1989 IROC 344 original miles
#1051
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
Huh..... dead silence.
I don't know why but I suddenly feel so..... so, POWERFUL!
I don't know why but I suddenly feel so..... so, POWERFUL!
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#1053
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
You must have been the icing on the cake. Scott has asked, told or whatever Phil to stop, or be "done here" since post 501... So apparently Phil finally listened... and look what happened... Crickets.
#1054
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
Holy cow! I haven't been paying attention since Saturday morning. I am not reading through all this stuff. I don't see any new pictures. Has anyone gotten served their papers?
#1055
Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
Sorry guys, I'm changing sides. I'm team Phil!
Request for the Barret Jackson lawyers reviewing this thread with a fine toothed comb right now:
Drew says 1LE's are overhyped and benefit from myths that drives the prices up. It hurts my feelings. Can you make him stop? Thanks.
Request for the Barret Jackson lawyers reviewing this thread with a fine toothed comb right now:
Drew says 1LE's are overhyped and benefit from myths that drives the prices up. It hurts my feelings. Can you make him stop? Thanks.
![lmao](https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/images/smilies/lmao.gif)
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
Sorry guys, I'm changing sides. I'm team Phil!
Request for the Barret Jackson lawyers reviewing this thread with a fine toothed comb right now:
Drew says 1LE's are overhyped and benefit from myths that drives the prices up. It hurts my feelings. Can you make him stop? Thanks.![lmao](https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/images/smilies/lmao.gif)
Request for the Barret Jackson lawyers reviewing this thread with a fine toothed comb right now:
Drew says 1LE's are overhyped and benefit from myths that drives the prices up. It hurts my feelings. Can you make him stop? Thanks.
![lmao](https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/images/smilies/lmao.gif)
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
It's just too bad we couldn't have spent time in this thread checking out and documenting a low mile IROC in detailed picture, rather than the insanity it turned into.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
Amen... It would have been way more straight forward to actually get good pictures of the spots in question if the pictures were not of the car...
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
The car is a beautiful thirdgen, but I personally disagree with the "still worth every penny" assessment if the car had paintwork. The whole point of buying a 30 year old survivor with 344 miles is to relive that "new car" experience. This isn't one you buy to roadtrip across America or autocross. This is the car you park in your garage as a full size diecast. It's one you look at and admire as it brings your mind back to 1989, fooling you into thinking your garage is actually a dealer's showroom floor with a brand new IROC on display as "the heartbeat of America" plays softly in the back of your head. The entire value proposition of the car is tied to its originality and condition. The car better be immaculate.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
The car is a beautiful thirdgen, but I personally disagree with the "still worth every penny" assessment if the car had paintwork. The whole point of buying a 30 year old survivor with 344 miles is to relive that "new car" experience. This isn't one you buy to roadtrip across America or autocross. This is the car you park in your garage as a full size diecast. It's one you look at and admire as it brings your mind back to 1989, fooling you into thinking your garage is actually a dealer's showroom floor with a brand new IROC on display as "the heartbeat of America" plays softly in the back of your head. The entire value proposition of the car is tied to its originality and condition. The car better be immaculate.
I agree. What I wish this thread became one with dozens of reference pictures of a low mileage IROC, discussions of it's history and the story of it's original owner, that sort of thing.
Last edited by chazman; 02-01-2019 at 07:53 PM.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
Agreed.....but you gotta admit, it's nice this has thread has finally died down....
#1064
Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I hesitate to even respond to this, because I too am glad this crap parade is over, but I felt it important to point this out.
This thread became about the OP, not the car. The fact that activity fell completely off after he stopped posting is a testament to that.
My final point to you Charlie, is that at this point I don't really trust or have any faith in what the car was or wasn't. I don't think this community is missing anything by not being able to enjoy this car, because there is strong evidence that nothing is what it seemed. Strange behavior and incriminating pictures just turned me off completely.
This thread became about the OP, not the car. The fact that activity fell completely off after he stopped posting is a testament to that.
My final point to you Charlie, is that at this point I don't really trust or have any faith in what the car was or wasn't. I don't think this community is missing anything by not being able to enjoy this car, because there is strong evidence that nothing is what it seemed. Strange behavior and incriminating pictures just turned me off completely.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
Yeah Jeremy, it was never about the car. It was mostly about the money. As a consequence, the car will probably go dark for years now, instead of being shared with the community.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
The car is a beautiful thirdgen, but I personally disagree with the "still worth every penny" assessment if the car had paintwork. The whole point of buying a 30 year old survivor with 344 miles is to relive that "new car" experience. This isn't one you buy to roadtrip across America or autocross. This is the car you park in your garage as a full size diecast. It's one you look at and admire as it brings your mind back to 1989, fooling you into thinking your garage is actually a dealer's showroom floor with a brand new IROC on display as "the heartbeat of America" plays softly in the back of your head. The entire value proposition of the car is tied to its originality and condition. The car better be immaculate.
more.
..anyhow, I think the price it sold for was pretty fair for what it was. If it was touched up at the dealership it would be the same brand new car that was delivered in 1989.
I’d argue if it was perfectly flawless with 344 Miles, it could have sold for more.. So worth every penny at $34,500.
I can see how the alleged overspray could be disappointing for some, but in car pricing paintwork doesn’t do that much to the actual market value. Individually it would matter more. I think there is enough rare about this car to keep its value fairly high.
I’m not even in the market for a full sized die-cast car showroom toy anyway though..
You know Vanguard would detail the hell out of it, make a video and put it up for $45,995... The guy would never stop saying “brand spankin’ new” on that car..
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
That exhaust barely had emissions pumped through it.. It’s too bad..
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
The car is a beautiful thirdgen, but I personally disagree with the "still worth every penny" assessment if the car had paintwork. The whole point of buying a 30 year old survivor with 344 miles is to relive that "new car" experience. This isn't one you buy to roadtrip across America or autocross. This is the car you park in your garage as a full size diecast. It's one you look at and admire as it brings your mind back to 1989, fooling you into thinking your garage is actually a dealer's showroom floor with a brand new IROC on display as "the heartbeat of America" plays softly in the back of your head. The entire value proposition of the car is tied to its originality and condition. The car better be immaculate.
I guess to elaborate I think if anyone saw the car in person and how brand new the interior, engine compartment, trim, etc.. It would be easy to appreciate. Would have liked to see the underside too.. I’m guessing based on limited facts and also hearing from some that saw the car in person and said it was much nicer than other Thirdgens that sold for
more.
..anyhow, I think the price it sold for was pretty fair for what it was. If it was touched up at the dealership it would be the same brand new car that was delivered in 1989.
I’d argue if it was perfectly flawless with 344 Miles, it could have sold for more.. So worth every penny at $34,500.
I can see how the alleged overspray could be disappointing for some, but in car pricing paintwork doesn’t do that much to the actual market value. Individually it would matter more. I think there is enough rare about this car to keep its value fairly high.
I’m not even in the market for a full sized die-cast car showroom toy anyway though..
You know Vanguard would detail the hell out of it, make a video and put it up for $45,995... The guy would never stop saying “brand spankin’ new” on that car..
IMO, paint work on a car of this pedigree and price point makes a HUGE difference.....I agree with Kurt
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I totally understand why certain people would pay high dollar for it and some wouldn’t touch it at all..
I do say you lose a portion of the market unless they can explain the photos and prove otherwise, but it will sell in the market for a pretty penny.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I do actually agree with you.. I think individually it makes a huge difference but I’d bet this car will also sell for more than this in the future.
I totally understand why certain people would pay high dollar for it and some wouldn’t touch it at all..
I do say you lose a portion of the market unless they can explain the photos and prove otherwise, but it will sell in the market for a pretty penny.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I agree to an extent......I mean, I think it'd hurt it some, but i dont think it would kill it by any means. I think the car in the thread sold very well. Would I expect a PERFECT 344 mile car to bring more than $34k? If they were side by side .....of course. But some collector will always be willing to fork out big money for a super low mile car, regardless, I think. Especially since there are some people that wouldn't even notice stuff like the previous pictures.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I think if we could see the underside we could have a better idea of the miles..
If I had stumbled upon the car you guys would have gotten a lot of detailed photos and underside shots if nothing more than for documentation..
I agree I don’t know for a fact anything about the car. I guess there’s not even great interior shots showing closeups of unused seats, buttons, switches, etc.. I wasn’t that psyched about any of the pictures.. They weren’t particularly flattering and could hide things..
I’m “pretty” sure it’s not a 100,344 mile car imo.. You’d see inspections, etc on the CarFax I think.. but who really knows..
If I had stumbled upon the car you guys would have gotten a lot of detailed photos and underside shots if nothing more than for documentation..
I agree I don’t know for a fact anything about the car. I guess there’s not even great interior shots showing closeups of unused seats, buttons, switches, etc.. I wasn’t that psyched about any of the pictures.. They weren’t particularly flattering and could hide things..
I’m “pretty” sure it’s not a 100,344 mile car imo.. You’d see inspections, etc on the CarFax I think.. but who really knows..
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
Carfax shows the seatbelt recall in 1990 and the OP buying it last fall. Nothing else.
Last edited by chazman; 01-31-2019 at 09:00 PM.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
i agree with you .. ive been buying irocs, trans ams , mustangs and grand nationals for the last 25 years and i have no interest in a repaint on a low mile car .. i wont even look at it and i own a bodyshop .. to many nice ones that have original paint and are in excellent condition ..
#1076
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
Maybe if it just sat unregistered (would also be uninsured, right?) it would have no records..
My 88 had records of inspections and of course 2 previous owners..
This 89 is kind of a mystery car in some ways..
#1078
Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
That’s fair but for example, repaint Grand Nationals go for about the same price as original paint ones with low miles.. You might pass on it but someone will grab it.. That’s all I’m saying.. makes it a little tougher to sell, but it’ll sell for good money to someone..
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I don’t find that Grand National guys allow too much haggling repaint or not.. at least up here.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
GN's were painted with lacquer paint, and are known for getting "crows feet" cracks in the paint....so those get some leniency in the paint department. I've had two 87 GN's....and both had a few problem spots with that. I think that's why GN's tend to bring as much whether they've had paint work or not. 9 times out of 10, if they havent had it, they need it.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I was going to say, the original paint GN’s look a little rough sometimes..
There’s really amazing repaints that are show cars and then there are the guys that cheaped out on the paint job and still have dings imperfections and no door moldings, but they still want insane money..
I wonder if Thirdgens will get there..
There’s really amazing repaints that are show cars and then there are the guys that cheaped out on the paint job and still have dings imperfections and no door moldings, but they still want insane money..
I wonder if Thirdgens will get there..
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
GN's were painted with lacquer paint, and are known for getting "crows feet" cracks in the paint....so those get some leniency in the paint department. I've had two 87 GN's....and both had a few problem spots with that. I think that's why GN's tend to bring as much whether they've had paint work or not. 9 times out of 10, if they havent had it, they need it.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
It's a HUGE deal breaker for the private collectors that I know.....these guys own multi-million $$$ collections and wont even look at a car of this pedigree that has been re-painted
#1085
Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I'm sure there are plenty of high payers that wouldn't want a car that has had some paint work done. To not even look at it because of a few potential touch up spots seems pretty extreme. There are people out there that care more that it looks pristine than that it might have had some paint touch up to keep it looking good. Driving off the original paint only people will certainly affect the price, but how much might be within the noise range on a car like this.
#1086
Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I don't think that a quality repaint would necessarily hurt the value of a thirdgen. Lots of thirdgens had crappy paint from the factory. What'd bug me is a repaint done so poorly it looks like the local Maaco did the masking.
Kind of a moot point anyway since BJ auctions are all about foolish people separating themselves from their cash. It's like participating in an Ebay bidding war over the dumbest thing you can imagine, while the whole process is being broadcast on television. Only an idiot would buy a car there.
Kind of a moot point anyway since BJ auctions are all about foolish people separating themselves from their cash. It's like participating in an Ebay bidding war over the dumbest thing you can imagine, while the whole process is being broadcast on television. Only an idiot would buy a car there.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I don't think that a quality repaint would necessarily hurt the value of a thirdgen. Lots of thirdgens had crappy paint from the factory. What'd bug me is a repaint done so poorly it looks like the local Maaco did the masking.
Kind of a moot point anyway since BJ auctions are all about foolish people separating themselves from their cash. It's like participating in an Ebay bidding war over the dumbest thing you can imagine, while the whole process is being broadcast on television. Only an idiot would buy a car there.
Kind of a moot point anyway since BJ auctions are all about foolish people separating themselves from their cash. It's like participating in an Ebay bidding war over the dumbest thing you can imagine, while the whole process is being broadcast on television. Only an idiot would buy a car there.
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#1091
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I am sure my opinion means less than nothing but, I don't understand why there is such an investigation in this car. You aren't going to buy it. It's not a rare Porsche or Ferrari and the sale price is in the millions where the provenance/ history actually mean something to it's value. Most of you guys shredded this thing because it most likely had some poor touch ups done at the dealership back when it was new and the pictures taken were zoomed so far in you can see the flake on the "high quality" 80's paint job.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
GN's were painted with lacquer paint, and are known for getting "crows feet" cracks in the paint....so those get some leniency in the paint department. I've had two 87 GN's....and both had a few problem spots with that. I think that's why GN's tend to bring as much whether they've had paint work or not. 9 times out of 10, if they havent had it, they need it.
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Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
There are cars where repainting is less detrimental and, at a certain point, maybe even a positive.
A 344 mile car better be 100% original with perfect paint. A 10k mile car better be 100% original with perfect paint. A 20k car better be original with only minor, disclosed touch-ups on otherwise great paint. On a 30k-75k car, don't be surprised if the ground effects have been repainted or some chips touched up in the quarters and hood, but the car should still look like a good factory example. 75k+ on a 30 year old car is entering the territory where a repaint, if done correctly, can be a positive, because even well-cared for original paint may start to break down. If I were buying a 100k+ car that had a professionally done repaint, I'd view it as a positive.
Note the important caveats: if done correctly and disclosed.
The problem with paintwork is it is rarely done correctly because it is expensive, time consuming, and requires finding a talented, dedicated painter. Poor prep work, failure to properly disassemble or mask the car for paint, and selection of odd or non-factory colors can throw it all away. And then, even if it's done right, the car still has to be put back together straight... at which point the fresh paint will make all the old rubber and trim look terrible, so you better have your tail lights and seals replaced and your wheel wells cleaned up and those factory stickers reprinted in the door sills and... etc. etc.
And regardless of how the paintwork is done, it's not always properly documented or disclosed, leaving the buyer to figure out what happened. Nothing can sour a deal quicker than giving the impression that the seller is hiding something, intentional or not.
Also, should values rise to where good thirdgens consistently trade in the $30k range, a quality repaint will easily eat up a third of that value, meaning paintwork can turn a profitable sale into a loss.
This is why paint is such a big deal. We accept excellent factory paint, GM flaws and all - that's the way these cars were new! But repainting opens the door to all sorts of nit-picking and nickel and diming. And it's a tough crowd out there - even if you repaint it perfectly, some guy will pass on the car as "over-restored."
A 344 mile car better be 100% original with perfect paint. A 10k mile car better be 100% original with perfect paint. A 20k car better be original with only minor, disclosed touch-ups on otherwise great paint. On a 30k-75k car, don't be surprised if the ground effects have been repainted or some chips touched up in the quarters and hood, but the car should still look like a good factory example. 75k+ on a 30 year old car is entering the territory where a repaint, if done correctly, can be a positive, because even well-cared for original paint may start to break down. If I were buying a 100k+ car that had a professionally done repaint, I'd view it as a positive.
Note the important caveats: if done correctly and disclosed.
The problem with paintwork is it is rarely done correctly because it is expensive, time consuming, and requires finding a talented, dedicated painter. Poor prep work, failure to properly disassemble or mask the car for paint, and selection of odd or non-factory colors can throw it all away. And then, even if it's done right, the car still has to be put back together straight... at which point the fresh paint will make all the old rubber and trim look terrible, so you better have your tail lights and seals replaced and your wheel wells cleaned up and those factory stickers reprinted in the door sills and... etc. etc.
And regardless of how the paintwork is done, it's not always properly documented or disclosed, leaving the buyer to figure out what happened. Nothing can sour a deal quicker than giving the impression that the seller is hiding something, intentional or not.
Also, should values rise to where good thirdgens consistently trade in the $30k range, a quality repaint will easily eat up a third of that value, meaning paintwork can turn a profitable sale into a loss.
This is why paint is such a big deal. We accept excellent factory paint, GM flaws and all - that's the way these cars were new! But repainting opens the door to all sorts of nit-picking and nickel and diming. And it's a tough crowd out there - even if you repaint it perfectly, some guy will pass on the car as "over-restored."
#1096
Supreme Member
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iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chicagoland
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Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I have been lucky in that I've done pretty well on the last few cars I've sold. I disclose EVERYTHING! I am upfront on any problems or paintwork I discovered or am aware of. I get ALL of that out of the way at the start of the conversation and let the buyer decide. In the end, the honesty pays off.
#1097
Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
Mostly because someone came here and posted a hype thread, and it was shocking that a forum regular could misrepresent a car, assuming the facebook close ups were accurate.
We're picky around here. If you present something to the forum to be scrutinized, you better be prepared for any little thing to be picked out and commented upon. How the OP reacted to the scrutiny made it a contentious topic.
We're picky around here. If you present something to the forum to be scrutinized, you better be prepared for any little thing to be picked out and commented upon. How the OP reacted to the scrutiny made it a contentious topic.
#1099
Banned
Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
I can understand scrutinizing the poor quality touch-ups. I have owned almost 70 cars since 89 and I have sold hundreds of cars. I never sold a car and a person said: "that defect in the paint is perfect leave it alone it wont be original anymore." I have had defects repaired. Why does this matter if it was done pre-delivery? I can see why Phil is angry. I am not giving him an excuse because he chose to behave poorly and did nothing to prove his innocence but make ignorant threats. Let's be fair now, this issue should have been dead when Phil stopped responding. That's not happening here. Now it's about finding out the car has been flipped, (seriously you have time to run carfaxes??) it's been to the dealer for that etc. What is this accomplishing? If anything I would say it's devaluing the car and if the "record-breaking" car gets devalued what does that mean for everyone else's car? Seeing the "look whats on Ebay today" and "this guy is nuts what he is asking" discussions I see it hurts everyone in the long run. I do own a car that is not original but it is also somewhat rare. I am going out of my way to keep my car looking as close to original as possible and trying to bring the performance level up to where I can pull up next to a Toyota Camry and feel confident that I will smoke it. Am I wasting my time? Because if I go by some of the comments that I read about this great example and some other cars I am. I am still in the process of rescuing the turd that probably should have been parted out and the only thing that saved it was the "B4C" on the SPID. Boy do I feel stupid for wasting time, energy, and money after reading some of the comments on here.
#1100
Re: 1989 IROC 344 original miles
Has that been determined as fact?
So why are you contributing to what you believe is an issue by replying yourself?!
The plan and simple fact is this is a discussion forum. Current (then) owner of the car created this topic to announce a car. Current (then) owner announces he is listing the car on BJ and asked for feedback. In other words, the original poster of this thread created attention and received it.
Some who aren't familiar with this History/Originality section may not know that this section has a long history of helping to correct seller's misrepresentations of a car listed for sale online as well as correcting misinformation. This car of Phil's is just one of many examples where this community's experts come together to help educate a buyer, seller, or the public.
The plan and simple fact is this is a discussion forum. Current (then) owner of the car created this topic to announce a car. Current (then) owner announces he is listing the car on BJ and asked for feedback. In other words, the original poster of this thread created attention and received it.
Some who aren't familiar with this History/Originality section may not know that this section has a long history of helping to correct seller's misrepresentations of a car listed for sale online as well as correcting misinformation. This car of Phil's is just one of many examples where this community's experts come together to help educate a buyer, seller, or the public.