ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Ugh... Im getting the impression that some people are getting butt hurt...which is silly. This could have been just a normal discussion about it. Also...no one WAS arguing. That was stated several times... Its called DISCUSSING... Jeez.

That said, this thread is becoming loaded with mis-information... Opinions are one thing, but its just taking a turn for the worse. So maybe its time that it dies...

Shouldnt be a debate. Both SBC motors, both decent for an upgrade to the older stuff, both have potential, one is cheaper than the other. Thats it really..

J.

P.S.... Some of you should DEFINETLY spend some time over on LS1tech if you havent already. Not just for LS1 info, but for the wealth of LT1 info as well. A thread that is particularily interesting, is the "500 rwhp recipe basically with only heads/cam". Again...not to sway one way or the other or fuel some sort of debate... Just to inform and educate. Thats what the forums are for....RIGHT??

P.P.S.... My intentions were not to get anyone's feathers ruffled either. So...dont take anything personally

Klortho

I have an LT1 car, and I have an LS1 car. I have as much in my LT1/T56 swap as I paid for an entire 1998 LS1/T56 Trans Am.

LS1s can make 500hp on heads/cam alone (patriot heads are the same price as any aftermarket LT1 head).

There are alot more differences than you think between the LS1 and LT1 Dookie, I know a guy who blew an LT1 sky high with only 8lbs of boost where another guy locally is running 15lbs on a LS1 with cam/heads running in the low 9's in the 1/4.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Yup! Thats exactly why I suggested spending some time over on tech...because I wasnt sure where some were getting their info from

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

and there is a guy running 9's with a turbo L98....all stock lowerend, trapping near 150mph if i recall right

does that mean a L98 is as strong as a LS1? not generally, ls1's are known to be a bit stronger... but strength needs a fair comparison. sure some LT1's have blown with mild setups but so have a few ls1's. But generally LS1's will hold together abit better, and hold abit more hp.

Aaron91RS

iTrader: (2)

You people are really silly. I think most of the arguing is to save face. All the LT1 people spent all this money and now they have to argue to convince themselves they spent their money wisely or got a better dollar per HP ratio then the LS1 guys.
GET OVER IT. Prices come down, technology moves on.
There is really no point to an LT1 swap if you already have a 350TPI.
It's that simple. An LT1 is pretty much an old school SBC but with some stupid changes, opti and reverse cooling.
Other then that, the rotating assembly is the same, the LT1 intake works on a SBC. Heck even the heads have been welded up and put on a SBC just to see what would happen.
So what does your LT1 swap get you? It gets you a better intake then TPI and better flowing heads then TPI. But in reality they aren't great flowing heads, they are just better then TPI. So instead of 245HP you now have 275HP. So now everyone is saying spend another $2000 for a head cam package. Well what the heck was the point of the LT1 swap when you can buy a head, cam, HSR, package for the TPI and do the same thing with less labor being it's a direct bolt on and your not swapping engines, fuel pumps and wiring first?
After your done modding lets face it the only original piece you started with is the block and rotating assembly, which is pretty much the same between the LT1 and TPI, so again you didn't really gain anything swapping to an LT1 if your goal is 350-400HP.
It just blows my mind people can't understand how almost identical the LT1 and TPI is, when most of the parts interchange.

In reality the only two logical choices for 85% of us are this.
If you already have a 350TPI put some AFR's, cam, exhaust and a stealth ram on it.
If you don't have a 350TPI or you insist on wanting the swap, buy a wrecked LS1 car for $3000 and do the swap.
Your one main cost issue with the LS1 is the headers. Hopefully someday there will be competition and the price will come down a lot, but until then yes they are expensive and this is the main cost advantage the LT1 has.
But when it's done you'll have a 350HP LS1 vs a 275HP LT1 stock for stock.
I bet you'll spend $800 getting 75 more HP out of that LT1.
The other parts really aren't big money. Few bucks for motor mounts or make your own.
Notch your cross member, the other things you have to change for an LT1 swap also so they are a null point.
If you still think and LS1 swap is expensive ask Jeremy (GTA91) He probably has no more in his LS1 swap then you LT1 guys have and he runs 10's NA vs your ???
Exactly!

Klortho

You have no idea what you are talking about. Rotating assemblies the same? Last time I looked TPI motors came with cast aluminum pistons and standard rods plus a standard cast crank. The heads have been put on a standard SBC and gained hp, the intake has been put on and gained hp. I'm not making excuses on why I went with an LT instead of an LS because I didn't have the money to get an LS. 5k for the setup vs 2k for my LT setup kinda guided my way. Would I go with an LS if I had it to do again? Probably not, I enjoy my LT setup and anyone not wanting to spend the money on an LS setup I would recommend going with an LT instead because more could be had for the same amount of money spent.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Your post is quite the perfect example of someone who hasnt even fully researched an LT1 swap, and surely hasnt done one.

First thing is that you say the LT1 is only a 30 HP gain stock vs the L98, while the corvette L98 and f body L98 were different and thus got different ratings, its a well known fact that the F body engines are the same heads, camshaft etc, its rated for 300 HP go figure. So thats a 55 HP gain off the top.

No, LT1 stock heads dont flow amazing numbers stock, however they do compare to half the decent heads that people would typically buy in a reasonable price range that they would add to their L98

So now that you've stated that its set in stone its best to dump a ton of money into an L98 if you have one. Lets see...

Your BS about "just throw some heads and a stealthram etc on an L98 blah blah blah"

Stealthram, install items, etc... $600 ?

Set of heads that without port work are probably going to flow the same as LT1 stock heads $1000

misc install items, etc, say 400, $2000 to get your L98 in a similar range to an LT1

Then you've still got a transmission thats weak, or still automatic and a lot want manual, add a T56 swap that typically runs $1600 easily.

Just on the difference of buying a T56 swap for your L98 compared to getting a full LT1/T56 pullout, its about a $500-700 difference to get the better engine.

For the $500-700, plus the few minor changes to the swap you gain
1. $2000 heads / intake differences that for some god awful reason you suggest getting heads and a stealthram for.

2. A MUCH better efi computer, with the ability to cheaply get sofware for easy and fast tuning as opposed to burning and changing proms.

3. A lighter more compact serpentine setup, there is only one bracket used on the LT1 cutting weight, add to this the thirdgen stock alternator is what 105A ? The lower F body LT1 alternator is 124A and plenty have the 140A.
Lets not forget the factory aluminum water pump cutting weight further.

4. A much much easier to work on package in the end, its more compact than a TPI intake setup, its a LOT easier to work on in the car than an L98, it performs much better and gets better fuel mileage. Easier cam swaps (no water in the intake and its really easy and fast to remove).

That is just going off the typical prices of buying the LT1, typical price of just an LS1 pullout is still $4000, yes deals are out there and you can fight to piece together some ultra budget setup, but results are not typical, its a bunch of bs, yes you might have got your LS1 swap done for less than this other guys LT1, at the end of the day realistically until you get to the 440 RWHP NA mark, the LT1 is going to cost less.


Nobody around here is trying to save face, the ones who have done the LT1 swap more than likely have actually done the research and made an educated decision based on cost and horsepower goals, it really looks more like the LS1 guys in here whining to save face trying to comfort themselves that the extra $3000 involved in the swap is somehow worth the few extra horsepower.

Most of the parts between an LT1 and L98 interchange huh ?
Sure if by most you mean the crank rods and pistons, WOW thats a LOT of stuff isnt it ?

Aaron91RS

iTrader: (2)

Different years has different ratings. Anyone that thinks their early LT1 that's running a 14.0 has 300HP is wrong.

Yes and no.
I can get 300HP out of a TPI like setup(bigger runners base) on ported l98 heads and an lt4 hotcam or something similiar.
I hate to sound repetitive but that's what GTA91 did first.
With a nice set of heads, a cam and the stock TPI you can also get 300HP.
Either of those options is $1500 or less.
With nice set of heads, a cam and a HSR you will be making more HP then an LT1. So there you go, like you said $2000 and your equal to an LT1(in reality faster with those mods but whatever)
So at this point you have to do your entire LT1 swap for $2000 which lets for arguments sake you can do.
Now you've spent all that time and gotten to the same point the guy who bolted heads on his l98 got. Problem is he did his stuff in a weekend and you spent 2 months (or for some on this board a LOT longer)

the 700r4 and 4l60 is the same thing other then the way they are controlled.
One is not stronger then the other and the 700r4 is cheaper to rebuild if we want to get picky. So there is no point in discussing transmission as it's a draw


I and a lot on this board seem to have no problems burning chips for a couple hundred dollars in initial cost. Pretty sure any LT1 programmer with the same functionality is at least twice that.

I only run the drivers side bracket on my SBC if you really want to argue about 4lbs of weight. I have a 140amp alternator on mine also. Ironically aluminium water pumps are also made for SBC's, so all of the above is a null point.


BS, the last wrecked DRIVEABLE ls1/t56 in my area sold on ebay for $3500. I can buy a whole running non-body damaged LS1 car for $5K on ls1tech.
Wrecked LS1 cars can be had for 2500-3K, do a search on ls1tech.


I don't have an LS1. I don't have an LT1. I don't even have a TPI, so I think I am WAY more UNBIAS then most on here when it comes to this argument.

Yeah, crank, rods, pistons, cam, intake are pretty direct bolt ons.
That only leaves the heads which have been done, but there's no point since it costs money to weld them.
Thats pretty much every major piece of a SBC so yeah MOST.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Eh.. I had a big long post typed up, but I was starting to come off as arrogant. So Im going to delete it and refrain from sayin all that.

All Ill say is... Im glad I paid what I paid. And I dont need comfort myself for spending xxx.xx over what an LT1 set up woudl have cost. Im glad I did what I did, had the money to do it, and ended up with one BAD car in the end.

If you want an LT1 fine. If you want an LS1 fine. Want to be ignorant and tell people they are whining or whatever...fine. Stinks that it came down to that in the thread but whatever.

haha I think its time to just this one go..atleast for me. Have fun gents!

J.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i can see this arguement getting thick quick

most of it is similar, but the intake is no where NEAR a direct bolt on. TRUST me cuz i've done the conversion. It took awhile to modify distributor hole, shave the excess metal off the manifold that is in the way of the bolt holes that you have to redrill....etc. its not close to being a bolt on...but its doable with time and few tools

This is far from the norm.... most dropout ls1/t56 combos are near 4000 for low miles and 3000 for high mileage units. Its rare to find something THAT cheap. Cheapest donor car i've seen was probly 6-7 grand, and i see alot since my local lsx specialty shop/junkyard does just that...they buy and sell fbody parts/cars and donor cars. I've seen the prices... they arent normally that cheap as you say.

It aint bad but there are a few limitations to the MAF systems we use compared to LT1 systems. they have larger MAF's and use MAP sensor as well. So many aftermarket tuners available for LT1's. Mail order chips are sooo accurate for LT1 builds, unlike our cars. There are just soo many more combinations that are run with LT1 cars that it makes it easy to get a tune for it since most mail order places have done similar combos. I've seen mail order tunes within 5-10whp of a dyno tune... thats pretty good for a mail order


LT1 reverse cooling is far more efficient than standard small blocks. you can get away with more compression.

You talk about bolt ons for a L98 being near equal to an LT1. Let me put it to you this way. My HSR bolt on L98 put down 254whp. Ran 12.95 at 103.8mph with 2800 stall, 3.42 gears on slicks/skinnies in the COLD air and 3460 lbs raceweight. My buddies exhaust only/tuned LT1....thats headers/catback/mail order tune with 3.42 gears, stock auto trans, stock converter on street tires! and much heavier than my car was doing 12.96 at almost 107mph. Couple other LT1 guys with T56's doing mid 12's with drag radials, 3.73 gears with 1.6 rockers on their exhaust/tune LT1's

Kid with stock auto LT1 with slp loudmouth catback and k/n air filter put down 264 whp. LT1 cam aint any bigger than L98 with 1.6 rockers which mine had

LT1's are alot stronger than you think...its the car that is heavy that makes them seem weaker when they only run high 13.s to 14.0

You can throw on heads/cam/intake on a L98 and still wont make as much power as a Lt1 with cam only in some cases..

Unless you have a flat top piston L98, you will never get the compression you need with aluminum heads. Lt1's are lucky with 58cc heads and near 10.5 to 1 compression Even the flat top L98s will use heads with 64 ccs unless you mill them down which costs money and you might not even get them below 61 cc's or so without having intake manifold fitment issues from the milling. Flat top L98 is 7cc, so with stock pistons being in the hole .025", and running a THIN .015-.028" gasket, you will still only get near 10 to 1. Most cases being much less than that.

I've seen far many cam only LT1's run better than most ppl's cam/heads/intake L98's on this board



ANYWAY, i've seen LT1's with trans go for 1500-2500 dependin on what you get. if you get a motor only and reuse your stock 700r4, you can get a good LT1 for 1000 bucks and have great potential. Spend another 600 for cam/tune and you got 340whp and capable of running bottom 12's with right gears/converter

For most ppl that is fine enough. You dont need a 3500 dollar LS1/4L60E and have to mess with swap components and headers that are expensive and still dont fit well

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Go figure the corvette rating stayed the same throughout the years, the F body changed the rating not due to the year but when they changed the catalytic converters. Dont know of anyone with a thirdgen swap retaining the exhaust manifolds, let alone catalytic converters. If you think the LT1's from any year are any lower in HP due to the year, you are the one who is wrong.

For 2000 ? Heck if *I* wanted to i can do the swap for $1200 and in a day. but hey you go right ahead thinking the one or two guys that had some bad luck, or went on a snowball build are the only way to go.

Let alone that no i wont have spent all that to get to the guy who bolted heads to his L98, because i'll have bought a V6 RS, and swapped in the LT1, which i'd be willing to bet a decent sum of money that i can swap an LT1 in a 90-92 camaro faster than you can install heads and a cam in an L98 thirdgen.

Wow the 700R4 and 4L60E are pretty much the same ? You dont say. The weaker statement since you couldnt figure it out was in reference to the T5, being that some of us around here run manual transmissions.

Playing games and trying to piece together a decent drivetrain might be fun for you, but some of us would rather bolt in an engine / transmission, for a reasonable price and go.

$90 for the cable, $90 for the software, $180 isnt even $200, let alone a "couple hundred"


I dont have either in my current car so i suppose im unbias too right ?
Though i guess i have done the swap about a half dozen times, so what do i know.

Yeah it leaves the block, heads, intake manifold, computer and wiring, water pump, and accessories, looks like the list of different is longer than the list of same.

DrummerDad

Im going LT1 for price and convenience. Its alot cheaper, and easier.

And Im not going LS1 because of all the nutswingers. Im tired of all the LS1 guys telling me I should just get an LSx.

Dollar for dollar, an LT1 swap wins. Until you start spending stupid money. LSxs do have more overall potential.

Ive got less than $2k in mine, and I could make it run for about $500 more, and I got taken on the motor (thats another story). Thats ECM/harness, motor, and tranny(4L60E)/converter. And Im swapping from an L03, which requires a fuel pump swap.

Ive been considering a swap for about 3 years. I decided on the LT1. Its not what everyone wants, or what everyone should do. But neither is an LS1 swap. Do your homework, and consider ALL the options. Make the decision that best suits what you need.

92rs85berlintta

iTrader: (1)

I cant believe the mis information in this thread, I can clearly tell who has experience here.

Heres some bullet points to the swap.

Lt1 is a drop in reliable 275+ish horsepower.
Ls1 is not a drop in swap, but is reliable 315+ish horsepower.
Both can be emissions legal fairly easy.
Lt1 cost 1/3 of what a ls1 cost then you still need additional items for the lsx.
Lt1 is a great upgrade from a Tpi motor since everything about it was stronger,lighter, flowed better and had more potential in its stock platform.
Ls1 is lighter.

No matter what anyone says the lt1 is better and cheaper for the average Joe on a budget. Its a fact. If your looking for a drop in swap and want to save money the lt1 is the way to go. If you looking for a highly modded car and are willing to pay for it then get a ls1.
The ls1 is a superior engine by design and we all know this, its just a matter of cost. Penny for penny the lt1 is the best drop in horsepower and reliability. You can get them for as little as $400 now days if you look hard enough.

I went with a lt1 because its a proven fast, reliable motor. There are lt1s out there running 12's with cam only swaps. For the amount of money I had into my gen 1 carbed 350 motor, I built an lt1 with more hp, emissions, fuel injection and reliability. not to mention way better gas mileage compared the the carb. I was on a budget and squeezed out some great horsepower for what i paid and am very happy. My next swap will be a lq9 twin turbo.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

more like 290-300 hp with the LT1 and 340hp with the LS1

92rs85berlintta

iTrader: (1)

Of course, they are both very underrated motors. Just going by what GM claimed back in the day.

ssean92

iTrader: (10)

anyone that has done the research on these engine will see that the lt is alot cheaper to start with. I did my first swap for around 2500 with t56. I got it to low 13's @ 105 just with bolt-on's and with shortie headers. Should have been 12's with the right person driving it. now I have spent alot more then that for a 400 plus lt1 383 but wouldn't change to ls for anything. The cost just to get it in the car is so much more. Well any way I don't need to get people to understand why I do what I do, I do it because it is what I wanted to do and was alot of info on how to do it. Oh yeah I also did the dash and interior stuff. I love how I have changed up my car to my taste and it reflects how I am, not anyone else. I enjoy working on my Junk and that is all that matters. The end this The Lt1 is cheaper then he ls1, pure and simple.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I believe it is clear to any neutral observer that the majority of comments are justification for what the commenter did himself. Meaning, there is very little objective information in the responses. Some, but very little.

I believe it is also clear that this thread is no longer serving any useful purpose. So, read as you please, have your salt shaker handy, but it's time for Mr.