm not running AC, I would have no problems. However, given the fact that I am using adapted motor mount brackets specific to my exhaust system (which appear as though they position the engine lower than the stock 4th gen brackets) some sort of notching, or replacing of the K-member may be in the cards after all.

This sucks.

 

In those cases I insert a long punch through one hole and into the engine mount, and then use it to wedge the engine into place. Once the punch is through the mounts then chase it with the bolt (punch will fall out on it's own when bolt pushes it out). Probably have to use a hammer to do this.

If that doesn't work then install the mounts first and then bolt to the engine. This is how I did the second mount with my engine.

 

Frustration is normal; there is pleasure in overcoming it!

Notching the k-member is not difficult, and solves many issues now and into the future, and no additional cost. Aftermarket k-member is not needed and may be weaker. This is one stock part you should stick with.
As mentioned, you could remove the k-member and re-install with motor w/out notching. This can work, but is still tight, makes the brake line difficult, and doesn't help with any future repairs. It's always best to have ample room for movement!
Good you're using mounts specific to your exhaust. Not familiar with your specific set-up (like what I've seen on TGO), but there is always some tweaking needed. Especially related to the y-pipe.
You've got a lot of help, here on the board. You'll gitt'er done! Pics greatly help our ability to understand what your dealing with.

Aaron Rogers: R E L A X

 

Yup, some cars for some reason, need a little shaved off of the back bottom center of the K member for pan clearance.

 

I just went through your whole thread. If I were you, I would pull the pan off and strip the PC off that baffle. If the baffle was already in oil at one point, the PC is eventually going to come off being inside the engine, between the heat and the actual oil. Then you're going to suck it up and it is going to go in the oil pump. That baffle is covered in oil all the time, it isn't going to rust. If you take that pan off while it is out of the car it is going to save you a headache in the long run.
I know people are going to disagree with me, and I have yet to see powder hold up over time on a car unless it is a trailer queen. I read all these ads saying how great it is and it can't chip etc. It does.

 

As you can see, we notched the **** out of it. And still I was unable to line up the engine. always ended up with the the engine dropping as far as it can go, and still needing to drop further in order to get a through-bolt in, and/or the engine needing to be nudged to the left or right, but with no wiggle room to do so.


Now I'm trying this approach, which seems a little more promising (dropping the motor onto the clam shells, gives more room to maneuver). I have figured out that it looks like I'll have to take the passenger side clam shell off, and get the driver side in first, then figure out which way to go on the passenger side.

It could possibly be done, I don't know. But I realize with certainty that I can't do it myself, off my back. A lift or a pit would be great - or at least another set of hands. When I go to work is when everyone else is getting off work. I Can't hold the motor where i need it AND thread a bolt because the legs from the engine hoist are in my way, and my arms aren't gumby.

Really felt like taking a sledge hammer to this today.

 

OK, this part is just my free opinion (worth as much): Go to your wife and apologize for all the stress and frustration you are bringing into the house from the garage. Tell her she is more important than the car, and thank her for her support thus far. Go out on a date with her, share your frustration with her, and ask her to help alleviate some of the stress . She will be happy that you looked to her for help and support .

Now, coming back to the car with a clear head: Notching looks good, heater core not the problem for you, watch the wiper motor area on install, and remove the starter. Just make sure nothing is contacting (I'm sure you've done this already). The triangle gusset (k-member to frame) looks scratched on driver's side. Accessory hitting? Something as simple as the alternator bolt hitting that gusset can throw everything off (see pic). I removed gussets for install.
Clamshell on the mounts is not a bad idea, though I would try loosening the mounts on the k-member first (easier to tighten if you get it in). If you are really not contacting anything (we all make mistakes, here, triple check), I would suspect the mount positions on the k-member if nothing is really hitting. Keep the mounts loose, get one side in, then see if wiggling around will get the other side to drop in.

Keep the pics coming. We'll get you there. You're not the first to struggle at this point.

 

Are the cradle mounts installed correctly? Pure guess, not sure what it is supposed to look like.

 

My memory is coming back....

 

Yes. That is what we tried today. We were able to get the driver side loosely bolted on. However, the passenger side still needs to come down and nudge towards the driver side about 1/2, which is more than any wiggle room allows.

I explained this predicament to Holley Tech, and they advised me to return the cradle brackets for a new set. I didn't do this yet because I have a strong suspicion that the new set will be identical to the old ones.

I have heard that, say on a stock LS car, like a 4th Gen F-Body, that the passenger side mounts higher than the driver side. I don't know if that's true, but it would certainly explain the issues I've been having. If that is the case, these Holley brackets do not appear to allow for any such variance.

It just seems that the brackets, whether mounted to the K-member, or mounted to the engine, are just set to narrow to line up properly. I'm hoping it won't come down to making the holes on the K-member bigger/elongated.

I figured it's best to try and get some more information before I start chasing ghosts by ordering more brackets. I wanted to call Hawks, but it was already past 5:00 on the east coast. BADNBLK is running the same Hooker true dual exhaust that I'll be running, and which these cradle brackets are specific to. I PM'ed him. Can call Hawks tomorrow.

 

Thanks, TED. Very astute. But I promise, I'm not giving my wife a hard time. Not that I'm above it, but she gets home right as I'm going to work, so there's no time for me to take my frustrations out on her. Probably should give her some more time though.


Alternator bolt has rubbed against the triangle gusset, like you said, but only in the course of getting into place. It clears and is not the issue. Starter hasn't been an issue. Its as if the brackets want to rest slightly wider than their respective holes on the K-member will allow.

 

Much more logical and objective assessment - both in tone and content. You'll get there.

On the pass side, you could try shimming the top two of the clamshell bolts and the outboard side of the mount on the k-member. This will bring the clamshell down and in slightly along with moving the mount inboard as well. 1/2" seems a lot, but if only a 1/4" will get a punch in, then you could wedge the rest inline. It's free and reversible, won't take much time, and you'll find out how close you might actually get (learn something from the try). Use grade 8 washers.

 

Did you install the engine mount upside down on the engine block? If I remember right, the bolt pattern was symmetrical but the center line of the mount was not. There was a top side and a bottom side to the ls mount on engine block. Then again my memory might be wrong. That's how it is when you get older. LOL

 

By the way, if you move this thread to the ls swap forum then you'll get a lot more input from knowledgeable people.

 

I had the rubber bushings replaced with poly ones. The bushings are flush on one side and have a bit of exposed metal (neck) around the though bolts on the other. I have the side with the metal neck facing the rear on both sides, per the manufacturer. Is it possible that the bushings are in the clam shell backwards/upside down, thus throwing everything off

 

are my clam shells upside down???

 

Passenger side might be upside down. Just unbolt clamshell from engine, rotate 180 degrees and bolt it back on.

 

Same mounts I just used with poly LS1 clamshells we dropped it in passenger side bolt went right in with a lil wiggle driverside we then had to pry on the clamshell pretty hard but bolt was in within 10mins.

 

From your photos and descriptions I can tell you that the orientation of your clamshells and inserts is incorrect.

The clamshell cage orientation is correct on the engine when the stepped end of the cages is towards the bottom of the engine, the flat ends go up. The passenger side clamshell is upside down in your photo with them sitting on the mounting brackets.

On to the inserts themselves...they are not symmetrical and the core sticks out further beyond the poly on one end than the other. The end with the greater amount of metal core protruding from the end is to point towards the front of the car on the passenger side and towards the rear of the car on the driver side. You will have to open up the clamshells and flop the inserts around in them as needed to get the orientation correct.

This scenario is exactly the way GM designed the mounts to be used on 4th-gen F-bodies. This image should show you everything you need...this is the driver side mount installed on the engine, notice how the insert protrudes more out of the right side of the clamshell towards the rear of the car. The passenger side should be the opposite with the insert protruding more towards the front of the car.

 

If what you say is correct, then I should only have to remove the passenger side clam shell and flip it 180 degrees.

The reason I have them the way they are is because I unsure how to orient them originally, and ENS, the manufacturer of the bushings, said that the exposed metal side [of the bushing] was to be facing the rear on both the passenger and driver side...something to do with pre-loading of the engine torque or something...

Also, Tyler, at Hawks said today that both exposed metal sides were supposed to be facing the rear. I don't give those guys more credibility than you by any means, I just would feel more comfortable with more consistency. I'll probably just go ahead and flip 'em just to see if I can thereby get the motor in.

Thank you for posting that.

 

I imagine GM did it this way to avoid having left and right side engine mount assemblies, which would allow them to increase production volume of a single engine mount for cost reduction. Since they orientated the the rubber insert the same in all the mounts it explains why the long end of the insert points towards the rear on the driver side and towards the front on the passenger side once the mounts are attached to the engine.

 

YAHOO! It's in.

I flipped around the passenger side clam shell and could see right away that that was the key. It went in easy. Too easy. As in didn't even require a second set of hands easy. As in I'd feel like less of a dunce had it been a little more difficult.

In my defense, I took the stock mounts to a shop to deal with the original rivets and install the poly bushings. I then got advise from the poly bushing manufacturer to orient both exposed metal cores toward the rear...

Here are some pics of how the engine sits, loosely bolted in.

 

Congratulations. Trust me, a lot of guys get confused on the installation of the mounts/inserts. Look at the struggles guys go though installing them on 4th-gen F-bodies over on ls1tech.com...half of them are installed backwards and/or upside-down.

 

Linson,
Glad you got it figured out. The build is looking great, looking forward to seeing it finished.

 

Trick?
Or Treat?

Progress report, please.