LTX and LSX Putting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.

VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 11-01-2009, 12:01 PM
  #1  
Supreme Member

Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
V8Rumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 39.84N 105.11W
Posts: 1,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Car: '89 Trans Am GTA
Engine: WAS 350 - now L92 (alum. 378/6.2L)
Transmission: WAS 700R4, now a built T56
Axle/Gears: 3.27 9-bolt
VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

Hey all,

To the best of my knowledge, I'm the first (so far the only?) person to do an LS-series swap while attempting to retain the VVT. From everything I'd read, the prevailing impression was that it couldn't be done, since the VVT required the use of the truck accessories, which extend forward beyond the Vette/F-body placement, & placed the alternator above the hood line.

Well, I've pretty much gotten it done. With the possible exception of the P/S pump, my engine is in, & it clears the stock hood line & radiator just fine. This post (on LS1Tech) has most of the info, the complete build thread is right here.

I hope that this helps to "de-mystify" the use of these engines a bit, since the technology is just WAY TOO FREAKIN' COOL to not take full advantage of...!!

While installing the VVT system on a single-cam OHV engine doesn't offer up any adjustability of intake/exhaust overlap timing, it should be noted that simply advancing or retarding the overall valve timing can have significant effects on an engine's powerband, as hot-rodders have known for decades.Typically speaking, advancing the cam timing offers more low-end power, while upper-end performance benefits from retarding camshaft timing.
Although (Billy) Godbold returned to this subject, it quickly became obvious that he had other ideas aching to burst out of his mind. Ideas that can be summed up in the initials VVT-that's variable valve timing to you and me. "The L92 truck motor is incredibly impressive, making 400 SAE corrected horsepower stock and 430 hp with headers," he began. "With one of our cams and the phaser limiter kit, we made 500 hp, and it did not lose power anywhere. It's a great cylinder head, then you add the variable valve timing. We start out by giving the smaller cams lots of advance, up to 10 degrees, then you can retard those about 16 degrees. With the larger cams, piston to valve is tighter on the intake so we go down to 5 degrees advance. These designs run best with a sweep curve of about 12-degree retard, which helps the engine carry at high rpm."

With the cam phaser, you can advance or retard the cam centerline to the position it runs best at each rpm. That's cool, really cool. You can get a 60-plus horsepower gain, with no loss anywhere. You can have control of the cam timing by tweaking a curve in your ECU, just like typical electronic ignition timing. It's like going from points to coil-on-plug.
Attached Thumbnails VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)-dscn3214b.jpg  
Old 11-02-2009, 01:14 AM
  #2  
Junior Member
 
cusz28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kenosha, Wisconsin
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Car: 1983 Z28
Engine: 305
Transmission: 700r4, 2500 stall, shift kit.
Axle/Gears: 85' iroc open diff w/3.08 gears
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

dude... seriously... that is REALLY fricken cool!!! I wonder why nobody else has done this yet. variable cam phasers have been in the chevy aftermarket since the sixties, but it's always been a black art. i guess now since there isn't a distributor anymore it's ALOT easier to do, especially since it's computer controlled. great build, by the way.
Old 11-02-2009, 11:32 AM
  #3  
Supreme Member

iTrader: (1)
 
iansane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Tacoma, Wa
Posts: 3,109
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes on 17 Posts
Car: '91 TA vert
Engine: turboLSx
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.23
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

I can't wait to see that bird out and terrorizing people. I'd love to run a VVT engine later.
Old 11-05-2009, 12:05 AM
  #4  
Junior Member
 
cusz28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kenosha, Wisconsin
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Car: 1983 Z28
Engine: 305
Transmission: 700r4, 2500 stall, shift kit.
Axle/Gears: 85' iroc open diff w/3.08 gears
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

iansane, beautiful car. how'd you do the brakes? did you turn rotor off the stock hub? I love the wheels and the grand sport stripe.
Old 11-05-2009, 09:29 AM
  #5  
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
 
91_5.7_TPI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East Tennesse
Posts: 2,820
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Car: 1991 RS Camaro
Engine: L03 (want LS1)
Transmission: 700R-4 (and T56)
Axle/Gears: 4th Gen 3.23 posi
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

Glad to see you got it in there. I've not been following the thread on Tech, but I'm glad you have it done. Keep us updated.
Old 11-05-2009, 11:27 AM
  #6  
Senior Member

iTrader: (2)
 
Aaron91RS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
Car: RS
Engine: LS1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9" for the ladies
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

I've always been a fan of VVT on most any engine, I'm just to lazy to figure out how to make it work.

Props to you for getting it nearly completed. I know you've been working on it forever.
Old 02-14-2010, 04:28 PM
  #7  
Member
 
silent420wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Berrien Springs, michigan
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Car: 92 Camaro z28
Engine: LQ4 6.0L Vortech w/ aluminum heads
Transmission: 4l60e
Axle/Gears: 3.42s from 99-02 WS6
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

Hi there, got a question. I see your using the truck accessories in your thirdgen with the stock hood. I have a LQ4 truck motor and I wanted to know are those motors the similair in terms of accessories. Also a guy on eBay is selling alternator relocation brackets and was wondering would that solve the problem. Also if if I choose to not use a/c is there a delete bracket or how is that done
Old 02-14-2010, 06:44 PM
  #8  
Senior Member

iTrader: (1)
 
dynodanmanda79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Crestview, FL.
Posts: 533
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Car: 1989 IROC-Z, 1979 Malibu Classic
Engine: LSx 5.3
Transmission: MN12 6-speed, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 3.42
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

IIRC the a/c uses a separate belt, so you won't need an a/c delete bracket
Old 02-14-2010, 07:12 PM
  #9  
Senior Member

iTrader: (1)
 
dynodanmanda79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Crestview, FL.
Posts: 533
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Car: 1989 IROC-Z, 1979 Malibu Classic
Engine: LSx 5.3
Transmission: MN12 6-speed, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 4th gen 3.42
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

IIRC the a/c uses a separate belt, so you won't need an a/c delete bracket
Old 02-14-2010, 07:21 PM
  #10  
Supreme Member

Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
V8Rumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 39.84N 105.11W
Posts: 1,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Car: '89 Trans Am GTA
Engine: WAS 350 - now L92 (alum. 378/6.2L)
Transmission: WAS 700R4, now a built T56
Axle/Gears: 3.27 9-bolt
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

Originally Posted by silent420wolf
Hi there, got a question. I see your using the truck accessories in your thirdgen with the stock hood.
Well, the stock truck accessories won't work with a stock F-body hood, period. What I did was to use an alternator/power steering pump relocation kit from kwikperf.com - that let me keep the truck spacing out from the front of the block, but moves them into Corvette positioning, so that they fit under your hood. It was the best solution I'd found for that issue.

Originally Posted by silent420wolf
I have a LQ4 truck motor and I wanted to know are those motors the similair in terms of accessories. Also a guy on eBay is selling alternator relocation brackets and was wondering would that solve the problem.
AFAIK, all of the "truck motors" are the same as far as accessories go. There could be some minor differences that I'm not aware of, but I haven't heard of any.

Originally Posted by silent420wolf
Also if if I choose to not use a/c is there a delete bracket or how is that done
I'm pretty sure that the A/C is a different sub-system, I think that it's a different belt with just the A/C pulley running off of the crank - so if you don't want to run it, you just don't have those parts.

Hope this helps.
Old 02-15-2010, 12:57 PM
  #11  
Supreme Member

iTrader: (8)
 
whitedevilTA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northern CT
Posts: 2,412
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes on 11 Posts
Car: 1986 Trans am
Engine: 5.3 LM7
Transmission: T56 6 speed
Axle/Gears: Dana 44 w/ 3.55's
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

I find this very interesting. I'm doing a frame up on my 86 and I have a 2005 LM7 5.3 waiting to go in. I'm curious, I didn't even know that the LS series engines had any sort of VVT. What years and engines did it come in? And also what is the benefit to retaining the VVT in terms of horsepower? Is it basically an advantage from a tuning standpoint?

I'd love to know more about this. I was going to put a turbocharger on the motor and just want to see if it's worth it to retain the VVT or not. Great looking build you have there as well!
Old 02-15-2010, 08:54 PM
  #12  
Supreme Member

Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
V8Rumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 39.84N 105.11W
Posts: 1,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Car: '89 Trans Am GTA
Engine: WAS 350 - now L92 (alum. 378/6.2L)
Transmission: WAS 700R4, now a built T56
Axle/Gears: 3.27 9-bolt
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

Hey, thanks for the kind words. I don't know off-hand which years/engines came with VVT, although I wish I did. The principle though is pretty simple -

You know how a 'static' cam can be biased toward the low-end if you install it a few degrees advanced from it's ICL (or set up for top-end power if it's installed a bit retarded)?

Well, VVT lets you do either and/or both of these things depending on the programming in the ECM. (Although the overlap will remain constant, since it's one camshaft with no way to vary the positions of the intake & exhaust from each other.) The net result is that for identical engines (apart from one having VVT & one not having it), the VVT-equipped engine will have a noticeably larger average torque throughout the powerband, as well as better fuel efficiency when you're not at WOT, since the camshaft's position in relation to the crank can be varied by approx. 50 degrees.

There are a number of different resources on the topic, but here's one fairly decent discussion that I found without looking too hard:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...t-not-vvt.html

Also, here's one of my favorite quotes that I've been "showing around":

Originally Posted by V8Rumble
And yes, Mast Motorsports & Comp Cams do make performance cams for the VVT engines, & the potential there is downright NUTS - check out this article for an idea...

"The L92 truck motor is incredibly impressive, making 400 SAE corrected horsepower stock and 430 hp with headers," he began. "With one of our cams and the phaser limiter kit, we made 500 hp, and it did not lose power anywhere. It's a great cylinder head, then you add the variable valve timing."

"With the cam phaser, you can advance or retard the cam centerline to the position it runs best at each rpm. That's cool, really cool. You can get a 60-plus horsepower gain, with no loss anywhere."

-Billy Godbold, Comp Cams
One thing that might make your jaw drop - that SAE-certified 400 horsepower is made by a cam that only has about 200 degrees of duration...
Old 02-15-2010, 09:14 PM
  #13  
Supreme Member

iTrader: (8)
 
whitedevilTA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northern CT
Posts: 2,412
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes on 11 Posts
Car: 1986 Trans am
Engine: 5.3 LM7
Transmission: T56 6 speed
Axle/Gears: Dana 44 w/ 3.55's
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

Thats just awesome!! Technology is ALWAYS improving, and I finally thought that I'd be back in the game with my 5.3.....and now people start swapping VVT engines into thier F bodies. Guess you can just never keep up with how fast technology moves, lol. And I guess my 5.3 does not have the VVT. Best of luck with the build and I will definately be watching your progress to see how it turns out and what kind of power it's capable of!
Old 02-16-2010, 08:51 AM
  #14  
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
fast82z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 751
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Car: 82 Z28
Engine: TT LS
Transmission: 4L80E
Axle/Gears: S60 3.54's
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

VVT is specially helpfull on turbo motors. My cam was installed a tooth off, retarded, one time to make an ICL of 128 degrees. At that point it made crazy power from 4000-7000rpm but could hardly do anything under that, and the turbo wouldn't spool until 4000+rpm. On the other hand, have it advanced to 108 degrees ICL and it spools INSTANTLY, but drops big power just after 6000rpm. So, I'm attempting to make vvt happen on my 1st gen SBC.
Old 02-16-2010, 11:44 PM
  #15  
Supreme Member

Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
V8Rumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 39.84N 105.11W
Posts: 1,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Car: '89 Trans Am GTA
Engine: WAS 350 - now L92 (alum. 378/6.2L)
Transmission: WAS 700R4, now a built T56
Axle/Gears: 3.27 9-bolt
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

VVT on a Gen-I engine??? THAT would be interesting. I suspect that you'd want to duplicate at least a couple things from the L92, namely the DIS & the cam phaser - but that would be a LOT of R&D, & to be honest, I still don't think you'd be able to equal the results from the new engines (no offense intended, but over 15 years of Moore's Law has resulted in a LOT of improvements over the Gen-I SBC design). But if you've got the deep pockets or engineering "chops" that are necessary to make it happen, then I seriously hope that you can do it, because I'd imagine that it would sell...

Anyway, I finally found the specs for the stock L92 cam again:

Stock specs are:
Lift -- .551 intake/.525 exhaust
Duration -- 204/211 @.050
LSA -- 117.
I still have a hard time believing that these engines make that kind of power while using a cam with specs that you'd expect to see in a smog-era straight-six Nova... (OK, the lift numbers aren't too bad...)
Old 02-19-2010, 01:22 PM
  #16  
Supreme Member

 
cam-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In the Garage
Posts: 2,519
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Car: Camaro
Engine: 6.2L
Transmission: T56
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

What about the tensioner? Any luck figuring that out yet?
Old 02-25-2010, 08:45 PM
  #17  
Supreme Member

Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
V8Rumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 39.84N 105.11W
Posts: 1,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Car: '89 Trans Am GTA
Engine: WAS 350 - now L92 (alum. 378/6.2L)
Transmission: WAS 700R4, now a built T56
Axle/Gears: 3.27 9-bolt
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

I haven't worked on that yet, but I've just run into one little note that has me thinking that I might just have a way to work it out. If so, I'll add a post with pictures to this thread...

Thanks for the interest & the kind comments guys.
Old 02-26-2010, 09:08 AM
  #18  
Supreme Member

 
cam-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In the Garage
Posts: 2,519
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Car: Camaro
Engine: 6.2L
Transmission: T56
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

I dug up some info over at tech and this link below is very helpful. This is how Im going to run my accessories I know your going a different route but there might be some stuff here that helps ya.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conver...g-vvt-l92.html
Old 02-26-2010, 05:37 PM
  #19  
Moderator

iTrader: (14)
 
five7kid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Littleton, CO USA
Posts: 43,169
Likes: 0
Received 36 Likes on 34 Posts
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
The '10 Camaro water pump looks very interesting. If it works with truck accessories, that could solve a lot of problems for those starting with truck engines but using a passenger car intake. Buy the water pump, the rest of your truck accessories work.
Old 02-26-2010, 05:53 PM
  #20  
Supreme Member

 
cam-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In the Garage
Posts: 2,519
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Car: Camaro
Engine: 6.2L
Transmission: T56
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

I'd be looking into that route but I have two sets of f-body accessories and no truck accessories so the spacer trick is my route. Im getting mostly worried about tuning this sucker with the t56 being that there is no VVT/manual factory built combo to use as a base tune. Hoping that through tuning I can wipe out the PCM capabilities and turn it into an ECM basically.
Old 02-26-2010, 06:12 PM
  #21  
Supreme Member

Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
V8Rumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 39.84N 105.11W
Posts: 1,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Car: '89 Trans Am GTA
Engine: WAS 350 - now L92 (alum. 378/6.2L)
Transmission: WAS 700R4, now a built T56
Axle/Gears: 3.27 9-bolt
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

Originally Posted by five7kid
The '10 Camaro water pump looks very interesting. If it works with truck accessories, that could solve a lot of problems for those starting with truck engines but using a passenger car intake. Buy the water pump, the rest of your truck accessories work.
Yep, that's exactly what I was planning on trying. From looking at it, it appears that there's a good shot at making it work. (Thanks for giving that up, ya bum!)

Actually though, you'd still have to relocate the alternator, since that would still extend well beyond the hood line...
Old 02-26-2010, 06:37 PM
  #22  
Moderator

iTrader: (14)
 
five7kid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Littleton, CO USA
Posts: 43,169
Likes: 0
Received 36 Likes on 34 Posts
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
Originally Posted by V8Rumble
(Thanks for giving that up, ya bum!)
Oops.

Can you find it in your heart to forgive me???

Originally Posted by V8Rumble
Actually though, you'd still have to relocate the alternator, since that would still extend well beyond the hood line...
Well, I guess I was thinking of my particular case, where hood clearance isn't going to be an issue. . .
Old 09-10-2011, 11:57 AM
  #23  
Supreme Member

 
cam-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In the Garage
Posts: 2,519
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Car: Camaro
Engine: 6.2L
Transmission: T56
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

V8Rumble you still out there? Was searching for pics of the new style Corvette DBW fuel pedal and it looks like you disappeared. Hope all is well whats going on with your car?
Old 03-28-2013, 12:29 PM
  #24  
COTM Editor

iTrader: (11)
 
BADNBLK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: WINDSOR, CO
Posts: 4,098
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 13 Posts
Car: 91 Z28, 87 SC, 90 IROC, 92 RS
Engine: LS1, 305 TPI, L98, NADA
Transmission: T56, 700r4's, and NADA
Axle/Gears: 3.89, 3.42, 3.23, NADA
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

Tim! Where you at man? Just wondering how things are coming. I haven't seen you on the local boards or anything. Hope all is good man.
Old 03-29-2013, 05:32 AM
  #25  
Senior Member
iTrader: (-1)
 
Brando5641's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Siloam Springs AR.
Posts: 809
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Car: 1998 Trans/Am, 1989 RS Camaro
Engine: LS1, LQ9 6.0
Transmission: 4L60E, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 2.73, 2.73
Re: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)

The vvt is bad *** but using truck acc spacing is nothing new. There is all kinds of room in front of mine also. Hell we are using truck acc in a 5.3 s10 swap


Name:  IMG-20120611-00334.jpg
Views: 480
Size:  219.8 KB

Name:  IMG-20120611-00333.jpg
Views: 478
Size:  219.6 KB

Name:  IMG-20120611-00335.jpg
Views: 501
Size:  226.3 KB

Name:  wpweld_zpscd040467.jpg
Views: 490
Size:  83.8 KB

I made a f body alt bracket work with the truck spacing

Last edited by Brando5641; 03-29-2013 at 05:36 AM.
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Frozer!!!
Camaros for Sale
35
01-19-2024 04:55 PM
Terrell351
Engine/Drivetrain/Suspension Parts for Sale
5
06-13-2021 01:13 PM
87iroctheo
Wheels and Tires
5
08-29-2015 09:44 PM
Leggman1
Brakes
6
08-12-2015 08:39 PM
bradleydeanuhl
DFI and ECM
4
08-12-2015 11:48 AM



Quick Reply: VVT engine in a thirdgen (how I made it fit)



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:42 AM.