TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

hey guys so i decided to take down my master cylinder to do the drill mod becuase ive been having some issues with hard shifting from 1st to 2nd gear. and 2nd to 3rd gear. so i took it down and never paid attention to the angle it sits on. .

so while taking off the m/c i noticed cracks caused by the stress on the pedal .

this is a daily driven car. ls7 clutch kit. stock 02 master cylinder. and i drive it pretty hard.

the car used to be automatic. when i ran the 3rd gen pedals for my tpi/t56 swap i never had any issues.

any help ? any pics on your guys set up . front and inside

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

and heres my problem.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Which pedals are you running now?

This is why I switched from the 4th gen pedals. Not enought support.

I also had plans to make a plate, similar to what the 1st gen camaro and chevelle guys use. Its a plate that bolts behind the brake booster, and gives a solid, correctly placed location for the master cylinder. I was planning to weld mine vs. bolting behind the booster though.

Im not sure why your's is cracking so bad...but I started to see signs of that when I ran the 4th gen pedals.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I noticed on my factory 5-speed there is a metal support spot welded to where the master mounts. I always wondered the effects of people swapping to 5-speeds and not bracing that part.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

i am running the 4th gen pedals. the pedal themselves have a mounting brace in the interior. but its flimsy and i am sure its not accurately aligned to the 3rd gen fire wall. what do you guys suggest. ??


my original problem started with having issues shifting into second and third after 3k rpm. it does not grind or pop out of gear. but it just doesn't go in smooth like before. last night it just got worse i decided to stop the car.

if you guys arent aware of my set up its ls2 flywheel, ls7 clutch kit. no spacer.. someone told me to add one..
2 years these items the clutch kit, stock master cylinder (no drill mod) 02 slave. built gto tranny.

Spike-Z

iTrader: (4)

I cant really help you with your problem TPI but all I can tell you is to use the 3rd gen pedals. Just remove the clutch's peg from your 4th gen pedals and install it in the 3rd gen's. Im using a Tick performance master and its working flawlessly, I can hear a chirping sound from 1st to 4th when Im shifting gears. Oh and Im using an ls7 clutch too, no washers or spacers.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

i do recall seeing those braces on my old set up . they actually were able to move around right?

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

i was in the market for the tick performance m/c is it okay for a stock replacement ls7 clutch?

any pictures of how yours is mounted?

DeanJ

The TICK M/C is an excelent piece. It works well with with the LS7 clutch. It will mount in the stock location. It's a little pricey, but worth it IMO. I installed one when I did my swap, nary a problem. Also get a remote bleeder hose if you can shell out the extra$$$. It makes a crappy job effortless. I suggest going to the third gen pedal assy. Much better support than the fourth gen ones. Dean.

DeanJ

Also I have the LS2/ LS7 flywheel/clutch, F-Body GM slave. No spacers here either. Dean.

DeanJ

One other thing, if you do get the TICK/MC, I highly suggest you install it before you put the brake booster/MC back on. The mounting block is larger than the stock piece, and could be a little tough to get in there. Dean.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

You mean you guys actually remove the pedals when replacing the master cylinder?? Wow... I think when I installed mine the pedals and booster were in place.

I'm using 4th gen pedals also, and having the same symptoms TPI is having. I don't have the top support mounted on the pedals, actually I did t really know how to go about doing it since the car was originally an auto. Any suggestions?

Z28FAST1

Keisler has a kit that they use for classics to retrofit 6 speeds. I had the blueprints for the master cylinder support but I can't see them.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

found this.
http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62491

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

This is what Ive been preaching about for a couple years now. The flimsy 4th gen support bracket. Our firewalls arent designed to use that type of bracket, the 4th gens were. I was never able to make mine fit perfectly against the firewall either.

The two support bars on the 3rd gen pedals are WAY stronger if you ask me. And anyone that has played with both will agree Im sure.

Tick is a great choice. You'll probably want to remove the booster to install the new master cylinder. Especially if your car was an auto, and you drilled your own master cylinder holes. If you are off by a little, the TICK can hit the inner wheel well. I had to dent mine a bit so the rear of the TICK would fit. Its a good bit bigger than the stock style. Well worth the price and install hassle though.

TPI I would def reinforce that area now that its started to crack. Im not sure, but there's always a chance that you could bust that area and lose your clutch all together. You can either use some supplimental pieces of metal and bolt them in the area somehow, or if you can, weld some more steel to help out.

J.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

Sooo...I think I'm going to find some 3rd gen pedals and put those in with my Tick master cylinder. One question though:

For my situation (car used to be an auto), what's the best method of mounting that top support with the 3rd gen pedals? Is there an easy way to drill out a hole for it, and use a huge self-tapping screw? Or is there even a hole already there that was used with the auto pedals? I really don't know...I didn't pay much attention when removing the old pedals. Any input would be great.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Are you referring to the tab on the pedals that takes a bolt vertically?

If so, then there is already a threaded hole ready to go. It doesnt line up with the 4th gen pedals, without egging out the hole in the pedal bracket. But the 3rd gen pedals will 100% bolt up nice and neat. The auto pedals use this bolt also.

Snug up the booster bolts, then install that upper bolt. Then tighten the booster bolts the rest of the way. Your pedals are in the right spot now. Then just loosen the axle for the pedals' swivel point, and adjust the support arms.

Enjoy your now much more sturdy pedal set up!

J.

P.S....hole closest to the bottom of the pic. Thats where you are talking about right? See how its all deformed and widened out? Thats what I had to do to get the bolt in for the 4th gen pedals.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

This is the one I'm talking about, the long rod looking thing at the top left in the first photo. It's got an eyelet on it that you can see from the angle in the 2nd photo.

*Does anything look out of place on these pedals to you? I'm purchasing them tomorrow and want to make sure it's going to work with my application. The reason I ask is because the rod that is directly behind the brake pedal looks out of place. It looks like the tensioner rod for the throttle cable on the throttle pedal. But it's right behind the brake pedal? And does the sensor for the clutch switch look out of place to you? Maybe I'm going crazy...I don't know. And these don't have the half-moon that goes around the master cylinder like the 4th gen pedals that I have on the car currently... Anyways, I'm buying this tomorrow so if there's anything wrong with them let me know and I won't buy them. *

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Did you keep the interior brace on the 4th gen pedals that has the MC bolts through it? You can see it in the upper left corner of this pic (best I could find on this computer).




The firewall holes changed through the 3rd gen years. I had to put a plate around my MC because there was a hole for the clutch cable that wasn't quite in the right place for the MC, and left a gap when the MC was installed. It probably doesn't provide much structural support, though. I'm wondering if they changed the gauge of the firewall in later years as well - mine seems fine (although it hasn't been on the road/track very long yet).

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

I haven't removed the 4th gen pedals from the car yet. So I guess I can remove that MC brace from them and put it on the 3rd gen pedals (it appears it's missing on those pedals)?

Was your car originally a stick? The reason I ask is because of the holes in the firewall and tunnel where your hydrolic line goes. I have my line just going back behind the driver side of the block along the side of the transmission.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Nick,

Those pedals look good. The bar you are seeing that looks out of place, is out of place. That should be rotated down so that it bolts to the other master cylinder bolt. Hold on...Im sure I have a couple pics.

That also appears to be an older set. From a 82-86 I believe. The clutch safety switches were different on those. From 87-02 they all used the same clutch safety switch. Shouldnt bother you too much though because it looks like you have the switch and the pigtail. Make sure he sends those with the pedals.

Five7: Even with that bracket on the 4th gen set my firewall flexed like crazy. I did not have the clutch cable hole like your car does. One thing I feel could have helped would be flanging out the opening for the master cylinder. Anything to give some rigidity to the steel. Good call on routing the line inside the car by the way. I have had ZERO issues with melted things or boiled fluid. Except for the fluid in the slave cylinder...







Those braces are like 3/8" solid stock...once you tighten the pivot/axle bolt for the pedals, and tighten the master cylinder bolts, things get sturdy in a hurry.

J.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

No, mine was originally an automatic. I had to put the holes in the correct place on the firewall for the MC. I made the holes for the clutch line to route it in and out of the passenger compartment (didn't want to route it next to the headers, even though the headers are ceramic coated). This is what it looks like from underneath:




From the engine compartment:




After I took the pictures I sealed the grommets with silicone RTV.

A couple inches of line with minimal exposure to exhaust seemed a lot better to me than a foot of it running right next to the exhaust.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

Wow thanks for the pictures, that helps out a LOT! I see how it's supposed to go now, those two rods go in place of the "half moon" support on the 4th gen pedals.

Quick question about the sensors since you brought that up. Am I going to have to cut the wiring to my brake pedal and splice them to a new kind of sensor for the brake pedal on this assembly, or did the brake switches stay the same through the years?

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

To five7kid:

That's pretty interesting, although I probably won't bother with the extra work because the stainless headers I'm using (SSW) seem to not get near as hot as regular headers. That and I had zip-tied the line on the current setup to the steering column shaft to keep it nice and taught close to the firewall.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I used a 3rd gen brake light switch in the 4th gen pedal assembly, so I'd assume you could go the other way if you wanted.

From getto's pics, it looks like the 4th gen clutch switch would fit in the 3rd gen pedal assy.

In case anyone is wondering, with the carpet back down, you can't even tell the clutch hose is there. Doesn't get in the way of the accelerator pedal, no lump in the carpet, etc.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

I actually don't even have my clutch switch hooked up right now. I didn't have the male end to splice into the wiring, which is included with the pedals I'm getting. So maybe I'll finally do that now.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Nick, Did you check behind your kick panel to see if the clutch safety wiring was already there? In both my 86 and 87, the plug was already there.

In your case, you'll need to swap over the plug, because your car is newer than the style of switch that is coming with your pedals. Make sense?

As for your brake switch wiring, there are a couple options there. Your existing switch might fit into one of the holes just fine. On those older pedals, they might not. You can either wire the switches that you are getting up to work, or find some that fit, that have the same pigtail as you already have. You'll probably find that the switches will fit though.


Five7: the clutch switch that is the "safety switch" (not the one that cancels the cruise control or tells the PCM that the clutch is in) is the same from 87-02. Same part number and all. Its just a black button that gets hit when the clutch is down. The style that nick is getting (82-86 i think), uses a short little linkage to actuate it. I 99% sure the newer style switch will not fit on his pedals. It takes a specific bracket to accept the newer switch. He should still be fine though. Since he has the old switch and pigtail.

Just a quick example from my swaps. On my 87, I used 4th gen pedals. So it had the new style switch. The plug that I found behind my kick panel fit the new switch perfectly. When I went to build the 86, I switched to 3rd gen pedals, and transferred the new style switch over to the 3rd gen pedals. The plug that I found behind the kick panel did not fit the new switch. So I swapped the plug ends from the 87 to the 86 so it would work.

Just in case...you can see where my clutch safety wiring is. The purple/yellow wires, and you can just see the plug poking out from the right. I think this is before I switched the pig tails, so that plug in the pic probably matches the old switch that you'll be getting.



J.

mwfrels

Let me take a shot at posting images again. Perhaps this might help you guys:







The U-Bracket (item# 15) will help rigidity even more if you can get one.

Z28FAST1

That's what i was thinking as well. Check this out...


Looks like it should be plenty of reinforcement on the firewall and maybe you can add something to reinforce the MC by the driver's side pedals...





I followed 70LS1 in making my own bracket to mount the F-body master cylinder on and used the Speedway 36inch line and two end fitting to connect the Slave cylinder to the master cylinder. I used 16 gauge steel sheets. Two plates, one on the inside of the car and one for the firewall/engine side and a third to make the master cylinder angle line up with the pedal right. Just need to bleed the system then test drive. Thanks

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

That pedal diagram will work for the newer thirdgens. 87+ at least. A lot of the part numbers are unfortunately obsolete now though. Which is a bummer because I could use a few bits and pieces.

The u-bolt doesnt do anything for rigidity though. If it does, its very very miniscule. Im pretty sure its sole purpose was so that you could tighten the master cylinder bolts without having to hold the bolts from the outside. Especially with the booster installed. I made one at one point, but ditched it when I got the TICK.

Here's the one I made...you can build one easier than you can find one to buy probably.



Those plates are probably to adapt the master to a different firewall. The issue is, you cant space the master cylinder away from the firewall on our cars. You'll start taking throw away...unless you have an adjustable. You could plate the inside though, which is what I would suggest if you want to try it. You will want to form the plate so that it fits the contours of the firewall pretty tight.

One of the main issues is just all the holes and clutter around our master cylinder. Steering rack, loom grommets, wiring...its all over the place down there. Not a lot of real estate to make plates and reinforcements. Thats why I like the 3rd gen pedals so much. They support the master cylinder from both sides. So the master cylinder cant move.

With the 4th gen set, it can and will pitch out some when you get into the pedal. There just isnt enough support.

J.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

I guess the only thing that concerns me is when I cut the holes out in the firewall for the MC, it didn't line up the first try, so I essentially have two small holes for each bolt on each side of the MC, which I hope the tick will line up with the 3rd gen support brackets in one of the sets of holes, otherwise I won't have any structural rigidity left if I have to cut two more holes.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

The thirdgen support rods are very adjustable. Which makes them pretty useless for drilling the holes...but they should easily adjust and fit your pre-drilled holes. All you have to be is close. If you werent close, the thing would have not worked in the first place.

If you were worried about the extra holes causing more weakness, you can always put a piece of alum plate, or steel plate, on the inside of the firewall. The support brackets will adjust enough to compensate for the extra piece of metal.

I had an extra hole in my 87 too...so dont feel bad haha. I used the trial and error holes in my 87 to get the holes on the first try in the 86. It was a pain in the rear honestly. I wish the metal was dimpled or marked from the factory.

J.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

If I get time, I'll take a picture of my GTA's firewall. It's a stock 5-speed car. I remember seeing a stock reinforcement plate welded to the firewall... I think it's on the inside as you mentioned, but I honestly can't remember. I'll try to get time to snap a couple pics tonight.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

that is very intersting. i cut out the firewall on a factory 5 speed car to get my conversion holes drilled in EXACTLY the right spot and there was no extra bracing. the car i got the firewall from was unknown in yeah though, was mid to late 80's

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Maybe I'm wrong.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I was hoping it was a year specific thing.

mwfrels

I added the list for the earlier '84 to '91 cars as well. I agree that a lot if not all of the numbers listed show up obsolete but sometimes you get lucky when you have the person at the GM counter look up the part. Even though the numbers on the old lists are obsolete a significant percentage have been superseded by a different number or just renumbered to a different or newer number. These new numbers won't have any links to them on sites like gmpartsdirect and such. The old number just shows unavailable.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

hey guys well im almost done attempting the 3rd gen pedal swap for today .


he 4th gen pegs has been removed. ready to weld in .

but on the forth gen the peg it point towards the left (inside the car)driver side wheel and the 3rd gen is the opposite (passenger).

now with the 4th gen peg in place on the 3rd gen clutch pedal it will be pointing stock direction of the 3rd gen peg? is this right?

meaning that the 3rd gen complete assembly is closer to eachother idk

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Here are the two side by side. 3rd gen on the left...4th on the right. As Im sure you know since you have both in front of you



Just put the 4th gen peg in place the 3rd gen peg. Simple as that. The 4th gen pedal has a bigger offset, but you'll notice that the peg ends up in the same place laterally. Im assuming you already drilled out the 3rd gen hole to fit the peg right? So just slip it in the same way.

Like this.



You'll have a nice litle recess in the back to fill with weld.





I actually thought it was much easier to get the rod onto the peg after doing this. Just make sure you get the rod on there before you tighten the master cylinder up, because you might need to move it around some to get it on there. Especially if you have an adjustable with a rod end. I also have some factory clips if you dont have one...Ill send one to you if you'd like...and if I can find them.


J.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

Shoot where were you when I lost my clip the first time around.

I'm pretty excited to do this. My pedals will be here on Wednesday, I've already got the old ones out along with the master cylinder and brake booster, and steering column. I'm actually going to be tidying up the wiring a LOT because my first time around I wasn't happy with how it looked. I'll show you guys what I'm dealing with later.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

ghettocruiser

thanks. i was a bit confused looking at it ready to be mounted. i was wondering if the peg hit the assembly but i forgot that the master cylinder sits at an angle. yeah i have the factory clips they seem to fit on there better than anything else. im drew out a template for my friends dad and im waiting to get a plate welded in.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

updates. finally got around the issue.
i didnt take too many pic but you guys have an idea. plate welded on .
added the 3rd gen pedals and a ram adj master.




my first to second at wot disappeared. but now im having issues going from 3rd to fourth at higher rpm.
i feel the pedal a bit too soft. and i noticed that the 3rd gen pedals don't have any type of tension spring on the clutch pedal.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

Justin said that you won't need the tension spring. In fact when I was reading the instructions for my new Tick MC, it says in there that sometimes you might find it beneficial to remove that spring. It mostly helps push the clutch IN, rather than bringing it back out.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

sounds good. for some reason it just feels too soft.
on the other hand im planning to adjust the rod length on the mc. its pretty even to the brake pedal. i feel like its a bit too short.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

I originally had mine fully extended, which is about two inches or so out passed the brake pedal.