86White_T/A305

^Agreed lol.

Got my cutout ready to go with my headers.If the headers arent enough..the cutout should help with a few more ponies uptop.Cant wait for friday to hear this thing open header lol.

abadv8

I had all of this typed up, but hesitated to post it because I was concerned that it would start a bigger argument. I'm not going to comment on my financial situation, but let's say that I can, in fact, afford the SW headers. With that out of the way, please enjoy the the following... and I sincerely hope there is something to take away from my perspective. (feel free to critique my logic here... I could use the feedback for presentations)




For what you pay, the cost of manufacture, and the platform they’re used on, they're fine…

On the comment about consumer goods, I have been fortunate enough to visit a lot of the places that make the things we use every day? Asus is headquartered in Taiwan. I was there last summer. It felt like I was in a US industrial park; clean, efficient, and profitable. And they're happy to have our business.

I’ll be in Japan again tomorrow. Remember the “cheap, poor quality” Japanese made automobiles from the 80’s and 90’s? Not that way anymore, is it? They are sticklers for completing a job correctly. And we should all understand at this point that most of the advances in North American manufacturing quality control over the last two decades have emanated from Japan.

China is making leaps and bounds in their manufacturing practices, and with an exploding middle class the environmental legislation is coming. So, it won't be cheaper to manufacture in China for too much longer. In addition, we’ll have more players in the middle class arena demanding goods and services. So, costs will continue to rise.

What's my point? Goods will always be more and more expensive, auto parts notwithstanding. The more people in the world that can afford the goods, the greater the demand, and thus greater the cost. With thirdgens, we’re playing in an arena where individual funds are not unlimited, and the user base is growing. Sometimes we have to accept that there is a disparity between what we want and what is reasonable.

So, because of globalization, more people around the word are competing for the same finite resources. But, globalization is a good thing too. If someone can do something better, faster, or cheaper than you, they’ll get the business. I know that doesn’t sound like a good thing and, in fact, it sucks for the losing party in the short term. But, we grow from it. I like to tell the guys not to look at it as losing work, look at it as an opportunity to focus on something that you’re better at. With a well-structured business, you can regroup and get back into the game with a new, competitive advantage. If you can’t weather the downturn, well, it’s probably time to move on to something else.

And it’s hard for some to move on to something else, as they’d grown comfortable with the way things were. Although, I think someone alluded to a point about the American mentality over the last few years too. No one wants to be a “laborer” anymore. Everyone wants to sit at a desk and type on a computer. What’s wrong with being a laborer? I think it’s a stigma that we, as a country, have to fix. We used to call laborers craftsmen, artisans, experts, masters, etc. Why don’t we call them that now? Because, as a collective whole, we’ve lost track of what we’re best at.

This is why America, with its high labor costs, is getting beat up in the manufacturing arena. Do you think that brands like Ferrari, Porsche, Bentley, or Rolls are worried about their bottom line? Absolutely! But, they’re not taking care of their bottom line by reducing their costs and cutting corners. They’re focusing on what they’re best at, and they’re building a case for customers to see value in their products, and they’re selling that value successfully. Albeit to a very narrow market segment. But, even these brands are competing for finite resources; in this case the disposable income of the upper class.

Which brings me back to headers (that is what we're talking about, right?). I’d rather spend my money on my house, or my trucks, or my tools, or my Harley’s. These things are my passion in life. My car is a hobby. A serious hobby, but a hobby nonetheless. So, $1,000 for headers wasn’t justifiable at the time. Could I have afforded them? Sure. I just couldn’t justify them. Could I personally build a set of stainless steel headers for $200? Probably. I just failed to see the value in allocating my time for that, when for $300 I could purchase a set that accomplished what I wanted. So, I was happy to pay the additional $100 to free up 10 hours of my time. Was I comfortable paying for the full 10 hours that I saved? Not really. I would have been willing to split the difference and pay for 5 hours of a craftsman's time building the headers at say $600. This disparity priced me out of the SW set. Not from a financial wherewithal standpoint, but from a psychological willingness standpoint.

In the case above, the SSW headers were at a very different price point. Are they something that I would consider a craftsman built piece? Definitely. I, however, could not recognize the value to cost relationship. That’s not saying that there is no value in them. The cost/value relationship was just not realizable for me. I went with a used engine, trans, other parts. Not because I couldn’t afford to buy new, but because I would rather have the working capital required for my personal quality of life and lifestyle.

Whoa. That got long winded. But, I think it explains pretty well what’s going on with this market, and to a lesser extent, our country and a limited cross section of the world economy, and why a lot of people are totally content with inexpensive parts.

...also, I do thoroughly enjoy the LS1/T56 swap. That is all.

STREETDEMON

well put.

our society has turned into a group that feels they are entitled to things....not how it works!

i would also like to make a comment about the BRP's not being the same quality. i disagree, having held both in my hands. also my mids are ceramic coated, which is a nice feature your SW's don't have. shorter in length, sure, did it hurt my hp or tq gains, i doubt it. there was no hard evidence anywhere i could find that going from a mid tube to a long tube on a street car made a huge noticeable difference. those are hard facts proven on a dyno.

i'm also with abadv8. i could have afforded the SW units, but didn't see the value in my swap. i was able to dump another $500 into other modifications that suited ME better.

Dakota W.

It's not the craftsmanship that most people dislike about chinese products. It's the fact that their metal is full of impurities, and extremely weak.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Again, YOU may able to make the for $200, IF and ONLY if you have all the fancy equipment needed to make them. But that's not really fair to compare them to the SW and say are expensive because of the overhead. I understand where you went with the rest of you post, but AGAIN I say no one can build them for too much less than what SW charges even if you were able to copy them EXACTLY. You have to consider the other things involved in the total cost.

That was me, and I said you can't compare the SW to the BRP, they are not the same thing/class. SW=Full length STAINLESS BRP=Mid length MILD STEEL. I've seen lots of pictures of the BRP stuff and it is pretty decent for American made stuff considering I think someone else actually makes the headers for them. I think it's Hedman

This guy gets it for the most part. The Chinese are undercutting American products. There are no if's and's or but's about it. They STEAL our technology and try to pass it off as the SAME product. Look at the recent MSD debacle, I have also seen some firearm parts that were trying to be passed off as an American product with the original companies logo and everything, same as the MSD. But a lot of their products have lesser quality materials AND are not well made, as shown here.

I am not telling anyone to not buy this, I am not saying people who buy this are this or that. I am only saying people knocking the SW product as "overpriced" are dead wrong. I could have build a set of Stainless headers for the two cars I bought the SW's for, but it wasn't worth the time and effort for not saving any actual money to make them. I know what is involved and I am tired of people talking out of his/her **** sphincter about Hawks and SW's.

If you can't afford the other products, so be it, buy this and be happy.

86White_T/A305

Ok...so i installed my cheapy headers had the 3 inch y pipe made and cutout put on.let me say that its an instant improvement over stock no doubt.They went in with 0 issues from the bottom on both side and didnt remove the starter.Doesnt rub at all on my frame.Everyone should have an exhaust cutout lol..love that thing!

Now the cons Ive experience.I got a header leak right at the flange between the head and the header on the pass side right at the back.Seem the flange itself is not truly flat and you can visibly see where the gasket is and isnt being compressed by the header fully torqued down.Now I can either get thicker gaskets or remove the header and have it squared up.Second issue which is my own fault but still something to watch out for is the driver side o2 sensor wiring routing needs careful planning since I just burnt mine up lol..its tight in that area to avoid heat.

Other than that..I dont regret my purchase and would recommend them for the budget minded swapper who isnt shooting for max hp.How long they last ..time will tell.Pics coming shortly..video of the cutout will be too when i find a camera that can handle the cutout being open lol!

86White_T/A305

And here are some pics...Yes my floors are pretty non existent and yes I have new replacements but priorities are speed first.Missing floor boards equals weight reduction :P

And video clip.Sorry for the poor camera mic.

abadv8

I get this completely. But, was a patent violated here (a serious question that I don't know the answer to)? My guess is that there was no infringement, because a patent was never filed for the design. In fact, I don't think you can patent a set of basic headers, since that technology has been "state of the art" for too long. In addition, it's a utility piece. But, it's also not a "needed" item. I would be curious to know if there is even a possibility to patent swap headers.

I completely understand the blatant disregard for intellectual property. Although, I don't feel that this is the case with the headers. As far as I know, these were never marketed as SSW originals. At least, mine weren't. I recall reading something a while back about vendor that was trying to pass off some non-SSW pieces as being made by SSW. But, I can't remember the details.

If these were marketed as SSW, with SSW branding/tags/decals/etc., I'd boycott them. But, they're not. They're advertised as cheap.

I do get a kick out of the impurity and inferior materials statement. What do you think the tensile or compressive loading is on a set of headers? Now, that being said, I'm not running out to buy set of wheels or brake calipers made in China anytime soon...

Dakota W.

My comment was in reference to you talking about Chinese manufacturing in general, not the manufacturing of headers specifically.

abadv8

Ah, understood.

But, just like everything, we don't hear about the stuff that is built to spec that works just fine. We only hear about the negative stuff, because we can sensationalize it. There is a lot of stuff built in China, by some pretty skilled people, that would rival US quality. Unfortunately, a lot of that stuff stays in China.

I don't mean to sound like I'm defending China (although it is coming off that way). My point is that the world is a lot smaller than I ever realized. I don't think that anyone wakes up in the morning trying to figure out how to screw the other guy (unless it's politics). For a sustainable business model, you need to keep customers happy, or you won't have any. That includes pricing your goods for the audience they are marketed to. This, I believe, is where we have two distinct factions in the thirdgen parts discussion.

86White_T/A305

Just wanted to update I went to have my car tuned on friday after getting the longtubes and 3 inch y pipe installed.But sadly the tuner wasnt able to make it so we just ran the car to see how drastic numbers are vs stock manifolds without being retuned.The shop owner made 2 pulls and called it quits because it leaned right out! He advised me not to beat on the car till next week and sort the tune out since I need quite abit of fuel added and maybe think about stepping up injectors.The pulls were made with my cutout closed, a/f was constant high 13's. I did notice throttle response has improved,hard to say if the cutout helps at all but it sure sounds great.

355hp/365tq

abadv8

What OS/program are you tuning with? I've been playing with HP Tuners... well, not since November, when it was above freezing. I would be curious to get a look at someone else's fuel and spark tables to know if I'm going in the right direction. My guess is that I'm on the lean side, as on cold mornings I get a half throttle stutter.

86White_T/A305

Short vid with the open cutout.

BADNBLK

iTrader: (11)

I ordered some of these as well. Gonna give it a try. From the looks of things I won't have any problems to post about... hopefully.

86White_T/A305

I doubt it,my only issues was the slight warp flange on the passenger side but a thicker gasket made quick work to fix it.Install wise they fit very well and went on with no effort from the bottom.Just pay attention to your wires to the starter and the o2 sensors so they dont burn.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Where did u get these headers ? How much a set ?

86White_T/A305

www.racinginnovationandsupply.com
they were $250 when I got mine

jazzdadss

Your roads SUCK!

86White_T/A305

^^^ Brother...the roads you see in the vid are the better roads I chose to drive on.This winter has just destroyed roads everywhere here

Mind you i do have the suspension on the extra stiff side of things lol.

SiCkRs

iTrader: (6)

just ordered mine 320shipped will see how these work for me

Willie B.

I was about to buy mine but I waited then looked back and the auction ended. Guess I will have to wait, please post pics of yours when you get them. Personally, I don't really care what they look like inside the collector just as long as they flow and don't leak. My only real consern is the flanges not being true.

86White_T/A305

Why wait..go to the source,its still instock for now.
http://www.racinginnovationandsupply...der_p_189.html

As for the flanges so far Im the only lucky person to report that problem and it was minor.I used the thick header gaskets that came with the headers with a lil sealer and all was well.The rest of the header etc had no leaks and fit well.If thats your only concern..id say go for it.Im hitting the dyno in the morning for a retune..cross your fingers I gained something other than a cool sounding exhaust lol

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

Got a set on the way for a customer.
Gonna use gm mls gaskets. Should have no probs leaking

86White_T/A305

*update* After getting a new ecm and tune with the cutout open and a long cooldown session. The car put down an 399hp and 401tq. First pull was at 360hp/377tq.

Best pull with stock manifolds was 370hp/380tq.
Video will be up soon of some pulls,video of the last pull was corrupted but love how it sounds open cutout! Drives great now

Willie B.

That's what I been waiting for, numbers, I doubt my increase will be that high but great numbers, wish I had that much tq!

86White_T/A305

Well somebody had to post numbers eventually to see if its worth the money.Im sure I could gain more with bigger longtubes but this feels just fine now.Need track times.

LastGTA

iTrader: (1)

So what's everyone doing for a Y-pipe with these headers?

abadv8

I made my own...

(*I took the pictures with an old point and shoot. I don't know why the welds appear so inconsistent... they're not.)

86White_T/A305

nicely done.

abadv8

Yeah, I couldn't have been happier with how it turned out. I don’t know if there’s an official term for this method (pie cutting, maybe?). But, the complexity, tight bend radius, and constant cross sectional areas that you can pull off are incredible. I doubt that I’ll ever use mandrel bends again. Although, I may do some buffing/finishing on the joints.

In addition, the process wasn't that labor intensive. The most monotonous part was cutting all the pieces. But, after I set the band saw up, I was basically just feeding it material and collecting the parts. Assembly was super quick. Grab a piece, tack it on in three spots, and test fit. If it looked OK, add another piece. When everything was tacked up satisfactorily, I ran a bead around each of the joints.

This method seems to go hand in hand with the budget headers.

3.8TransAM

I hemmed and hawed for a while on this.

I bit the bullet and went with them, after figuring out costs and redoing the y-pipe after setting it up for stock manifolds I might as well do it in the first place instead of over the winter.

Waiting for some rust repair before engine install, so headers will be here waiting when I go to drop it in.

86White_T/A305

Just keep in mind..after switching from stock manifolds to the longtubes and bigger y pipe.I immediately needed a retune! It was running very lean which robbed almost 20whp so dont beat on it too harshly thinking it doesnt need a retune from just switching to longtubes.

3.8TransAM

Yeah, still have to get my 0411 flashed for a Camaro, let alone tuned

They don't look to bad, they came in yesterday. Definitely not the nicest, but if they fit and seal I don't really care.

I can put that money into heads or something................

I remember when heads cost a lot for a car, not the headers....

Sweak22

Have any other people had experiences with these headers? I have been looking into them lately for my LS swap. I saw a lot of arguments back and forth about the SW LTs vs the Racing Innovations LTs and wondered if anyone had the dyno numbers to prove that the SW were actually better? Also there was a lot of talk about them being Chinese made but it looks like this company is based out of Kansas City, MO. Have been looking at these and thinking about pulling the trigger for a while so any input from people with experience would be greatly appreciated.

0078red1

Haven't seen any charts, but I would ask "pocket" he knows everything no lie. However if they fit they fit 300 is way better then paying 700

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Ive ran both but not back to back to compare actual number. From hands on experience, the only flaw I see in the RI headers is the collector as far as performance is concerned. They used a cheap expanded tube, formed into a quad collector vs a true merge collector and spike. For most conversions, this is splitting hairs for performance. If you're squeezing every last ounce of power out, it may be a breaking point

They are chinese made, the reseller is simply based in Kansas as seen by the kansas shredded newspapers he packs the boxes with

IMHO, they're a good part, well worth the money

0078red1

the legend pocket is among us

R13_Braz

Even though the RI are "cheap", I have no issues with mine. Fit is perfect up top, and required minor modification down below (my exhaust guy shaved my trans crossmember on both sides to get pipe by it), welds on the outside are clean and install was the easiest I've ever had for headers on ANY car.

Inside welds aren't the greatest, and like Pocket said the collector isn't the most amazing thing ever. But, the fact they are only $300 is remarkable and for what you are paying for the quality is great.

indebt

iTrader: (1)

Pocket, would you recommend these for a lq4/D1SC car?

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Yes. Ill be running them on a LSA/LS3 topped LQ4

$750 L98

What is that you are using for a gauge display? Looks like maybe a tablet of some sort? Neat idea.

Jcash442

Ordered a rear bumper from Bruce and a passenger side door trim piece last year and when I got them the trim piece was broken on the lower from corner and the bumper was just as rusted as the one I was trying to replace.... no more of my money will be spent at hawks.

no green

here's a bunch of pix i took of mine.

hawksthirdgen

Hi,
Did you call in with the issue ? If anyone ever receives a order there not happy with we cannot fix it if we are not aware of it , this happens sometimes with used inventory . just to let everyone know .
Sincerely
Bruce Hawkins

delicious d

hey i just purchased the 300 headers and im having troble installing them, the passenger side is not going in I was wondering if you guys had any advise. im running a t56 with the spohn motor mounts, i still have the ac suitcase installed, thank you in advance

delicious d

i pulled the suitcase ac stuff out got the headers in unbolting the motor mount to the
car and the headers are touching the rounded piece were the starter bolts up...its the only place of contact, have any of you experienced this?