five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Okay, I know I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack, so bear with me. Here's what I've got and what I've got planned:

Have:
2003 LQ4, 4L80E, & PCM
Bare (as-cast, no porting) L92 heads & off-set rockers
L76 intake
Melling oil pump

Planning:
~500 FWHP
Long tubes (at least 1-3/4", considering 1-7/8" primaries)
Forged Wiseco flat tops with valve reliefs
ARP rod bolts
Pump gas
Comp 26926TS spring/retainer/keeper kit (26926 dual springs, tool steel 7 degree retainers)
Comp 8406 .105" wall chromoly pushrods
Cloyes LS2 timing set
Cometic .040" MLS head gaskets (6.0 okay, or do I needs something different for the L92's?)
4000 stall, 4.56 gears
Cam - considering Comp LSr series (the "r" for "rectangular port") 281 or 285LRRHR13

Cam & springs based on recent Hot Rod mag dyno article with a non-VVT 6.2l producing 515-ish HP w/L92 heads, 277LRR HR13 cam with the above spring kit, LS3 intake, 36 lb injectors, 1-3/4" primary long tubes. With 200 cc smaller displacement and willingness to give up a little idle vacuum, I figured the slightly bigger cam was needed to get the HP back up.

May also shave the heads to reduce chambers by a couple of cc's to keep CR up.

I was originally planning a 4" stroker crank, but figure it really isn't needed to get to my goals (12.0 sec sea level in a streetable 3850 lb car w/driver), for the much higher costs involved.

So, critique the assumptions above.

But, biggest hurdle right now is completing the heads. LS3 titanium valves are out of the question price-wise (and not necessary, I don't think). I see Manley has 11620 intake (2.165") and 11621 exhaust (1.590") "race series" valves, good enough? Hollow stem necessary? Hollow only available on the intakes - at almost 3x the price. Pro Flo 11686 intake and 11661 exhaust (same sizes) also available for about $50 more total. I'll probably be spinning to 7000-7200 RPMs.

Or, I could just forget the hassle of completing what I've got and get sdparts complete CNC'd heads. http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...enter/sd5882-1

Also, what head bolts? I don't see ARPs for L92 heads. Probably not looking in the right place. Prefer not to go with studs or torque-to-yield bolts.

Appreciate picking your brains.

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

that 4k stall is gonna EAT up hp numbers on the dyno... same motor/cam/ everything, just swapped from a 4k stalled 4l60e to a twin disc and a t-56 went from 407/389 to 463/434..... that was with a unlocked converter also. and if you find a company thats making the 1 7/8 headers like hawks you need to send me a pm. you will need to flycut for the intake valve also if you use stock pistons.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

let's have a conversation about making a lot of power one of these days If you don't mind the 4k stall and those big gears you can do a lot better for not much more money. LS3 intake valves are what $250? They are lighter than the ferrara(spelling?) and a few other choices. As for cam I can put you in touch with THEE man on custom grinds. It'll cost a little more but far better all around and easier on drivetrain components. Also is this for the 57? If so....it's carb time

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

i bought my set for 100 shipped...... they have 8k miles on them

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

i meant new, but yes you can get great deals used

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Not worried about dyno numbers. Looking for as good or better drag strip numbers with better street manners than the 396. My experience has been insufficient stall kills ET, while sufficient stall is completely tolerable on the street (lock-up is a plus in that regard). The dyno will be for tuning purposes only. My son's S10 Blazer/LS1 clone registered 308 RWHP on the dyno in a tuning session, and the LS1/4L60E Camaro outruns it by a second & 10 MPH on the track and about 5 MPG on the street (with 3.73 gears in the Camaro vs. 3.23 gears for the Blazer). I seriously doubt an all-factory-internals LS1 is putting out as much more RWHP as it takes for a 300 pound lighter vehicle to outrun the other one by a second/10 MPH.

I'm sticking with EFI. Not looking for anything faster than 11.5 (not interested in the extra safety features required at that point). Most of the running will be at 5800' elevation, so about .8-.9 sec slower than sea level. I'd be happy if it would run 12.6's at elevation on a hot summer day with a 15 MPH head wind. In fact, I'd be happy if it was high-12s and a 50 shot would get it down half a second (one class has a max 12.75 dial-in allowed). At sea level, 12.0 NA is fine, anything more is cushion (wouldn't be spraying at sea level). I'd like to be able to drive it the 350 miles one-way to my 40th high school reunion without worrying about where the next gas station is (the LS1/4L60E Camaro averaged 23 MPG on that route).

Titanium LS3 valves? Haven't seen anything close to that price (more like per cylinder). The Pro Flow Manley valves would run $380 for a full set, about $330 for the race series. As long as I'm not floating valves or wearing out valvetrain, not sure the extra for LS3 valves is worth it ($'s and hassle).

I was looking at LY6 application Wiseco pistons, so the valve reliefs should be correct. But, for sure would verify before running.

I'd be interested in custom cam suggestions if power was the same but driveability better than the Comp offerings. Again, not out for max possible power. The 396 with a 100 shot, 3.73 gears, 3500 stall, got me to 11.9's, estimated 500 HP. I'm assuming this engine would make the 500 FWHP at sea level, for similar ET's there with higher stall/gears, so at altitude would be mid/high 12's. But, these LS engines have surprised me before...

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

ls3 valves are hollow stem, haven't seen ANY titanium ones, are you thinking ls7 valves?

You figure out what you want and for around $500-550 you can get an excellent custom ground cam that will blow the others out of the water. Pick out all your other components then this guy will want a 2 page form filled out. It has a ton of information on there that must be inputed, you know the weight of the car at race weight, the stall rpm within a few hundred, etc.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Probably.

Pro Flows -> hollow LS3 at the price you quoted would be about a $60 upper. Probably do-able (the Manley hollows were a $250 upper). I shall consider (have a link? - not seeing them on sdparts.com).

Forgot to mention - figured I'd get a set of new LS7 lifters.

Guerra, per chance?

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

All I remember when talking to the cylinder head guy at Advanced Inductions was the ls3 valves were the lightest(by over 10 grams), I'm sure sdparts could find them, if not online.

I'll PM you contact info on the cam guy, I know just he doesn't like people wasting his time or to try to pump free knowledge out of him, but once you're his customer he had no problem at all spending 45 minutes on the phone with me when I had the wrong converter setup in a car and we were trying to figure out what was wrong with the combo. Extremely knowledgeable and he then phones into comp cams, since he has proprietary lobes that only he can order and then will have the cam shipped to him, checked on his cam doctor machine, you will get both a cam card from comp along with his cam card, double checking comp to make sure it's 100% what you ordered. Sometimes comp can goof up and get you something completely wrong and you'd be chasing your tail.

1badeagle

iTrader: (2)

This is basically the same motor im finishiing up right now. Mine is a 370 though.I am running a set of stock ls3 heads. I have plans to eventually send them out to get them ported. I am running a set of Mahle L92 4.030 pistons that will put me at 10.5:1 with stock heads and gaskets. You are gonna want to run ls3 gaskets since the 6.0 gasket will shroud the chamber. For a cam, I wouldnt run an off the shelf cam. I would get on ls1tech and contact Patrick G. He will send you a sheet to put all you info on and send you a spec sheet for a custom cam back for only 25$ The have a comp dealer of your choice or his reccomendation grind a custom cam for you. I know you only want to make 500 FWHP, But I will make over 500 WHP with my motor and a T56. I am running a carb/victor jr set up to where your running a efi set up. If you need anything else let me know.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

This is similar to what I originally planned until I found out my LQ9 had 2x the miles it was claimed to have, which resulted in my 4" stroker. The biggest area of your research should revolve around cam selection. There is a LOT of opinion in cam selection for LS3 heads, and the biggest dissension seems to revolve around exhaust duration. One camp likes a lot of exhaust duration, the other favors minimizing it in order to maintain wide overlap and more intake duration. I favored the latter, and wound up going with a 227/231 cam for my 403 based on my tuner's recommendation. With your modest power goals, you will likely be looking at a cam that's a bit milder than this, which also allows for maintaining the same lack of overlap without sacrificing so much exhaust duration. I'd bet that something like a 224/228 113+2 would likely work well.

As for valves, the LS3 valves shouldn't be too expensive. You've already got the bare castings, but your best bet might be to sell those and buy a complete set of LS3 heads. Complete LS3 heads are only $330-350 each, so if you can get enough for your bare heads, and then get some more for the LS3 springs, you might save money by doing this vice buying valves for your current heads. With your lower compression due to the dished pistons, low rpm torque might be a bit soggy with these heads, so you may want to look at a little tighter LSA, provided you don't wind up with more than a couple degrees of overlap at .050". Any more than that and reversion seems to start playing a role and reducing midrange power.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If the cam is designed right and the springs are spec'd correctly, you can turn those rpms with non-hollow stem. I'm not quite there yet on my build, but i'm using Ferrea 2.100" non hollow stem valves in my sbc heads with a PAC-1300 series double spring designed for circle track racing. Titanium retainers. Should be stable to 7K rpms, although I dont think i'll need to go that high but thats the goal. The valve train was spec'd for this rpm range. Hollow stems reallllly do help but you may not need them.

Cam lobe design can be altered to account for heavy valves...usually results in less peak power due to being abit more conservative in valve motion nature, but better valvetrain reliability is worth its weight in gold.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

To be clear, I haven't purchased any of the "planned" parts yet. So, no valve springs.

I do plan on flat top pistons w/valve reliefs rather than keeping dished pistons, and I'd be willing to shave the heads to up compression if required.

Yes, they are modest power goals, but I do want to be careful to keep everything working together. And I understand the importance of cam selection in that regard. The Comp cams I listed were more for reference than planning the engine around them.

Searching on various sites, including tech, yielded no LS3 valves. Some new, most come with heads. I'm not set on finishing the heads I have, but would need to be getting a better deal to go with different heads. The CNC sdparts heads have been shown to be comparable to other's products, so that is an option I would consider (come with hollow valves, good springs, & titanium retainers, and are already ported).

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Maybe I'll just forget all that, get a LY6/6L90, cam & stall it, and run that instead.

85streetmachine

I am doing the identical build myself, including the 4l80e and was considering swapping the pistons to help with ptv clearance and compression. But, when thinking about just changing the pistons for around $600/complete set, why not spend another $1500 and get a stroker kit so you can have a completely brand new forged lower end, which will up the cubes and give more horse and torque anyway? Am I wrong to assume that spending just over $2k on a stout bottom end while gaining 60-70 hp and 50lb-ft torque with better compression and ptv clearance is more worth while than say, buying a newer set of heads like trick flows that cost the same if not more, and would get less power than a stroker kit? Just my 0.02.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

As a matter of fact, a stroker kit was my original plan. The cost of the kit has been the reason I haven't moved off center on this build for the last 2 years. Being able to reach the power goals without the expense for the extra cubes is more likely to get things moving.

Granted, the extra cubes would make the engine milder for the same power level. But, I expect this to have better street manners than the 396 had.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I never planned on a full build either. LQ9 + LS3 heads/intake + new cam = done. Now here I am 2 years later and I have a nice snazzy 403 that still doesn't have heads on it.

Thridgen60

iTrader: (2)

Is the engine you have already complete? If so i wouldn't touch the bottom end except maybe some rod bolts. Iv been running my stock bottom end LQ4 with stock L92 heads (no hollow stems here) and a Pat G 226/234 598/600 cam a couple years with no issues. Runs 12.0s all day long in a 3400 lb car with a 3.50 gear shifting at 6500 and coming through the big end at only 5500. One thing iv learned is you dont have to blow tons of money on fancy parts to go fast with the LS platform, just keep it simple. Just my .02.

cam-

You can safely run the stock valves up that high ( I do lol ). But Id go for PAC1521 duals over those comp springs though but suit yourself just make sure you run duals and if your really worried just drop in LS3 intake valves the exh stockers are fine. Then Id and run this cam spec'd by PatG;

230/238 .600/.615 112LSA +2 running running endurance lobes from Engine Power Systems on the intake and LXL lobes from Comp on the exhaust to reduce valvetrain noise and increase stability. Really strong cam for NA

mid 11's with ease

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I haven't disassembled the shortblock yet, but the engine has 147k miles on it, and before it was pulled from the donor vehicle water got in the engine. The cylinder walls look fine, but it also has oil deposit crud all through it. So, I will be taking the shortblock down, and it will at least get rings and bearings. I wanted to go with flat top pistons to make up the compression the larger chamber heads on a smaller displacement engine would cause. I could (and probably still will) shave the heads, but shaving enough to make up for dished pistons seems excessive.

I've looked into the PAC springs in the past, but not recently. I'll give them another look-see.

Thridgen60

iTrader: (2)

I guess it just depends on what your budget is then. If you do pistons, there is no reason not to do rods also. But by the time you do both and have everything balanced, youll have over 1K into it. You only gain about 20hp per point of compression and by going flat tops and shaving the heads slightly you would probably gain a point. So you have to ask yourself is that 20hp really worth over a 1000 dollars or can i make it else where for cheaper?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I have considered making the factory dished pistons work. But, I may not be able to get away with a glaze break on the cylinder walls for the new rings if there is pitting below what I can see, so new pistons may be in the future, anyway. And, I prefer forged over cast or hyper for its future duties.

Shaving the heads brings the valves closer to the tops of the pistons, which you'll have to do a lot more of to make up the CR with dish pistons. With flat tops, the valve reliefs are there, keeping the valves away from the pistons.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I guess you haven't looked at my vBGarage. The LS1/4L60E 3450lb Berlinetta runs 12.0's at sea level without breaking a sweat. My wife & I went to a movie in it today.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Found these pistons (thanks to 91_B4C_RS): http://www.flatlanderracing.com/autotec-chevy-01.html

Even less volume than the pistons I was looking at, decent price. I'll probably go ahead and do the .005" hone to insure a good sealing surface.

Still don't see a reason to do rods. The stock PM rods are good for a lot more power than I'll be pushing.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Five,

What year LQ motor do you have? Late 2004 and on received the LS2 rods with the floating pin. These rods are really underrated and you will have far more piston choices. Be careful on your piston choices, as I am sure you know this, there are very few out there made to run with the stock 6.098 rod length. Also, Weisco's makes a lot of slugs that can be run with either the stock or aftermarket (6.125) rod length. This will greatly affect your final piston location at TDC (pin stays at the same place). Piston to valve clearance with these heads often comes into problems so make sure you dial in where your piston is and where your valves are! Take a look at the Katech rod bolts as well. More expensive than AFR, but they don't require the rods to be resized. They are meant to be a stock replacement. At 7k rpm, the stock internals might be fine, but the rod bolts won't be.

Head bolts will be the same as an LS head. Just need to make sure you have the year with "all long bolts" or long and short.

I saw that you wanted to turn 7000+ rpm? I would seriously look at not going with the LS7 lifters and look into a tie bar set-up. At that RPM stock style lifters are known to turn within their plastic housing. Might want to read up on Morell's.

These are just a few of my random thoughts.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Morels are great lifters but I have had friends turn 7500+ rpms with LS7's and they have been ok. Thats definately pushing it tho.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Shifty, it's a 2003 engine.

Do L92 heads take the same bolts as LS1? I had it in my head they were different, but couldn't find a reference when I did a quick search.

I don't know if you clicked on the piston link, but the ones I was considering are made for 6.098" rods. The valve reliefs are supposed to work with L92 heads as well. But, I do plan on mocking it up and checking it all out carefully.

I've heard unkind things about Katech rod bolts. For sure I won't stay with stock rod bolts, though.

7k RPMs was a WAG. I haven't looked into other lifter possibilities in depth, but tie bars sounds like a good idea. Which ones, specifically? Looking at their site, looks like I need to find a distributor.

Thanks for the suggestions. I don't want this thing to disappoint or eat itself.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

I would find a set of 2005+ rods (any truck motor or car motor will have them). They are cheap (around $100) and a better all around rod. I will check out the link, I didn't before.

'97 to '04 blocks had the three different size bolts. Post 2004 had the same size bolts. You will need the one with 3 lengths. I would double check but I am pretty sure on this. Some GM Gen IV motors come with Gen III heads and have the same head bolts as any other Gen IV. I would imagine the reverse is true as well.

Thats good that you will replace them, might as well do it when you pick up your floating pin rods . I haven't heard anything but good from them, and I geuss the company that makes the bolts for them (name escapes me) makes all the bolts for NASCAR and NHRA motors.

Take a look at these.

http://www.texas-speed.com/p-596-lun...r-lifters.aspx

Morell's are the preferred brand but both Comp and Lunati make their own versions now. These are more street oriented and more friendly on the budget.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Five,

I confirmed that the L92/LS3 heads take whatever head bolts your block accepts.

ARP #134-3609 '97-04 LS blocks.
ARP #134-3610 '05-UP LS blocks.

A1 Technologies makes the Katech bolts. Aerospace and Race.

http://a1technologies.com/index_flash.php

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I got a set of morels from Chris Straub but I decided to keep my LS7's for now for my sbc. Call him, he's a real good guy with lifters as he is a dealer. The Morels are used on the fastest street legal vette in europe that runs solid roller type spring pressures on hydraulic roller cams! Revs out well over 7K rpm. They are tough lifters. Pricey but you get what you pay for. Tool steel body instead of cast steel like most other lifters.
http://straubtechnologies.com/

91_B4C_RS

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-GEN-III-G...item4aafb83a25

Thia is the guy I bought my rods from I got all 8 for 65 shipped. Looks like he has 8 for sale at 11$ a piece. I had to have the bushings honed a lil to get the proper. 0001-.0002" pin to rod clearance. Machine shops don't charge alot for that.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

My 04 block was all short bolts, no long ones in the outer corners. At 7k rpm the ls7 lifters are fine, we all run them and 7300rpm and no issues, we do however replace the plastic trays with brand new ones, as they're cheap and also drill 1/2" holes into them to help with oil drainback. Posts are all over tech on where to do that at. Don't forget that cam lobe shape also has to do with wear and tear on the lifters/springs. The EPS lobes that I run are very gentle on the valvetrain which helps out the lifter life at that rpm too. The valves aren't slammed shut like other cams on the market.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Exactly. If you need to turn that rpm, the cam lobe design is critical and will determine how the valvetrain handles it. This is where a spintron comes in handy Most dont have one unfortunately. Cant always stick the most aggressive cam lobe in it and add spring pressure to control it...it will eat springs out and possibly snap valve heads off.