tchernobog

Alright, I'm a little confused here. I have a '91 Z/28. Completely original, has 5.7 TPI badges, but has an LB9 RPO code.

Is there any way to find out whether my car has a 350 or a 305? Would it show up on the VIN?

edit - Just checked the VIN...it says it's a 5.0...So...did my car get badged with 5.7 TPI badges, but it has a 305? Anyway to discern which engine it is by looking at the engine itself?

super double edit - well, I cleaned and cleaned the back of the block haha, it's a 5.0. So...I got defrauded by a dealership. Car was advertised as a 350, badged as a 350, but it's a 305.

tchernobog

I tried checking the numbers on the back of the block, but even scrubbing them with a rag and steel wool, the only numbers I could make out were 0306.

Anywhere else I can check?

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

How long ago did you buy the car? Take it back to the dealership and demand they do something about you being defrauded.

DJP87Z28

Previous owner or dealer rebadged it to 5.7 engine to increase the resale value. Very common for someone buying and not realizing it his mistake by not checking the VIN before the sale. All you are going to get is tough sh-t it is not my (sellers) mistake.

tchernobog

Bought it exactly a week ago from a very well respected sports car dealership.

Someone is getting called, and something is going to be done about me paying for something I didn't get.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

Let us know how that goes. I'm guessing they'll play victim too, and blame the person who sold it to them.

FUNIROC

iTrader: (4)

Unless you have any paperwork showing that they sold you a car with a 350 in it then you probably won't get very far. It may also be listed on the Title for the car what engine it has(or should have).

Also if you singed anything that said sold as is no warranty you may be out of luck they can use that as on out on most cases.

I hope you come out on top with this. I hate to see people get worked over by dishonest people.

tchernobog

I have the ad that says it's a 350 and the window sticker that says it's a 350.

And the 'As-Is; No warranty' sheet only has defects on it. That was the only contract I signed when I bought it, the one saying I would pay for any repairs.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

There's always the chance that at some point in the past, someone dropped a 350 and wanted to clone a Z28, so they got the badges and what not and did them themselves before selling it to the dealership.

There are numbers on the block that will identify it for sure. But that requires you to either check back by where it hooks into the tranny or the number up in front of the passenger head by the water pump. That's really the only way to know for sure without dyno-ing it and seeing a discrepency between what the hp should be and what it is.

tchernobog

I edited the original post last night. I already checked the block, it's a 5.0

safemode

iTrader: (1)

It's pretty hard to believe then that the dealership thought it was a 350. As the vin would be a dead giveaway, at least to get them to investigate the block. I think you could cause some serious trouble for this dealership if you get a lawyer involved. If they're doing that to you and it's as obvious as that, one can only imagine what they're doing to other people. And I guarantee if you just go to them and get your money back, they'll be right back on the lot selling the same thing to the next guy.

scottmoyer

Dealerships don't take anybodys word when it comes to what a car is. They run the VIN and they know what is in the car. I have seen dealerships get a 4 cylinder car that was made to look like a V8 and they tried to sell it as a V8 even though they did the trade and would only give 4 cylinder money for the car. They hope for the unsuspecting buyer. If he has paperwork that says 350, then they are responsible. If the previous owner said he replaced the engine, they would require proof and they would verify it first before they gave up additional money for it. The dealer knows what the car is especially if they deal with sports cars and the like as their business. He was took!

safemode

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunately though, most people will probably just approach the dealership personally and all the dealership has to do is give back the money and find another guy to cheat. This is the type of dealership that needs to be sued, because nobody is gonna believe that this is the first time they've tried pulling this.

tchernobog

Update on the situation.

Called them yesterday and they told me they'd have to look into it. Heard back today, guy told me their records indicate it was a 305. Which means they knew the whole time.

Joke's on them, I told them before we started that I was recording the conversation.

Bigger joke on them, my Aunt used to be on the city council in Cleveland, and now works for the court system, and is very friendly with a lot of judges/lawyers. She's also a Camaro collector (has an awesome collection, too. '69 z/28, '71 split bumper, '76 z/28, '79 z/28 and '00 SS) so she's taking this rather personally.

I was so enraged when I learned that they knew the whole time I hung up, so I'm calling tomorrow and talking to either the sales manager or the owner to find out how they're going to make it right.

Worst case scenario, I have a lot of lawyers/judges who, according to my aunt, would be more than happy to help. If it comes down to that, I think a RamJet 350 is in order.

okfoz

It is not exactly Bait & Switch , but if you start climing "Bait & Switch" then they may scramble...

John

tchernobog

It's fraud. Period. It fits the NC statute definition of fraud to a T.

If they don't want to play nice, small claims will happen.

Kevin84Z28

iTrader: (3)

It's never going to be seen as fraud. First, no one is going to investigate it. Second, How are you going to show that the dealer intended to defraud the buyer? It's not that simple. You would have to get a statement from a sales person, or secretary, mechanic or someone in the business to admit that they knew it was a 305 but deceided to sell it as a 350 for a better sale. The business, legally could simply state that yes, althought the vin and documentation showed that it was a 305, a simple clerical error transposed the "0" and "5" or fall back on the assumption that it was sold/traded to them as a 350 and the badging on the car could back that up.

What you should do is take the car with you and go speak with the management. Find out how they would like to resolve this. They may give you a full refund, a partial refund or maybe a free 3 year warranty. Give them the benefit of the doubt. You can always step it up but even if you have a case for a lawsuit you would have to allow them to resolve the situation before you can file a claim.

tchernobog

Except all the conversations and advertisments and window stickers say 5.7. It's done in liters, not cubic inches.

There is no way to screw up 5.0 and 5.7, unless you're typing with epilepsy. I have him recorded stating they knew it was a 5.0 liter.

I'm just typing out 350 and 305 for...well, I don't know why, habit I guess.

Also, NC statute says it's the responsibility of the SELLER to present the facts about what's being sold. Their ignorance, which they told me they knew anyways so that's moot, wouldn't even matter.

Kevin84Z28

iTrader: (3)

I agree. However, you'll need to seek civil satisfaction from them. Some members have used the word "fraud." So far I haven't heard how you would prove that they specifically intended to defraud you. I think you have a strong civil case if you're not able to get this resolved with them. Any idea on how you're going to go about that?

tchernobog

I don't know how much more intentional it can get than having records saying it's a 305/5.0 and advertising it/badging it as a 5.7 and selling it as a 5.7 when it's not...

Kevin84Z28

iTrader: (3)

what are you going to do?

tchernobog

Call them tomorrow, talk to the sales manager, tell them there are a few options. One option is they can pay to have a 350 installed. One option is to give me the fair market difference in price.

Final option is court. I'm not going to say that though, I'll only bring up going to court if they refuse the other options. If it ends up going to court, I have lawyers who will help me, though it would just be small claims court, so it wouldn't be necessary. I'd really rather not go to court, as it would be a long, drawn out process, but I'm going to do what I have to do.

Plus, this place has a very good reputation. So good, in fact, that they have their own section in the nascar hall of fame strip-mall type of complex, to showcase their classic cars. Now, I'm not a nascar fan, but I live in the south. Having a spot to showcase your stuff at that location is a huge deal. If it ends up going to court, this would destroy their reputation.

Kevin84Z28

iTrader: (3)

Sounds like a good plan. One thing I might do different is to ask them how they want to resolve it before I told them how I wanted it resolved. They may have been thinking about something that you haven't considered. Good Luck.

tchernobog

Oh, definitely. I'm going to ask how they want to pursue it first, because, despite this, I had a good experience buying the car, sales staff was really nice, and, despite not getting the engine I was told, the car is in absolutely amazing condition. I, personally, have never seen a third gen in shape as good as this one, and I live in the south haha. Dash has no cracking, paint is immaculate, interior is spotless. The leather has zero, literally, cracking on it. No interior rattles at all. None. It looks like it's been covered since '91.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

If they dont want to install a 350 in it, and have it work with the fuel injection, then they should also pay to have the wrong badges removed in addition to giving you the difference in price. I bet you dont even see a paint shade difference.

FUNIROC

iTrader: (4)

First off I am on you side, they need to work with you.

Just don't go expecting the world on this. I would ask them your options first. Then think it through before you say or do anything.

I would think they would give you more money off towards the purchase of the car. Or they would take the car back and issue a full refund.

The cost difference between a 5.0 and 5.7 would be $500 or less.

No way you're going to get them to install a 5.7/350 that is a far reach, don't even go down that road.

Unless you can prove they installed the 5.7 badges with the intent to defraud anyone, then they would not have to remove the badges. I would at least ask them to swap out the badges.

Take someone with you when you go. Make sure you document (Get it in writing)everything they say and get the names, only talk to the manager. They can always say that the sales person does not have the authority to make any decision and what the sales person told you was wrong.

tchernobog

Market difference for my area between a 305/350 is almost $1k. Ranges from 800-1200, depending on which source you use. I used edmunds, internetautoguide, KBB, NADA and black book.

I'm not expecting them to install a 350. But if they **** me over, and it goes to court, they will be.

And even if they didn't install the badges, they still KNEW it was a 305 and sold it as a 350. How much more intentional can it get? I have them recorded (and I did tell them I was recording the conversation) as saying they have RECORDS, their documentation from when they purchased the car as a trade in, proving it's a 305.

tchernobog

Well.

Looks like I'm going to small claims court. Called them today, asked them how they wanted to make it right, they said, verbatim, they didn't want to, because the car isn't worth that much.

I told them, in a very calm, collected voice, 'That's fine, I'm glad you feel the cost of making this right is greater than your reputation, expect a certified letter soon, thank you.'

safemode

iTrader: (1)

Sounds good. You have evidence that they knew it was not what they sold you, you have the bill of sales. It doesn't get much more obvious than that without having a video of the guys re-badging the thing in their garage and high fiving eachother after you leave with the car.

Now they'll end up paying the difference + court costs.

tchernobog

That, and their reputation will be completely ruined.

I'm going to screw them, hard. I've got a call in to the owner of the place, if he tells me the same thing as the sales manager, my next call is going to be to a few of the local news agencies who do those investigative reporting things on local businesses. Actually, I don't even need to call. The editor for those segments lives, conveniently enough, 6 houses down from me, and I used to mow his lawn when I was in high school.

DJP87Z28

I agree that you may have got screwed. But again you DID NOT do your homework about the engine type before you bought the car. Just my opinion, but you are Pi--ing against the wind. Most people in the system are going to say what difference does it make.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

Whether or not you buy the car knowing it's not a 350 but really a 305, the fact that they sold a 305 saying it was a 350 is the crime, that's false advertising. The fact that they knew this and as far as they knew, he did not know this, and charged more for the product than it otherwise would have been sold for, is fraud and is the crime.

The crime exists, whether or not he knew what he was being sold was not what they said it was. The act of trying to do it is enough even.

edit: You can't just try to hawk something and then when you're caught, go "no harm no foul". That's not how the laws are written when it comes to fraud.

tchernobog

exactly.

Should I have done more research on it? Yea. Does that change the fact that they knowingly sold a 305 as a 350? Not at all.

1LOMARO

You are definitely gonna get the run around. The guys at Morrison Motor company are not idiots by any means. You saw the lot.... alot of high end muscle everywhere you look. They probably took the car in on trade and gave that poor guy have of what you paid for trade in value, and used the 305 as there bargaining chip. with that being said..... pull the numbers off the block and see if by chance somebody swapped in a 350. That could be the reasoning for the badging. Hope things work out for you.

DJP87Z28

99 44/100 % of the time most sellers will try to pass off a 305 TPI as a 350 TPI because of NO visible differences. And as I said before this guy is Pi--ing against the wind with the Dealer. No Dealer is going to install expensive badges to try to upgrade a car (my opinion the previous owner did it). When buying any used car do your homework before signing on the dotted line.

tchernobog

Ok. What, exactly, do you not understand about me having proof they knew it was a 305 and still saying it was a 350?

Seriously, I'd like you to explain to me what you don't get.

It doesn't matter how much homework I did on it, THAT IS STILL FRAUD. You know who agrees with me? The attorney general's office. Because they got a call yesterday. So does the BBB. And the lawyer who sent a certified letter of demands.

okfoz

I remember there being a case where someone bought a car that ended up being the wrong year. Apparently the title & everything stated it as being one year but it ended up being another, When they renewed the Title it came up as another year. IIRC the dealer had to either take the car back, or they paid them the difference, because one year was more desireable than the other for some reason.

It was some strange car like a 1967 Volvo or something...

John

okfoz

I would like to point out that tchernobog was taken advantage of. to call him names due to the fact that he did not know, is inapproprate. I hope that with episodes like this that we can reduce the chance of this happening again. THUS why I have left the thread open.

Unfortunately THis is NOT uncommon,

John

scottmoyer

I don't see this going anywhere good from here.