Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Hello guys,

I have thought about the idea to just get a LS1 6 speed fourth gen and call it a day, instead of going lsx t56 in my 91 Z.

I went out to look at a 60k mile 2002 SLP Z28 Camaro with a 6 speed. It was a very nice car. I took it on a test drive and was very modest, as the sales person was in the passenger seat. When I did get on the throttle I was in 2nd gear and gave it WOT from a 30mph roll up to about 65mph. I expected it to throw my head back into the seat. I was wrong, it felt about like my 350/T5 Iroc, but it just continued to pull in the upper RPMS. Quick but not "fast".


I would have been a little disappointed to go through the hassle to do this swap in my 91 with those results.

With all that said, is the stock "all mighty LS1" really that all mighty? Or is it simply the potential of the motor that makes it so desirable? Should a stock LS1 throw your head into the seat?

I'm asking this because I have thought about installing a mostly stock 5.3 or LS1. If what I experienced is true, then that means I need to take a step back and plan/budget for heads and cam and other performance upgrades.

I'm not knocking on any one else's car, just trying to figure out what's best for my situation.

Any guys out there that swapped from modded 305 or stock 350 to a mostly stock LSX? Any Ls1 fourth gen guys out there? Any input is welcome.

Thanks

Dakota W.

From what I've read, the only reason to own an LS1 is how well they handle boost. If I were to get an ls series, it would be either an ls2 or ls7.

86White_T/A305

Take a ls1 m6 car out for a proper test drive with someone that has 1 if you can.A second gear pull from 30 isnt going to throw you in the back of the seat in stock form..try that in 1st gear and you wouldnt be here asking to do the swap or not

I had a stock ls1 t56 in my car and it put shame to my 355 and my previous 383 in just the joy of driving the car.now that Im modding my lq4 slowly..it only get better with every mod.

Ill put it this way..how many people do you see switching out of a lsx to go back to a modded 305/350sbc in a street/strip car?

I dare you to do the swap even with a stock ls1/t56 with good exhuast,take the car on its maiden voyage and say it didnt make you smile and wish you did it sooner.See how quick you will have the itch for more when you hit limiter at 6600rpm and its still pulling mph.I seriously doubt you will want to go back to 350tpi unless you just want low rpm shear torque and that is fun and all..but gets old.I only regret my swap when I lose a race to someone that has a faster lsx car or some other modern v8 with more mods and Im thinking..hmm another 20-30 hp can be had easily if go another step further.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

It's the potential that makes the LS1 attractive as a swap engine.
Personally, I like the 6.0L truck engines. The 6.0L will reward you with more power and torque with same mods.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Ignore your improperly calibrated Butt Dyno, and go with facts.

LS1 > TPI.

Add a Cam and you'll get way more out of that LS1 than you would a TPI car. Its all in the head flow, the LS1's stock heads are almost like dropping a set of AFR's onto a SBC.

86White_T/A305

A stock ls1 isnt the best choice for boost.Id rather go with a 5.3/6.0 iron block and jam 10-12psi on the stock bottom end which has been quite a potent combo with a good tune.

Ls7's are nice and all but still expensive..build a 408 cheaper and make the same or more power with the right heads/cam combo.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Ls1 has a flat torque curve and really doesnt make a great amount of torque, not as peaky as a tpi car which will have more peak torque but nothing anywhere else. Ls1 has strong mid to upper rpm power. 4500-6000 rpm. With bolt ons and tune they really wake up, +40 hp/tq sometimes. But the flat curve isnt going to give a huge accel rush. The car is quick but it just wont feel like it.

I love my 4th gen but its not that exciting if you are looking for torque rush accel feelings. Add nitrous for that. Or boost

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Flow-not the Progressive woman.
Add in throttle response and gas mileage and it's a winner. DIY swap is cool and worthy of your time.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My tpi based cars had more throttle response than the ls1 but then again its all how its tuned

And its not just flowbench cfm either. Set of 243 ls heads may flow 250's cfm on a bench. Afr 195's sbc heads flow 280's but they both may support same power or less for the sbc, using less cam to boot

86White_T/A305

Tpi and Ls motors are 2 very different animals when built up..both can be hella fun or just lack luster.

I just hated the famous 'tpi brickwall" after 4500rpm the fun was over but made a sweet off idle smoke show and getting traction middle of 2nd gear or maybe chirp 3rd if i manually shifted the 700r4.

Now I still get a off idle smokeshow..but that carries on well into 3rd gear and I feel like Im just cruising but look my speedo and realise I need to back off.

Stock 4thgens were just that.."quick" but certainly not fast.If you know someone with a modded 4thgen to compare vs stock you just tested..its night and day.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, not everyone keeps the DBW like I did.

86White_T/A305

This is true..I can say it took some tuning to get my throttle response to be as crisp as my 383 was.Most tuners spend the time tuning wot and afr.The fine adjustments require some effort.

cosmick

The SS you drove probably had the lame 3.42:1 axle, which is a gas mileage gear with the way those stock T56s were geared. Even a factory original LS1 needed a 4.10:1 axle, and I've read reports of that combo still returning 25 MPG regularly.
Read reports from guys with auto-trans LS1s, they all report a hole in the LS1 torque curve after a WOT upshift into second, with stock converter.
Around 2500-3500 RPM is where a stock L98 was at its best, but its where a stock LS1 is at its worst. Camming an L98 fairly well helped that, but camming an LS1 only hurts torque at 2500-3500, even with a popular entry-level cam like a 224.
You need gearing to multiply the reduced engine torque, and you need gearing to get the revs up into the range where the LS1 has the horsepower advantage. Torque makes a car feel quick, but horsepower is what makes a car truly fast.
Over on LS1Tech you can read where Tony Mamo and Patrick G discuss the runner lengths of the intake manifolds. They even get into the closing point of the intake valves-cam timing. The LS car intakes are all the right lengths for torque peak around 4800 RPM, and power peak around 6300 RPM. This matches well with a cam that closes the intake valves around 42 to 44 degrees after bottom dead center.
Stock LS1s seem safe to shift at 6800, but at those revs I would feel it best to play it safe with upgraded springs, pushrods, and rod bolts. Or just limit yourself to 6500, which is known "safe".

my88transam

to the OP, if you are looking to stay on a relatively cheap budget with an ls1 swap, do yourself a favor and at least swap in a cam while the motor is out without accessories and some headers. a 228 ish cam like one that texas speed has or the vrx4 cam (228/230 cam) by vengeance racing and a good exhaust with longtube headers will put you in the neighborhood of 400 rwhp or 470ish at the crank with a GOOD TUNE. Great power for an otherwise stock motor and still easily get over 20mpg with a 6 speed. No need to spend gobs of money on aftermarket parts if you don't want to, don't get me wrong you'll make big power with aftermarket but you dont have to. I also agree that upgraded gears like 4:10's would make a big difference with the fun factor.

cam-

Id go for pinks with a stock M6 LS1 against a tpi 305 anyday. Stock vs stock I bet I could still out 1/4 ya leaving in third

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yup, under 3000 things are pretty sluggish. I started with a auto 2.73 gear car and you really feel the lack of low end on stock converter. Really feel the rpm drop on the 2-3 shift. No other changes except a mild 3200 stall, the car picked up a ton. Whole new driving experience at the track. 2-3 shift bog was greatly improved.
Converter makes all the difference. When i finally went 3.73 gears i only picked up 1 tenth in the 1/4 mile. Thats it. Wasnt worth the cost of gears and install imo.


If you want a torquey setup, get a cowl hood and throw on a truck intake. And or add cubes. My sierra 6.2l is a monster down low

Rolling Thunder

What you describe is an important lesson. You cant really feel hp you feel acceleration (G's). HP is just a mathematical way to describe how much work a motor can do in a given period of time. What you actually feel is torque which is a force (acceleration = Force/Mass). HP is just like you said a motors ability to generate the same force at higher RPMs (which is what really matters on the 1/4 mile). Since the LS1/L98 produce about the same amount of torque in cars that have a similar weight I wouldn't expect you to feel much of a difference. If you want to FEEL fast just put in steeper gears and build torque.

That said LS1 are great motors. Compared to our old SBCs it's much lighter, more efficient (which means that they have awesome potential), and I dare say even more durable is some aspects.

Dakota W.

But not a tpi 350?

cam-

In terms of performance LS1>TPI period. LS1>SBC, in fact LS1> ALL small blocks it is the KING of small blocks right now. Anyone who thinks differently is bs'ing themselves

Heres the best we could muster with a TPI set up and we worked it for years. My very FIRST LS1 womped the hell out of this car.




OP wheres the track vid and time slip of your 5.7 TPI?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That is an inaccurate statement. I would put up any of the 9-15 deg sbc race builds against any of the best lsx stuff. When you get into full race potential the cost and difference is negligible

cam-

Set the budget. I use LS, you use SBC... We'll see whos more accurate

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

On an all out build there is no "budget"

For 2000$, yes ls wins. You need to define the terms to make that comparison but simply stating king of all sbc?? Thats inaccurate. King of what? Maybe bang for buck for street strip guys, but not race world. How many lsx run 5's in the 1/4? I dont believe there are any. Andy jenson's single turbo sbc went 5.94...

cam-

True. The game is how fast do you want to spend. But aside from the Monaco living oligarch elites with endless pockets Im going to reach out on a limb here.... and sort of guess that most of us do not have 300k engine build budgets.

Under 50k and id still wager some serious money on LS > sbc

But stock component for component? This argument is moot. For guys trying to build a 12 second DD that will hold together? LS is hard to beat. For guys wanting 9 second reliably performing boosted cars? The right turbo on the right stock short LS does this with ease.... and lasts.... on STOCK short blocks too I might add. Heck even the cam can be stock and with the right turbo it will perform very well. So to suggest that yes with exotic race prepped aftermarket everything ( block, crank, rods, heads, intake, management sys, etc etc etc. ) then sure sbc has almost 60 years of race development behind it and budget aside has gone faster than the fastest LS thus far.... But we are still working these things out. Most of us do not really care to go faster than 160 trap speed or low 8's in the 1/4 and this too can be done with a STOCK short block, and its getting easier by the day too. Wheres the stock short TPI engines that can even come close to this?

my88transam

We've already had this sbc vs lsx pissing contest on a different forum. LSx are great motors and clearly what this guy is considering. But back to topic, if you're worried about torque with a bigger cam don't be, with an M6 a friend of mine just broke his built 10 bolt with moser axles, 33 spline, etc while doing a burnout and went to do the 2nd-3rd shift and it broke while he's running the vrx6 cam (238/240 duration) and 410 gears. not saying there aren't more torquey motors but clearly they don't lack any if set up right, and having a 6 speed helps.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Agreed 100%

cam-

Imagine what the fastest LS based build will be in 40 plus years.... crazy. Not that it will likely carry that far. LT stuff is already looking killer.... 400 plus whp bone stock Vette 5.7


Wonder what the hiperf variations will put down in a coupla years.... then add aftermarket.... Crazy days ahead yee haww

cosmick

That's not low-RPM torque, that's shock-loading.
And how do you get 33 spline axles for a ten-bolt? The Ford 9" and ford 8.8" both have ten-bolt ring-gears, but we don't call those "ten-bolts"

my88transam

And now were nitpicking responses. My point is there is plenty of torque, enough to lift the front drivers side tire and break a sway bar at the drag strip from body flex, the car is a terror all the way through the powerband. I didn't come to argue. As far as the rear end goes the center section was rebuilt as well, still had the 7.5 inch ring gear that the 10 bolt had which is what I assume broke since that was the weak point. But it just had upgraded moser axles with 33 splines if I remember correctly.

Dakota W.

I've yet to hear an lsx that sounds as good as an lb9 or l98 or even an lt1 for that matter. So in the aspect of fun and butt-dyno's sbc is king.

Z28FAST1

With junkyard LS builds running 8s and pushing close to 1000HP I don't see why anyone would dump $$$$$ in a sbc/BBC unless they plan on going faster. I guess I'm a sucker for those budget builds that whoop on expensive SBC/BBC trailer queens costing 10 times more.

cosmick

Okay, the second half was nit-picking, but still you're claiming the impossible. For the 7.5 / 7.625 you can't get more than 28 splines. 30-spline can't be done. Not at any price.
Lifting a tire doesn't prove off-idle torque, either. It proves a hard launch with good traction, and a hard launch can come from dumping the clutch at 7000 RPM. Rolling along at 5 MPH in first gear, with any LS1 and any cam, any gears and any tires, just standing on the gas won't lift a tire. A loose converter might do it, but then we're still not considering engine torque.
Please stop using bad examples as "evidence" that isn't really supported at all.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

As long as there are racing classes allowing lsx or even lsx only classes, development will continue. I hope it does. Dart made a lsx block now so options are available for stronger blocks from a few vendors.

I'm not sure i like direct injection. I am not sure how much stock injectors can support but if you need more fuel and have to upgrade those, its going to be similar to diesel prices or more. Thats gonna kill budget builds. Plus that presents a whole new level of tuning learning curve lol it will take time just like anything else

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for all of the input guys. I read through all of the posts and learned a good bit. I didn't create this to start a LSX VS L98 argument, as I know the LSX is the better motor.

I did get my answer from this thread and it makes sense, plus I did a little more research on my own. Like said above it is due to the torque. Torque makes a car feel fast, while horsepower actually makes it go fast. That is why at a 30mph roll in 2nd gear, I wasn't really impressed.

So I am thinking that I want to go with a 6.0 truck motor for the little bit more torque it provides, and then install a good cam before putting the motor in the car. I can't wait. And I highly doubt I will regret putting that 6.0 LSX in there.

25th327RS

iTrader: (2)

So I am thinking that I want to go with a 6.0 truck motor for the little bit more torque it provides, and then install a good cam before putting the motor in the car. I can't wait. And I highly doubt I will regret putting that 6.0 LSX in there.[/QUOTE]

Love my very basic 6.0 swap. The power is what we seem to go for in the beginning, but the street manners/drive-ability are really what make the car a much more enjoyable car to drive.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Good choice. Try to get an engine with the rectangle port heads. I have a friend that went 10.86 with just a cam swap and a carburetor. Went 10.50 after porting the heads. Camshaft was a TSP 233/239 v2 cam on 112. That's a mild street cam right there. You won't go as fast with a stick shift but it gives you an idea just how hard the 6.0L can run with simple mods.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Just an observation, but I notice many people talk about torque and horsepower like they are divorced concepts, like you have to emphasize one over the other. The truth is both go hand in hand because your engine is a rotating assembly. It doesn't matter if you talk about torque or horsepower -- as long as rotating engine speed is in the conversation. Both torque and HP are interrelated by engine speed.

HP = (Torque * RPM) / (5252)
where Torque is units of lb-ft

A car with a lot of torque can throw your head back. A car with a lot of HP can throw your head back. Why? Because the concepts are interrelated. The street engines we use are pretty much limited to 6000 - 7000 RPM (or 5000 RPM if you have a TPI ), so this means a high HP street car usually makes big torque too. Exceptions are when people build a poor combination that can't produce a broad torque curve. So unless you have a "user malfunction", you should be able to build a LSx engine with more torque than a TPI and make a lot more power too.

UnstableAviator

I agree with the OP, a stock LS1 car is a 13 second turd. Nothing super impressive there if you've been around modified engines for any time at all.

The beauty of the LS, however, really starts to shine with ANY mods at all. Headers, gears, tune, LS6 (or better) intake, and you're off to the races. Start talking cam and cylinder head changes and you'll quickly see what all the fuss is about.

I can see why some folks love the "low end punch" of the TPI. The butt dyno is really impressed by the grunt from low speed. It takes a change in driving style to appreciate a higher revving LS. Honestly, below 4,000rpm my H/C/I LS1 is not impressive. Above that though....man oh man. Mountains of torque, throttle response, and SPEED. The way my car gains MPH now is just nuts compared to my previous 383 SBC's. 122.3 in the 1/4, and I'm still working on my driving and tune. Look at mw66nova trapping 126.x with a 370" engine. That type of performance was just not something a pump gas small block (or even big block) was capable of just 12 years ago when I started hot rodding. And unlike my old SBC...I drive my LS everywhere with ease. 220 miles this weekend in fact. 20+mpg.

cam-

LMAO I couldnt agree more. As I see it, its breaks down like this. Everyone who has an LS ( actually owns one ) seems happier than a pig in slop. Everyone who doesnt... HATES on LSx builds, most likely because of what you said above about whoop *** LOL.


As for "low end punch"? Well anyone who wants to feel what low end punch is all about is welcome by here anytime and i'll take you for a ride. 6.2L of VVT mild cam GRUNT lemme tell ya.... you have no idea

Anyways I seldom get drawn into bench racing so Im done with this thread but have fun fellas, whatever engine you run, thats the key dont take things too seriously its supposed to be fun right?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Indeed! Love my 6.2 vvt. If you really want a torquey ls motor, add cubes and a truck intake. Vvt would also be nice if you could find a 6.2 take out but using good heads and smallish cam will yeild nice results

STREETDEMON

my 6.0L with an F13 cam is awesome through the rev range. its also a +4 so it comes in a little quicker.

the tuner was giving me grief about an ls1 with a ms3 making like 8 more hp than me on the same day. then i pointed out that my torque curve was bigger and flatter....peak was 35ft/lbs more and the torque curve showed the same.

i wanted a streetable car with a lope and good traffic manners. in the end, that's exactly what i have. people will argue over ford vs chevy vs mopar vs whatever, sb vs bb, boosted vs na, etc. in the end, do your research and build what you want!