Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
#1
Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
I've been working on this for quite some time now, and I've been maintaining a build thread on iroczone.com, but I've made enough progress now that I suppose it's worth putting here. Future progress will be slow going (as you'll see from the timeline for my current progress). I get a few hours per week to devote to the hobby, and not much more.
In any case, the next batch of posts will be copies of what I've been posting at iroczone, along with the dates I posted them.
March 23, 2010:
First, what I'm doing:
The plan is to build a stroker LS-series motor based on an iron 6.0 block, LS3 heads, and LS3 intake. Behind the motor will be a T56 of some variety, and behind that will be a 9" Moser rear. This plan has deviated slightly from my original plan, which was essentially to bolt a set of used L92 heads onto a low mile LQ9, slap a cam in, and consider the motor "done". This plan changed when I found out the 62k mile motor I bought actually had 130k miles on it, so now I'm building a 402 cube stroker shortblock, and throwing my budget out the window. Speaking of which, anybody want a 91 6 speed Corvette? I need the money for my IROC.
So... as of Friday, the block was delivered to the machine shop. Once he measures my bore diameter to confirm that I can use a +010 piston, I'll order the rotating assembly. But, in the meantime, let's see what steps I took to get to this point:
The LQ9, as delivered:
All there, including the harness & ECM:
Nice fan.
The ubiquitous block displacement shot:
Teardown begins! Harness, coils and some other crap removed:
Intake manifold is off:
A vision of things to come:
continued next post...
In any case, the next batch of posts will be copies of what I've been posting at iroczone, along with the dates I posted them.
March 23, 2010:
First, what I'm doing:
The plan is to build a stroker LS-series motor based on an iron 6.0 block, LS3 heads, and LS3 intake. Behind the motor will be a T56 of some variety, and behind that will be a 9" Moser rear. This plan has deviated slightly from my original plan, which was essentially to bolt a set of used L92 heads onto a low mile LQ9, slap a cam in, and consider the motor "done". This plan changed when I found out the 62k mile motor I bought actually had 130k miles on it, so now I'm building a 402 cube stroker shortblock, and throwing my budget out the window. Speaking of which, anybody want a 91 6 speed Corvette? I need the money for my IROC.
So... as of Friday, the block was delivered to the machine shop. Once he measures my bore diameter to confirm that I can use a +010 piston, I'll order the rotating assembly. But, in the meantime, let's see what steps I took to get to this point:
The LQ9, as delivered:
All there, including the harness & ECM:
Nice fan.
The ubiquitous block displacement shot:
Teardown begins! Harness, coils and some other crap removed:
Intake manifold is off:
A vision of things to come:
continued next post...
Last edited by Jim85IROC; 08-08-2011 at 09:15 PM.
#2
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
continued from previous...
Popped off the valve cover. Looks good for 62k miles (looks better for 130k!) :
Impossible to see in this pic, but the cylinder bores still show their crosshatch pattern, and have no ridge at the top of the wall:
One hiccup that I encountered during dis-assembly was that I couldn't get the dipstick tube out of the block. Here's the final result:
The machine shop will take care of it.
No pics for a while, but I continued the teardown, until I was left with an almost bare block. Here's a pic of the bottom of the block with the crank removed:
The main bearings look brand new:
Main cap bearing. In great shape for 130k miles:
Rods & pistons:
continued next post...
Popped off the valve cover. Looks good for 62k miles (looks better for 130k!) :
Impossible to see in this pic, but the cylinder bores still show their crosshatch pattern, and have no ridge at the top of the wall:
One hiccup that I encountered during dis-assembly was that I couldn't get the dipstick tube out of the block. Here's the final result:
The machine shop will take care of it.
No pics for a while, but I continued the teardown, until I was left with an almost bare block. Here's a pic of the bottom of the block with the crank removed:
The main bearings look brand new:
Main cap bearing. In great shape for 130k miles:
Rods & pistons:
continued next post...
Last edited by Jim85IROC; 08-08-2011 at 09:17 PM.
#3
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Continued from last post:
Crank journals are like brand new:
Other acquisition so far. LS3 intake, complete with injectors and rails:
I've also acquired some of the accessories (alternator, water pump, etc), an f-body oil pan, a Corvette fuel regulator/filter, a spare K-member, and a handful of other small crap.
So that brings us to the machine shop. The block is at the shop, and by the end of the day I'll have confirmation that I can go with a .010 overbore. I could probably get away with a lot less, but I don't just want to hone the cylinder... I want to do an overbore with the torque plate attached, and then a final hone. This will give me the best, most round cylinder wall possible to ensure proper ring seal.
The rotating assembly will consist of a 4" Compstar crank, Compstar rods with ARP fasteners, -2cc Weisco pistons with L92 valve reliefs.
Once I get the block back and start to assemble, I should have a more complete set of pictures that follow my progress.
Thursday, March 25 2010:
On Tuesday I ordered a brand new set of LS3 heads from the local GM dealer, and I just got done ordering the 402 stroker rotating assembly from Texas Speed. Unfortunately, TSP is out of 24 tooth reluctor wheels for the callies cranks, so it's going to be a couple weeks before I get my junk.
Man, it doesn't take long to spend money that took 2+ years to save.
Crank journals are like brand new:
Other acquisition so far. LS3 intake, complete with injectors and rails:
I've also acquired some of the accessories (alternator, water pump, etc), an f-body oil pan, a Corvette fuel regulator/filter, a spare K-member, and a handful of other small crap.
So that brings us to the machine shop. The block is at the shop, and by the end of the day I'll have confirmation that I can go with a .010 overbore. I could probably get away with a lot less, but I don't just want to hone the cylinder... I want to do an overbore with the torque plate attached, and then a final hone. This will give me the best, most round cylinder wall possible to ensure proper ring seal.
The rotating assembly will consist of a 4" Compstar crank, Compstar rods with ARP fasteners, -2cc Weisco pistons with L92 valve reliefs.
Once I get the block back and start to assemble, I should have a more complete set of pictures that follow my progress.
Thursday, March 25 2010:
On Tuesday I ordered a brand new set of LS3 heads from the local GM dealer, and I just got done ordering the 402 stroker rotating assembly from Texas Speed. Unfortunately, TSP is out of 24 tooth reluctor wheels for the callies cranks, so it's going to be a couple weeks before I get my junk.
Man, it doesn't take long to spend money that took 2+ years to save.
Last edited by Jim85IROC; 08-08-2011 at 09:18 PM.
#4
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Tuesday, March 30 2010:
So I've been fed up with a lot of the used stuff I've been buying for my motor swap lately, and was looking forward to buying some new stuff.
Ordered my rotating assembly, and have to wait 2 weeks for the crank. Fine. I ordered a brand new set of LS3 cylinder heads last week and picked them up yesterday. I got them home, and both of them are beat up, one of them looks like it was dropped right on the corner.
The heads come wrapped in bubble wrap, in a box barely big enough for the head:
So far so good:
The business side. If you look along the top along the intake side, you can see 4 dings right on the corner of the head gasket surface. These dings are sharp enough that it had to happen before the head was put into the box. They're all small, and once I hit them with a file they shouldn't be a problem.
Now... here's how the other head came. Instead of the 1" bubble wrap, it's just wrapped up in the 1/4" junk.
continued next post...
So I've been fed up with a lot of the used stuff I've been buying for my motor swap lately, and was looking forward to buying some new stuff.
Ordered my rotating assembly, and have to wait 2 weeks for the crank. Fine. I ordered a brand new set of LS3 cylinder heads last week and picked them up yesterday. I got them home, and both of them are beat up, one of them looks like it was dropped right on the corner.
The heads come wrapped in bubble wrap, in a box barely big enough for the head:
So far so good:
The business side. If you look along the top along the intake side, you can see 4 dings right on the corner of the head gasket surface. These dings are sharp enough that it had to happen before the head was put into the box. They're all small, and once I hit them with a file they shouldn't be a problem.
Now... here's how the other head came. Instead of the 1" bubble wrap, it's just wrapped up in the 1/4" junk.
continued next post...
Last edited by Jim85IROC; 08-08-2011 at 09:19 PM.
#5
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
continued from prevous post...
Somebody dropped it on the corner, and it puckered the head gasket surface:
I laid the old head gasket over it to get an idea of what's going on there, and basically... nothing. I'm sure I could file it flat and have no problems, but it's aggravating that I'd have to do that to a brand new head. I may call the dealer and see if they'll replace it.
What a pain in the ***.
Somebody dropped it on the corner, and it puckered the head gasket surface:
I laid the old head gasket over it to get an idea of what's going on there, and basically... nothing. I'm sure I could file it flat and have no problems, but it's aggravating that I'd have to do that to a brand new head. I may call the dealer and see if they'll replace it.
What a pain in the ***.
Last edited by Jim85IROC; 08-08-2011 at 09:20 PM.
#6
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Monday, April 5 2010:
Just a small update... I had the dealer order me another head to replace the one with the puckered corner, but decided to take the other one to the machine shop just to get his opinion. His opinion was the same as mine... file the dings and bolt it on. So... I'm keeping one head and eagerly awaiting the arrival of the replacement head.
Just a small update... I had the dealer order me another head to replace the one with the puckered corner, but decided to take the other one to the machine shop just to get his opinion. His opinion was the same as mine... file the dings and bolt it on. So... I'm keeping one head and eagerly awaiting the arrival of the replacement head.
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#8
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Tuesday, April 13 2010:
Progress!
I bought a new oil cap on Ebay
Right now I'm researching camshafts, but since the LS3 heads require a cam that's so different from the cathedral style heads, I'm not going to pull the trigger on the cam until I have both cylinder heads in hand.
Progress!
I bought a new oil cap on Ebay
Right now I'm researching camshafts, but since the LS3 heads require a cam that's so different from the cathedral style heads, I'm not going to pull the trigger on the cam until I have both cylinder heads in hand.
#10
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Tuesday, April 27 2010:
Small update.
I picked up my replacement LS3 head. This one came in a different style box, and unlike the first 2, this one had absolutely no marks or dings anywhere on the head.
Of course... that doesn't mean it was perfect. There are shiny "wear" spots on the ends of the head, and marks that clearly look like this had a head gasket stuck under it at some point. But... the head clearly IS new. The combustion chambers are clean, the paint markings are still on the valves, and the valves even still have the oily film on them. I looked closely at the bolt mounting surfaces, and it looks like it's fresh out of the CNC... absolutely no signs that a bolt was ever tightened on these heads. Odd...
I also received my Nick Williams 92mm throttle body. Nice piece. The factory opening on the LS3 intake is a little bit larger than the 92mm throttle body opening, so no porting was necessary for a good fit.
Small update.
I picked up my replacement LS3 head. This one came in a different style box, and unlike the first 2, this one had absolutely no marks or dings anywhere on the head.
Of course... that doesn't mean it was perfect. There are shiny "wear" spots on the ends of the head, and marks that clearly look like this had a head gasket stuck under it at some point. But... the head clearly IS new. The combustion chambers are clean, the paint markings are still on the valves, and the valves even still have the oily film on them. I looked closely at the bolt mounting surfaces, and it looks like it's fresh out of the CNC... absolutely no signs that a bolt was ever tightened on these heads. Odd...
I also received my Nick Williams 92mm throttle body. Nice piece. The factory opening on the LS3 intake is a little bit larger than the 92mm throttle body opening, so no porting was necessary for a good fit.
Last edited by Jim85IROC; 08-08-2011 at 09:21 PM.
#12
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Thursday, May 13 2010:
Parts are here.
Compstar 4" forged crank, Compstar forged rods, and Weisco forged pistons.
Also in the box was all the bearings, wrist pins, rings and a set of ARP head bolts.
I must say though... I was very disappointed to see "Made in TAIWAN" on the wrist pin packaging.
Parts are here.
Compstar 4" forged crank, Compstar forged rods, and Weisco forged pistons.
Also in the box was all the bearings, wrist pins, rings and a set of ARP head bolts.
I must say though... I was very disappointed to see "Made in TAIWAN" on the wrist pin packaging.
Last edited by Jim85IROC; 08-08-2011 at 09:22 PM.
#13
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Wed May 19, 2010 10:46 am
Minor update.
I've started cleaning some of the aluminum bits in preparation for painting them. The oil pan and front & rear covers are going to get painted in a color that best approximates bare aluminum. Once the motor is in the car you'll hardly be able to see these parts, but I at least want them to look good, and bare aluminum doesn't stay clean worth ****. I've test sprayed a bunch of "aluminum" colors, and most look like hell, but I've found a couple that really look decent.
All of my parts are here to have my machine work done, but since my machine shop doesn't have an LS torque plate, I need to rent one. After a month of constant communication, now that I need it, they aren't returning my emails or calls. :banghead:
Minor update.
I've started cleaning some of the aluminum bits in preparation for painting them. The oil pan and front & rear covers are going to get painted in a color that best approximates bare aluminum. Once the motor is in the car you'll hardly be able to see these parts, but I at least want them to look good, and bare aluminum doesn't stay clean worth ****. I've test sprayed a bunch of "aluminum" colors, and most look like hell, but I've found a couple that really look decent.
All of my parts are here to have my machine work done, but since my machine shop doesn't have an LS torque plate, I need to rent one. After a month of constant communication, now that I need it, they aren't returning my emails or calls. :banghead:
#14
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Thu May 20, 2010 9:29 am
Minor update.
Last night I finished cleaning the front and rear covers, then I hit them with primer and a couple coats of aluminum paint. Like every other aluminum paint I've used, this stuff is a little too silvery for my tastes, but it looks better than the bare stained, dirty aluminum, and should help them stay clean. I'm going to paint all of my aluminum stuff for this reason. Well, I'm not going to paint the heads. That would be dumb.
Minor update.
Last night I finished cleaning the front and rear covers, then I hit them with primer and a couple coats of aluminum paint. Like every other aluminum paint I've used, this stuff is a little too silvery for my tastes, but it looks better than the bare stained, dirty aluminum, and should help them stay clean. I'm going to paint all of my aluminum stuff for this reason. Well, I'm not going to paint the heads. That would be dumb.
#15
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Wed May 26, 2010 8:52 am
Got the torque plate yesterday. I took pics, transferred them to my thumb drive, then forgot to bring the thumb drive to work. :loser:
Today I'll be bringing my stuff to the machine shop. Hopefully next week I'll be able to get my freshly honed block back.
I guess it's time to start figuring out what color to paint the block. Originally i was going to go black, but now I'm thinking about a charcoal metallic, which is what I also want to paint the valve covers and intake. On the other hand, you don't really see the block, and if I ever want to change color schemes later, the black block will be better.
Hmm...
Got the torque plate yesterday. I took pics, transferred them to my thumb drive, then forgot to bring the thumb drive to work. :loser:
Today I'll be bringing my stuff to the machine shop. Hopefully next week I'll be able to get my freshly honed block back.
I guess it's time to start figuring out what color to paint the block. Originally i was going to go black, but now I'm thinking about a charcoal metallic, which is what I also want to paint the valve covers and intake. On the other hand, you don't really see the block, and if I ever want to change color schemes later, the black block will be better.
Hmm...
#17
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:34 pm
I picked up my block today, although it's still wrapped up in plastic so I haven't looked at it yet. Last week I received my Patriot Xtreme valve springs, along with a valve spring height checker.
Next on the "to do" list is to get the block painted and then coated in oil/WD40 so it won't rust between now and when I actually get a chance to do something to it.
I also need to get a ring file so that I can start gapping my rings.
I picked up my block today, although it's still wrapped up in plastic so I haven't looked at it yet. Last week I received my Patriot Xtreme valve springs, along with a valve spring height checker.
Next on the "to do" list is to get the block painted and then coated in oil/WD40 so it won't rust between now and when I actually get a chance to do something to it.
I also need to get a ring file so that I can start gapping my rings.
#18
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:24 am
Minor update on the progress. I got my block painted last night, and my ring file came in on Thursday, so I'll be ready to start working on the rings shortly. My poly motor mounts also came in, so I can start working on separating the clamshells, painting them, then re-assembling with the poly inserts. Once those are done, I can start test-fitting the k-member so that I can begin the necessary modifications for that.
I should have pics in a day or two.
Minor update on the progress. I got my block painted last night, and my ring file came in on Thursday, so I'll be ready to start working on the rings shortly. My poly motor mounts also came in, so I can start working on separating the clamshells, painting them, then re-assembling with the poly inserts. Once those are done, I can start test-fitting the k-member so that I can begin the necessary modifications for that.
I should have pics in a day or two.
#19
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Thursday, July 8 2010:
Pics of block.
All masked on the stand:
Hanging from hoist so I could mask the back and paint it:
All painted:
Bare metal greased back up slicker'n a stripper at the beach:
Pics of block.
All masked on the stand:
Hanging from hoist so I could mask the back and paint it:
All painted:
Bare metal greased back up slicker'n a stripper at the beach:
Last edited by Jim85IROC; 08-08-2011 at 09:24 PM.
#20
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:35 pm
Finally started filing piston rings. I've got 12 of the 16 finished. I gapped them at 19 thousands for the compression ring, 21 for the scraper. I got a little sloppy on a couple, one measured at 20 thousands and one at 21 thousands, but I checked with my machinist and he said that it's close enough... a couple thousands over isn't going to hurt anything.
I took pics, but I forgot to bring my memory stick to work to upload them. Hopefully tomorrow.
Once ring filing is done, I can move on to pre-assembly to check all of my bearing clearances.
I also need to get started on swapping the valve springs on the heads.
Finally started filing piston rings. I've got 12 of the 16 finished. I gapped them at 19 thousands for the compression ring, 21 for the scraper. I got a little sloppy on a couple, one measured at 20 thousands and one at 21 thousands, but I checked with my machinist and he said that it's close enough... a couple thousands over isn't going to hurt anything.
I took pics, but I forgot to bring my memory stick to work to upload them. Hopefully tomorrow.
Once ring filing is done, I can move on to pre-assembly to check all of my bearing clearances.
I also need to get started on swapping the valve springs on the heads.
#21
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Ok, so we're up to today.
Got the last 4 rings filed last night. Yay. Now I just need to verify clearances on the oil rings and I'm done with rings.
BTW, here is a pic of what a 19 thousands gap looks like:
Also, one of my packs of rings was differnet than the other 7. The first and second rings look the same, but the oil rings and the spacer ring look slightly different. I've got to email TSP and find out what the deal is. I would assume that these rings really don't play as crutial of a role as the top two, so I doubt it's a problem. Just odd.
Got the last 4 rings filed last night. Yay. Now I just need to verify clearances on the oil rings and I'm done with rings.
BTW, here is a pic of what a 19 thousands gap looks like:
Also, one of my packs of rings was differnet than the other 7. The first and second rings look the same, but the oil rings and the spacer ring look slightly different. I've got to email TSP and find out what the deal is. I would assume that these rings really don't play as crutial of a role as the top two, so I doubt it's a problem. Just odd.
Last edited by Jim85IROC; 08-08-2011 at 09:25 PM.
#22
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Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Awesome stuff! Looks like it's going to be a superrrrrrr clean build. May I ask what a torque plate is though? I've never seen one before.
#24
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Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
I only wish i had heads that were like that, i have to rock my 317s till i get ported 243s, then i should pick up plenty of extra power.
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Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
very cool . I love it
#27
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
The LSx platform was designed with very long head bolts to reduce cyl distortion when torqued. Most shops dont even use a torque plate when boring LSx engines. Good for GP though
Im curious why you started with a LQ9 for the build instead of a cheaper and more common LQ4. Both are 6.0L and everything that makes a '9 different than a '4 is getting replaced (cam and pistons)
Looks like a killer build though. You're going to love the end result
Im curious why you started with a LQ9 for the build instead of a cheaper and more common LQ4. Both are 6.0L and everything that makes a '9 different than a '4 is getting replaced (cam and pistons)
Looks like a killer build though. You're going to love the end result
#28
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Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Im using the g6x3 cam in my ls3 build..... Just got her running the other day. Alot of guys are putting down good power with these cam.... Just my .02 since you said you were looking for a cam.
#29
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Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
The LSx platform was designed with very long head bolts to reduce cyl distortion when torqued. Most shops dont even use a torque plate when boring LSx engines. Good for GP though
Im curious why you started with a LQ9 for the build instead of a cheaper and more common LQ4. Both are 6.0L and everything that makes a '9 different than a '4 is getting replaced (cam and pistons)
Looks like a killer build though. You're going to love the end result
Im curious why you started with a LQ9 for the build instead of a cheaper and more common LQ4. Both are 6.0L and everything that makes a '9 different than a '4 is getting replaced (cam and pistons)
Looks like a killer build though. You're going to love the end result
Hell, where i get my 6.0s from is a gamble, they are all sitting on the ground and you dont know if it is a 4 or a 9 till you pull a head, LOL.
#30
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
The plan was to get the LQ9 so I could just do heads/cam/intake and plunk it into the car. I never had any intention of doing a rebuild. Motor was advertised as having 62k on it by the wrecking yard. After I took delivery of the motor (and the attached VIN information), I ran a carfax and found out that the Caddy it came out of was totalled at 130k miles. I pulled the motor apart and found that it was PERFECT inside... the main bearings were like brand new. I should have put the main caps back on and left well enough alone, but I just couldn't stand the thought of putting a high mile (but perfect) motor into my car, so out came the credit card.
#31
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Minor update. Last night I started checking the gap on the oil rings. The specifications that came with the rings only said that they need to be 10 thousands or greater. Most measured between 13 and 22 thousands (there's some consistency :-/), but the set that came in the "oddball" package measured greater than 35 thousands. I'm not sure how I feel about that...
#33
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Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
man shane this thing is sweet!! and i get your old crank!! woot which will in turn allow me to build my lsx woot woot great build man super sick lookin
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Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
How much was t he nick williams tb? I need one for my 6 liter lsa headed s10.
Thanks,
kory
Thanks,
kory
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Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Very nice build you got going. More and more you guys are making me want to sell my small block and build an LSx.
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Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
#46
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Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
Oh and Jim, that's a way sweet build. You're going to Love it. Dean
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#48
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
#49
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,468
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Car: 89 IROC-Z
Engine: 370 LSX, LS3 Top End
Transmission: Built T-56
Axle/Gears: 9" Aluminum Center 3.89's
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
I for sure would have gone carb if i had a cowl already on the car, but factor in the cost for a new hood and new paint....
That's really the only reason i'm staying injected
That's really the only reason i'm staying injected
#50
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mt.Holly, NC USA
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Car: 1988 Camaro, 1986 S10, 2000 Harley
Engine: LS6
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.75 9" ford trac loc
Re: Build Thread - 85 IROC 402 LS3 6 speed
i know there's a lot of folks who think carbs are for the birds, but you set these things up right and the drivability is very similar, AND i no longer pay for tunes! i tweek things too often to need a quality tune every other week. that flat out costs too much! they don't look half bad either!