Atilla the Fun

Trick question. Best for what? Top end HP, NO!
None of the forums have any dyno results for any REAL 6.0L combos, so I had very little reference material.
I found 3 good references, and since 2 of them came from the same engine on the same dyno, if taken together they prove the torque loss at low rpm from switching to L92 heads.
But starting from the new lower baseline, ( which sucks for me because I'm not considering L92 heads ) This link shows that there is a cam grind possible that builds noticeably more torque than the stock cam at low rpm, like 1500 rpm, and makes killer top end power.
http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/_r...HopUpPart2.pdf
462.2 hp at 5600 rpm isn't very impressive, but the average HP is just fine.
The black line curve, test N, is the stock cam, while the bright red line curve, test O is the cam I'm evaluating.

Atilla the Fun

Now, Test N was stock cam, L92 / LS3 heads and 1.7:1 rockers, and L76 / LS3 intake. Backing up to the 317 heads with FAST intake and 1.7:1 rockers was test I.
At 1500 rpm Test I made 355.3 ft-lbs, while test N was down to 327.7 ft-lbs. So the switch from 317 heads to L92 heads cost 27.6 ft-lbs at 1500 rpm. The mild cam added 19.6 ft-lbs at 1500 rpm, with the L92 heads. And the FAST intake lost 4.3 ft-lbs at 1500 rpm on the 317 heads, compared to the truck intake. .
That's where the facts end. From here, I'm extrapolating.
So if we take the torque difference at 1500 rpm, tests N & O, and apply that to test I, then in theory, this mild cam would push an LQ9 to 374.9 ft-lbs at 1500 rpm with the FAST intake.
That's impressive.
But taking it a step farther, the truck intake, in theory, would yield 379.2 ft-lbs.
Who needs more stroke? Apparently, I don't.

Klortho

Here Atilla, this is a buddies T/A that he built with a 6.0 with a set of TEA castings, put 470 at the wheels and ran 7.30 in the 1/8th no spray or forced induction

Forged 370 iron block build, TEA Heads, Hydraulic Roller 242/248 .615 cam 110lsa, Fast 92 Intake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCGnG...os=gFdKSP-GNP0

Atilla the Fun

He? did a beautiful job of filling the rear wheelwells, but needs to learn how to powershift.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My friends new camaro ss with ported LS3/L92 type heads LS3 intake and TSP's 231/236 cam makes great power. That heavy car runs 116 mph with a rough street tune in hot air with high winds conditions. We expect it to go 120 in good air and dyno tuned. Its a fairly small cam for a 6+ liter but works. Its got healthly lift and 111 lsa. Car made 400whp/405wtq with just exhaust bolt ons and LS3 intake. Closer to 500 whp would be realistic with the ported heads and cam. Great overall powerband with good power up top.

My other friend has a 80's elcamino with a truck 6 liter, truck intake, stock heads i think, with a pollutr cam. Its in the low 240's duration and it runs mid 11's at 119mph. Very stout combination for a truck intake/stock heads setup. I think its a stock head setup but I'd have to double check.

Atilla the Fun

I think you guys are filing to notice that in the OP I specified "REAL" combos. If the intake lobe is bigger than 222 duration at 0.050", then the cam is instamatically disqualified from reality for all eternity.
In reality, 99.619 % of the engine's life is spent below 2000 rpm, not trying to get past 6200 rpm. I hope y'all can someday come to reality for a week long visit. But beware, the torque and quietness are extremely addictive. Way more so than the adrenaline rush of any 7000 rpm wail. No need to make reservations, either. We always have a place for one more.
I know you guys are young, I remember the days when I had to try the best-flowing heads available with bottom-of-the-page, solid-roller cams, single plane intakes, 850 Holleys and the biggest headers offered. 7000 rpm and 4.56:1 gears is something that must be experienced. But it can't continue for long.
I hope you graduate soon, because this is so much more satisfying, in a whole different way that you can't yet comprehend. Kind of like how sixty year old couples prefer the real, deep, meaningful love of their forties to the frantic and passionate lovemaking of their twenties.

techrunner

so this makes me think i should leave my 317 heads on there, because i don't really ever race it, and i don't want to give up any torque if i don't have to. is this your custom cam grind then? i am thinking about looking for a real torquey can for my lq4 swap, so i'll watch this thread.

Atilla the Fun

The cam they tested was from Crane, but Crane went out of business and everything was liquidated. And besides, COMP has some lobes with the same duration, but even more lift. That'll build even more torque, but may mean buying longer pushrods. And since all stock LS pushrods need upgraded anyway, I'm willing to go custom just for the extra lift.
If you want to copy the Crane but with more lift, ask for COMP's lobe number 3708 intake, and lobe number 3712 exhaust.
The Crane had 0.531" / 0.531" valve lift with 1.7:1 stock rockers, which I'm keeping, and these COMP lobes will give 0.556" / 0.563" lift with 1.7:1.
If you want mega torque down low, to the point of no real gains up top, then a 3707 / 3709 on a 112 lobe separation angle would be even better. But so far no one has posted any dyno results of anything close to that.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

http://cranecams.com/?show=crane-ss

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

They are real combos..they arent screamers or insanely loud setups. They dont go to 7K rpm unless you want to. They make torque everywhere and then some. My buddys pollutr cam is on the big side I agree, but is very driveable with the tune it has. Its not that aggressive since it is 6 liter motor.

The smaller cam setups drive around much better than a stock cammed setup. In that idle to 2000 rpm range of cruising and daily driving, the cammed setup will make bit more power and you should feel that at a 55 mph cruise when you give it another 15% more gas to pick up speed to pass a car or something. The 231 cam is a mild cam for a 6 liter.

Above 2000 you start to feel the big difference in power as the cam comes on. Below that, the setup wont loose anything and infact should have some gain.

Texas speed shows their LS3 dyno results with that 231/236 cam. It will peak near 6400-6500 but is flat from there on out and isnt loosing much at 5800-6200 rpm. Stock setups are done by 6K and flatline. It makes more power however from 2700 rpm on up just about. Everywhere else below 2500 it seems there is no difference. I would consider something in the mid high 220's to 230 deg duration with loads of lift. Its a real nice cam for a setup like that since you dont want a lot of rpms

If you dont want L92 style heads, same thing would apply. Mid high 220's duration is fine. It will make more power everywhere from 2500-6200 while keeping below 2500 about the same perhaps more. Not many dynos start runs below 2500. Not much to look at there. A car only needs 50hp to move at 60mph in most cases.... Just food for thought.

No thanks I'll keep to my violent street cars. I do not see how one can enjoy that style and know many old guys that are still riding in powerful cars. To each his own

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

The used too much timing with the carb setup, they netted the most HP and killed the TQ.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

BTW, here is a guy that makes some killer cams that really knows what he is doing. He can custom grind as well and he is simply a bad dude when it comes down to it:

http://www.engpwrsys.com/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=10

He breaks down weather cathedral port or square port heads as well as 4.8/5.3 or 6.7-6.2 engine sizes.

Atilla the Fun

My friend has an '01 Z28 with a TR224, T56, 3.42:1 and he had it tuned twice. Driveability is as follows:
In first gear, it's like stock from 700 rpm to 6500 rpm. You can even be idling along at 700 rpm at what 5 mph? Then go WOT, and it responds as it should.
But in sixth gear, as we start up the canyon, going 65 mph (speed limit is posted 60, 2 lanes in each direction), the torque isn't there to maintain speed, and about 1050-1100 rpm it starts surging. So shift to fifth.
Get back on flat highway, in fifth gear, 1100 rpm, then go WOT, it's like the thing is in limp home mode, and you can feel it's not up on the cam yet, not in the powerband. It's very easy to tell that 3000 is the beginning of the powerband.
I admit that any granny could daily drive this thing forever, as is, but from such a modern, high tech engine, I expect even better. and If I have to be out of breath by 6200 to have it, that's fine. That's what ATI ProChargers are for.
My modest cam plus ProCharger will still kill any L92 headed LQ9 with MS4 or TRex or other such cam but no boost or spray.
Cam for off-idle torque, since cubes and cam are your only help. You can't add 13.5 psi at 1100 rpm, nor can you spray at 1100 rpm.
I want the power to kill imports, just as badly as any of you want it. But I'll also have low end that you can't get any other way.
Sensible cam plus boost beats all-motor with borderline cam. For mpg, for emissions, for driveability and for fun. The LS6 cam isn't sensible, the intake valve opening happens about 15 degrees later than necessary. For NO GOOD reason. And that angers me greatly. The L69 cam had the same problem, and every GM V8 cam in between.
I'm not saying your way doesn't add power that can be driven. I'm trying to convince you that there is a preferable alternative for those willing to make the extra investment.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont know many cars that feel strong when going WOT at 1100 rpm in 5th gear... That just doesnt work well on any setup.

LS6 cam is a 400whp cam on some setups (IE bolt on Ls6 motors), its not a bad grind. It flat hauls to 6000 rpm+ in Z06's with full bolt ons. What more do you want from a cam?
Stock LS3/L76 or w/e they are now in the new corvettes and camaros is a 400whp/400wtq motor with stock cam with just bolt ons. Thats very stout and is a mid 11 second car in a 3rd gen platform with stock driveability and gas mileage and emissions if you get emissions headers. Thats a stump pulling motor

I just dont understand what you are asking here. If you want insane torque at idle, go big block or huge cubic inch LSx if you want LSx, or even diesel. CUbes is the only way to do it with small cams. For the crazy top end power with small cams, nitrous or boost is the only thing you can do. I agree with you there.
Try a big inch motor with a long runner truck intake with good flowing cathedral heads, small cam and a blower. SHould have all 3 of your goals in that motor

Atilla the Fun

I'm not asking anything, I'm doing what I always do in all of my posts, I'm trying to benefit others from what I've learned the hard way. I know that some of you guys really do know it all, and others don't claim to, but every single person who reads anything I've typed could learn something if only they'd take the attitude of them being my student. Since I can't find any way to get money for what I know, what I've spent so much of my own time and money to learn, the next best thing I can do is to give it freely to my fellow enthusiasts.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

oh... from the title and your first 2 posts it sounded like you were asking for a cam and some combinations others have tried while sharing the results from the magazine.

Did you write the article for that magazine?

Klortho

The stock LS1 in my '98 doesn't have any power at 1100 rpm in 6th gear with 3.42 gears, but at 60mph in 6th gear I'm running a tad under 1500 rpm.

Atilla the Fun

No.

I do want to see more dyno results, but only with sensible cams. I started with a trick question just to grab people's interest.

Atilla the Fun

I understand that. Look how late your intake valves close with that cam. Look how much earlier they close with Crane's 210 intake lobe on a 110 degree intake centerline. that's the main reason why the Crane was able to add nearly 20 ft-lbs down at 1500 rpm, and why it peaked at just 5600 rpm.
And my calculator shows that you should be doing exactly 1340 rpm at exactly 60 mph. GM speedometers do tend to be about 2 mph off, to help you get fewer speeding tickets.

Klortho

Most cams people are putting in the Gen 3+ cars have more than 222 duration.

Atilla the Fun

I've noticed. It makes me sad and angry, but it's a free country.

Klortho

Funny thing about it, and I know why people are doing it is the stock cams are:

1998 - 2000 Fbody
202/210 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.496" / 0.496" int/exh lift
116 LSA

2001 - 2002 Fbody
197/207 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.467" / 0.479" int/exh lift
116 LSA

2001 LS6 cam
207/217 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.525" / 0.525" int/exh lift
116 LSA

2002+ LS6 cam
204/218 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.551" / 0.547" int/exh lift
117 LSA


Then you get into these:

GMPP Hot Cam
218/227 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.525" / 0.525" int/exh lift
112 LSA

GMPP ASA Cam
226/236 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.525" / 0.525" int/exh lift
110 LSA

and the Hot Cam is considered a "mild" cam

Atilla the Fun

But I've driven the HOT, and it doesn't drive at all like a stock cam. Mild? Yes, but it's just a really poor cam all the way around. Evolving a grind that worked great for SBCs to go into the LSx's was a really dumb move. Typical GM.

Klortho

Oh I agree totally on that, the hot cam really isn't hot at all. Most of the good cams I've seen have come from TS&P and some of the Comp cams and Lloyd Elliot (which have some good grinds):

218/214 .578/.578 112 LSA - "sleeper cam" with smooth idle and TONS of TQ at every RPM from idle to 6000 RPM. This cam is a "torque monster".

223/218 .601/.558 112 LSA - mild idle, can be used with stock gears and no stall. Good all around power. 1500-6200 RPM.

230/226 .600/.600 113 LSA - choppy idle, works well with 3200-3600 stall and 3.73/4.11 gears. 2100-6800 RPM.

234/230 .600/.600 113 LSA - great cam for stroker engines wanting strong mid range and top end power. Works best with 3600-4400 stall and 3.73/4.11 gears. 2500-6800 RPM.

Atilla the Fun

Are those reverse split, or did you list them backwards? I've dynoed reverse split cams in AFR headed SBCs, and they're no advantage. They make for narrow peaky powerbands. That's fine if you're going to short shift a close ratio manual trans, but they don't drive well.
When I spec a custom SBC cam, I look at the application, then I decide when I want my intake valve closing, and when I want my exhaust valve opening, and when I want my intake valve opening. Then I decide how much overlap, or non-overlap, the application calls for. that tells me where the exhaust closing has to be. Then, with those 4 numbers, I can calculate the duration and then the lobe separation.
This is the only correct way to do it.
If you'd like to see me do it, make up a reasonable combination for me. choose well known stuff. block, bore, stroke, compression, heads, intake, headers, OD trans, converter if automatic, gears, tires and vehicle year, weight and usage.

Klortho

Those were copied/pasted right off of Lloyd's website.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Disclaimer: I don't have a dyno in my garage, and I don't even have my LS motor built yet, so feel free to consider me a blow-hard and ignore everything I'm about to tell you. However, I have done a LOT of research/homework in preparation for my own cam selection.

There are currently a boatload of threads on ls1tech regarding cams with L92 heads, both on 6.0s and on stroker motors. There is significant information available, both real world examples with dyno information as well as great technical background that should be sufficient to help you pick your own grind.

Of course, there's also the option of just buying a pre-determined grind from one of the sponsors who have invested considerable development time in coming up with cams specifically for those motors. Texas Speed, Virginia Speed, Lingenfelter and others all have custom grinds specifically for these motors. Keep in mind that an LS3 is only a few cubic inches bigger than a 6.0, so generally most LS3 cams are going to work great on a 6.0 with L92 heads.

Now, to address your first couple posts specifically: I would be very cautious about a lot of the assumptions that you've made based on what you've seen so far. First off, that Hot Rod article is from 2007... at that point nobody knew what to do with the L92 heads yet. Testing has shown that those heads require a VERY different cam profile from what the cathedral port heads need, and back in 07 I don't think that had been firmly established yet. People were using known grinds that worked on cathedral port heads. Sure, the L92s still made power, but they were not optimized. I think this has a lot to do with why you're seeing such a low rpm torque loss compared to the 317 heads.

Secondly... because of the differences in cam requirements, if you're going to stick with 317 heads instead of L92s, forget about cams designed for use with L92s. There's absolutely no shortage of info on cams for stock 6.0s... there are hundreds, maybe thousands of guys on LS1tech and the corresponding truck forums who are running 6.0 combos with all kinds of various cams. There is an endless amount of information out there for you to learn from and pick a cam that will suit you. Likewise, every one of the sponsors on ls1tech have a boatload of experience with cammed 6.0s and will be happy to suggest an appropriate cam.

Now... on to the L92s specifically. These heads want a very specific type of camshaft. The intake ports on these heads flow massive amounts of air... like good aftermarket Big Block head kinds of flow. The exhaust flows more or less about the same as the cathedral heads. Because of this, a split duration cam will provide the best results. Typical cam profiles for cathedral heads don't use a split profile, or if it is split, it's only a minor split. 224/224, 224/230, etc. Typical durations seen with L92 heads are 224/236, 224/240, 230/240, etc. Another big variation in what the L92 heads like has to do with the amount of overlap. Most engines, including LS motors with cathedral heads, like some overlap because it helps pull the intake charge into the combustion chamber if you've got the exhaust valves cracked open. With the L92s, this isn't the case. They seem to make more power, ESPECIALLY AT LOW RPM with no overlap. I think this is why so many early tests made the L92s look weak at low rpm. Once people started using cams with wider LSAs, they started finding low rpm power with no losses up top. A reverse split cam, like a lot of those listed above, would likely be HORRIBLE on an L92 headed motor.

Generally what I've seen is that you want a lot of lift, and a wide LSA. With any L92 cam, that should more or less be a constant. Based on where you want your power band to be, you adjust your duration numbers. It seems that backing off on duration doesn't cost you too much peak power... it just moves it lower in the rpm range. A 224/236 cam will make similar peak power and the same average power as a 234/245 cam. Peak hp and torque will be at lower rpm, and the torque/hp curves will be very similar in shape... just shifted to the left a little.

Here's a great article with some very good background on a lot of this:
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...son/index.html

Read between the lines... don't just look at what cam makes the most peak power... actually look at what those specific cams are doing and compare that to some of the information that the article gives you. There's a lot to learn there.

Atilla the Fun

Well Jim, I see you put a lot into this thread, and I appreciate it. I fear you may have a few ideas about me that are slightly off. I've read and understood every cam thread and every dyno thread on www.ls1tech.com, it's taken me hundereds of hours of early morning reading for months.
I've been speccing and dynoing cams for years, longer than I've been a machinist, longer than LS1s have existed.
I admit my relative inexperience with the LSx family. But it hardly matters, because I know how to divide the exhaust flow number by the intake flow number, and choose proper cam split based on that.
I do come across as a know it all who doesn't really, and a braggart, and that's unfortunate.
But cams are my forte. I'm better than Vizard. I was offered a position by one of the major cam companies, staffing their phone-in cam recommendation thing. I can't specify which company, or I'll get sued.
None of the guys on ls1tech ever talk about how the thinner air at higher elevation affects the flow percentage requirements or the cam specs. And since I live up here where the air is thin, I've spent thousands to study this.
There's so much that the average enthusiast will never even consider. You're doing a lot better.
You may notice that recently I've begun giving away much more info on TGO, and that's because I've recently found out that my time is much shorter than I thought. I still have time for one more fun build, but I'm not gonna be answering questions a year from now.
The LSx isn't an off-idle-torque engine, because of the old TPI 350. But I'm wanting to show guys that you can have it both ways from the LSx.
I only listed 3 references, because to even mention all my references would take this entire website. Those 3 work for the purpose, and anyone can grasp 3.
Guys, Jim is beginning to get much more of the pic than most of you. I wish all of you would learn intensively like he's trying to. Not just keep asking newb questions. Newbs should never even type advice, they should only be allowed to ask questions. I don't mean forum newbs, I mean car newbs.
TGO assigning senior member status based on number of posts is wrong. If it were based on knowledge, there are only 2 dozen ( or less ) of us in each sub-forum.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The problem is 95% of people are looking to cam these motors up for good hp numbers. They run alot of converter or more gear for stick shift cars and dont care about sub 2000 rpm performance. Its harder to justify spending 1500 on cam swap parts just to gain 20lbft at 1500 rpm and only gain about 15-20 hp peak.

But for those who want that application of massive torque everywhere while keeping good overall hp, I agree there is alot to be had in a camshaft and can be done in a LSx platform. Off the shelf grinds work ok but to get it all a custom grind for the application is needed.

Its so easy to overcam these motors. I've seen alot of huge cam setups just not run strong. I love the sound of a big cam but when you can make similar numbers with smaller duration, I'll take that.

I caught this line and was wondering what exactly you mean by this?

$750 L98

Atilla I wish I could find some one like you down south to teach me some things. I have an extreme interest in cams, but like you are saying it's a subject with no right or wrong, and more variables than most care to calculate.

Back when I was just getting into LSx motors, I went with the LQ9, beefiest motor available when you looked at cost vs power. L92 wasn't even a big dog yet. I had a shop talk me into a XER281HR cam with the stock motor, comp 921 kit, and a 2800 stall. It was a hacked together car, and not because of the parts chosen, but the care with which it was assembled.

It put down 360rwtq from around 1500rpm+, and this was back when it had 3 exhaust leaks, a dead O2, 3 TB vacuum leaks, locked drum brakes, a stock 5.7 tune with too much timing, and a dying torque converter (shop used a stock rebuild with the wrong flexplate and LQ9 spacer, this stripped the input shaft off).

Now that most of that is fixed the car drives very nicely, I went to small with the converter and the car seems as if it would like a 3500+ stall, but it is very mild to drive. The torque off the line is far more than most TPI setups produce and it will pull all the way to ~7,000rpm.

On the same token there is a local guy running 400rwhp with a stock LS6 camshaft. I mostly just wanted the ability to run the band higher and still retain good characteristics down low - and have a bit of that rough idle.

What cam did you go with and do the LS1 heads cause any turbulence/valve shrouding issues?

Atilla the Fun

Why do you need someone near your place on the map? Why can't you learn online? Scroll up to post 25 in this thread, and take me up on that offer I made.

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

i read everything you post about power and combos. and ask all kinds of questions. but one line in one of your posts caught me by suprise.

better than david vizard. although i know you have much experience. and that is one hell of a statement. cool. i am going to follow the first build you put out there. i trust it will turn out great except for darn hood clearance.

why only a year?????

Atilla the Fun

the issue about a year, = private. Let's stick to cars.
I have publicly proven Vizard wrong. One case remains uncontested, even by Vizard himself. I didn't even have to do my own engine build to do it, either. I used a build from a car magazine.
In fact I do that quite a lot, but I generally copy them for myself, to see if I can get numbers within 2%. My numbers are consistently low, so I use the magazine numbers.
Vizard is pretty good. You can go with what he says and get his results, without worrying about hurting the engine. But his theories about lobe separations don't always hold up. I proved that. And he often fails to add extra exhaust duration with heads that REALLY NEED it.
Worst of all, he's a HP junkie, like the guys on www.Ls1tech.com. He'd fit right in there. Except that he seems to think hydraulic rollers are inferior to solid non-rollers, and I can dis-prove that as well, if necessary.
Anyway, Vizard got some lucky breaks that I didn't. I don't resent him for it. Or for anything. I resent God, for many things, but that's off-topic.

$750 L98

This is just personal preference but a lot of people have pulled junkyard LQ9 motors and run them through the wringer, and they still shine. In fact one of them used a stock LQ9 long block to get into the 9's single turbo with a new GTO. Plus I'm just biased toward good old American Iron. I'd go with a LQ9.

Here is my version of a "reality build", good street manners, and usable power on those streets:

Chassis: 3rd gen, preferably base Formula or camaro, basic options.

Long-block: LQ9 long block

Intake: LS6 intake

Cam: CheatR for off the shelf (curious these might perform even better in the LS1's bigger sibling), or:
Custom reverse split (23X/22X dur@.050", 113 or greater LSA, lift under .590)

Heads: Stock LQ9

Springs: Comp 921 spring/retainer kit

Lifters: LS7 or Morel LS1 link bar lifters

Pushrods: Hardened 3/8 pushrods

Headers: LS1 shorty headers or hawk's 1 7/8th

Cat back: 3.5" Mufflex

Trans: 4L60E or T56 built to suit

Converter: 3200 Stall

Ring/pinion: 3.42

I am currently working on getting mine set up in a similar way, though I will stay with the XER281HR cam.

I think the above build would be a pretty stout performer in low/mid range, you still retain relatively mild compression - you could possibly get away with running mid grade and would be less likely to see knock in the rare case you get bad fuel.

With the stock 6.0 heads and a cam like that you would probably see a useful powerband of around 1500-6500 rpm? The stall is small enough that it wouldn't be obnoxious, and with a tight stall it won't feel sluggish cruising around town. Both of those lifters are more than enough to take a good long beating along with the pushrods and spring kit. The reason I like the LS6 intake is because it's about as good as you can get without going to the FAST or L92 heads/intake. L92 Heads/intake are too expensive for my budget, as is the fast, not to mention the FAST only shows improvements higher up - high up where we don't need it anyway. Not worth the $1200+ with the TB IMO.

The trans would be more than adequate to take the power with a decent build, even just clutches/steels and a beast sunshell. The 3.42 gear would make for a good stop light to stop light or highway bomber, but wouldn't drive you mad on long cruises and would still pull down respectable mileage.

Headers, our choices are limited but I favor shorties because they allow flexibility in Y pipe/cat-back choices. You also don't have to worry about clearance day to day, or pulling into your "favorite" parking lot with a steep incline. You might leave a good 20rwhp peak power on the table, but 20rwhp at 7k won't mean much if you are looking for it below 3k. With my XER281HR and shorties I still don't have bog/choke issues. With a smallish cam it would be fine.

Lots of little fine detail to fill in, like suspension, brakes, K-member, AC etc. but there is more than plenty of choices and none of them really wrong as long as you aren't rolling around on rubber pieces that are 200,000 miles old right? lol

Honestly, again, I'd really like to see some one do a truly "mild" 6.0 - but with well matched parts. Something that can rev it's pants off from idle, something that can pull from a 1200rpm cruise without hesitation. With the small/mid sized reverse split cams guys are starting to experiment with I think it's more than achievable to get a stockish 6.0 to 440rwhp with some love and care.

Porting/polish would also be one of those details to fill in. Would you port and polish them? Have them sent out? Do it yourself? Being a machinist you could probably do it for free and get what about 40-50rwhp in the process when combined with the other parts?

With my rust bucket combo we are doing about 380+rwhp and about the same number in torque across the board....now If only I had been a bright enough newb to make sure the shop matched the parts up...

That's about all I can brainstorm up, of course I'm far from any sort of knowledgeable guy - I test games for a living

But I am partial to the 6.0, they have a certain sound that an LS1/LS2/LS3 don't have - and they love to grunt down low even with a big cam in them. Anyway, let me know what you think, and I'd be really interested to hear your theories on a good cam to plop in a near stock LQ9 down in the southern states where we enjoy the dense sea level air LOL!

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

thats cool that you got him at the game. i am now going to go with the gmpp hot cam kit with my build. thanks for the info. and to get the whole kit for around 600 is great. sir thanks for all the info. want to go with a 3.42 or 3.73 gear. was also wanting to use the stock or a stall at 2000 rpm's. again thanks.

Atilla the Fun

Hey $750 L98, you weren't supposed to pick the cam. I'm going to go with the rest of what you specified, and show you how to spec a cam for it. First, It's just an LQ9 with too much converter. I know it's too much converter, because your heads, intake manifold, and rear gears all match very well, and none if them is suited for power above 6200. Plus hawks doesn't offer 1.875" headers, and their 1.75" are a great match to your heads and intake manifold. And you didn't specify the elevation, so I'll go for 4500' So, all of this considered, we want an intake closing of 40 degrees after bottom dead center. The intake opening should be about 2 degrees before top dead center. The exhaust opening should be 44 degrees before bottom dead center, and the overlap should be -4 degrees. That puts the exhaust closing at 6 degrees before top dead center. Now let's do the math. 2 plus 180 plus 40 gives a 222 degree at 0.050" intake lobe. 44 plus 180 minus 6 gives a 218 degree at 0.050" exhaust lobe. 222 divided by 2 = 111 minus 2 = 109 degree intake centerline. 218 / 2 = 109 plus 6 = 115 degree exhaust centerline. 109 plus 115 / 2 = 112 lobe separation angle. So, a 222 / 218, 112 + 3 cam and a more reasonable converter.
Now, the reason for closing the intake valve at 40 degrees is to put the HP peak at 6200 rpm with your intake and heads. Putting it any later would just cost you more low end while returning no top end.

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

TTT

Atilla the Fun

that's like bump, right?

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

yes sir it is. i am subscribing and going to do my build exactly as you said to. saving money as we speak. and i believe that i will be pleasantly satisfied. the fact that the sharing of free info such as yours is priceless.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I've seen alot of good things about this cheatr cam from thunder racing. Makes great power with stock idle characteristics. Great DD cam for stock heads and even stock manifolds but works good with headers as well. I've been impressed with the numbers people have put out. This is version 3, the other 2 have been pretty strong as well.

Thunder Racing Custom Camshaft
" CheaTR v.3" - 219/230 .607/.604 117 LSA. Off Idle-6800 RPM Power Band. Broad power range. Works well with stock exhaust manifolds and catalytic converters. Stock like idle in 5.7L or Larger. Minor tuning required on automatic transmission cars. Responds very well to nitrous. This cam works well with "Roots style" SuperChargers. Due to the fast ramp rate of this camshaft the use of 1.8 rockers is not recommended. Comp 925/926 Valve Springs are highly

I would be worried about the valve spring life tho with that .600+ lift. If the lobes arent too agressive it may be ok. Last thing you want on a DD is to change valve springs every 10K miles which is every year. High lift with relatively short duration should mean some aggressive lobes.

Atilla the Fun

Look at the intake closing on that cam. Assuming an intake centerline of 113, which is 4 degrees advanced, the intake closing, corrected for the rocker ratio, is 44.5 degrees after bottom dead center. That's even worse than the stock cam. Oh, it's great for making power at 6300 rpm. It will do that.
Basically, at 1500 rpm, your 5.7L will be about as torquey as a stock 5.3L.
This cam would be great with a turbo. In fact, I suggest you try just that. And this cam is going to like a high stall. It'll pull decent idle vacuum, and the idle won't be very noticeable.
This cam will be liveable with 3.23:1 gears.
I can tell all that and more just by comparing this cam's specs against my past experiences.

Atilla the Fun

TPiS tries to scare people away from the HOT cam, saying it's like an on/off switch. Well, if you're trying to use it with 2.73:1 gears and overdrive, then yes, it does drive poorly. It's a cam that wants a 2200 rpm cruise in a 350, and if you give it that, it's a delight. It's like having a strong LB9 with an entry-level centrifugal supercharger. It's not a world killer, and it has a slight idle, but it's not stressful. If it is, you goofed the tuning. :-)

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

by the time this cam goes in a 3.42 posi will be in place. a 1800 to 2000 stall will also be there. and a built 700r4 on top.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'd love to go turbo with this car as well but not yet Turbo cams seem to be much different from this tho. Much less overlap and more of a single pattern type.
From all the reviews i've seen on ls1tech and other lsx based sites, this cheatr cam drives better than the popular 224 deg cams and makes the same power if not abit more down low. Its got a stock like idle with a fast chop to it, not a lope. Generally gives 40whp over stock cam with headers and even more torque. Seems to have a wide powerband, i dont think it would loose all that much at 1500 rpm. I like alittle more stall than most, 3200 with this setup is what I'd want but even a mild stall should still have a torquey bottom end. I"m not concerned with 1500rpm torque since my motor will rarely see that. Its usually 1800-2000 on mild accelerations from stop lights and at highway cruise speeds, in the same range. Mid range on this cam should be awesome and that on the highway for a merge or quick pass to get to your exit would be key in my eyes.

Any other ideas? Custom grind i was looking at was a 220/224 cam on a 112. .580's lift. I dont think the ramp rates are super aggressive. SHould be very driveable and give a touch of lope for that cammed sound we all want and love

Atilla the Fun

Yeah, with turbo cams, they usually have about the same duration for both intake and exhaust lobes. They say the later exhaust opening helps spool up. I say that's a function of the turbine chosen, and the distance from the exhaust valves to the turbine, and the sizes of the tubing in between.
When I was younger I did builds like what you're doing. I do understand. I have no problem with anyone doing it. I just want people to understand what they're choosing, and all the implications, before they get stuck.
I'm sure you aren't at any risk of getting stuck.
The 220/224-112 is really pushing your luck for either boost or for passing a smog check. It'll have a more serious idle than the cheaTR v3. It'll pull just fine through 6500. It has an earlier IC, but more overlap.
Neither of those cams will be anything like excellent for MPG. If you're running stock compression, then your 220/224-112 will give a better launch with your proposed converter.

Atilla the Fun

This has been bugging me ever since you posted it. In theory, a 3.42 should be fine, but I felt that the 3.73s were marginal. I had to shift down for every little hill or breeze. Then again, with the thin air up here, I'm only making 82% of the torque of being at sea level.
If you live at high elevation, like Denver or some such, then the 3.42s might want a different cam spec.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

This car wont see boost on stock motor. If i decide to retire it from daily status and have time/money to do another boost build, it will have a 370" motor more than likely.

For a daily that will see some strip time i'd love to have alittle more aggressive street setup than a perfect high mpg daily driver. I was gonna try the popular 228/232 on a 111 street sweaper cam thats awesome in 6.0 motors and does well in 5.7's. Local PA GTO boys run that cam with great success and can drive it just fine.

Smog here apparently is a OBDII scan and check for codes. I have all the codes turned off. Do have cats and a medium sounding exhaust (volume wise) so a slight cam will not have issue here

Atilla the Fun

I don't see what logic you're using. Adding 8 psi won't kill your stock pistons, and should put you over 650 crank HP with your CheaTR v3 cam.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

May not kill the stock pistons for sure. My buddy ran 10-12 on his LS6 cammed/head LS1 just fine and was in the mid 10's at 130mph. I just dont want to boost this car for a daily driver. If it gets boost it will be in the 9's again to go with my camaro. I'm actually thinking of making this car my race car/street car and retiring the camaro.
For the daily status i'd rather just have a cammed car and call it a day. Something with a touch of lope but not unbearable. Close to 380-400whp again would be great. I'm pretty much narrowed down to a 220's duration cam based on everyone elses build i've known/seen/read about. Around cheatr size to 224 deg is all i really need even tho i want the MS4 cam which is 237 for nasty chop lobe like my old 383. Loved that car but too noisey for a daily

Atilla the Fun

The MS4 seems like something to try in a 408 stroker LS2. Maybe add a Kenne-Bell on top. That'd have a legit need for 2" primary tubes.