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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
That would be awesome, because then we can hear it directly from the accuser and see how his story holds up. If he's man enough to join just to discuss this issue, he then already has more credibility than what we've been subjected to so far here.
Scott,
Well having him join here would considerably escalate this situation, but would do nothing to minimize the responsibility of TGO here. So while the ADMIN is distancing the board from the Facebook page the instigators are trying to invite our guy to join... Puzzling, but OK then!
It's really simple. He needs to answer the question were those images reflective of the true condition of LOT 442.1 and were they taken on Barrett Jackson property?
He says No he looses. He says yes brand new situation happens. Stay tuned then.
For those watching: I tried to deescalate the thread earlier today but apparently the moderators are not interested. So be it.
JT not trying to argue with you, but the pictures were posted in a private group as stated on this thread. The person that posted these pictures stated he wanted Phil to see the pictures. If he was so worried about Phil seeing them he should have PM'd him.
Exactly. That is how a properly functioning forum avoids a train wreck thread like this.
Or, you know, you could stop pushing from your side... Or you could have just posted your own close-up photos.
Calling everyone on the forum names, and suggesting a vast conspiracy to rob you of your major achievement selling a car, is what turned the thread sour.
So while the ADMIN is distancing the board from the Facebook page the instigators are trying to invite our guy to join... Puzzling, but OK then!
Only for the fact that you continue to try and assert responsibility to TGO (and its members) for pictures that did not originate within TGO and are available online while our community simply hot-linked to them and discussed them. In a discussion forum of all things. The mystery guy is welcome to join this forum and participate - which is only fair since you proudly disclosed the guy's name and posted a picture of him. Let's have him on the show!
Originally Posted by CPC Norwood
For those watching: I tried to deescalate the thread earlier today but apparently the moderators are not interested. So be it.
Summary:
1) Car went to auction and sold. Apparently sold for a "world record" as said by previous owner on more than one occasion.
2) Pictures from Facebook appear on TGO after car was sold.
3) Said pictures suggest paint work of the car photographed.
4) Several members of our community are personally insulted by previous owner of car in question when discussion and questions occur.
5) Previous owner can't stop to save himself.
6) TGO is allegedly responsible for allowing members to discuss and ask questions about pictures on Facebook that may pertain to the same car as discussed in this thread.
7) Previous owner had numerous chances to address the discussion in a professional manner and could have conclusively ended the topic.
Or, you know, you could stop pushing from your side... Or you could have just posted your own close-up photos.
Calling everyone on the forum names, and suggesting a vast conspiracy to rob you of your major achievement selling a car, is what turned the thread sour.
Well let’s see where the chips fall then.
On one side we have four entities with first hand experience with the vehicle. Two of which have official documentation:
Reliable Carriers
Barrett-Jackson
Myself
new owner
yes that is right the new owner.. he confirmed to me tonight that the condition of the car is world class.
Phil, as the moderator of this forum, I tried supporting you and the option that the photos could be of another car, but you kept attacking people here and then claiming on a public forum that I was calling you a crook, which I NEVER did. Multiple times, I calmly requested if you could put up something to prove your case and you declined. I also provided the argument that the photos could be of another car, again, supporting you. I mentioned that you have an exceptional reputation of judging cars and knowing how to restore cars, etc, but you then respond by saying I'm calling you a crook. At some point, you just gotta give in and stop trying to help someone that's not willing to help themselves.
I started out being on your side, but the constant attacks, name calling, word twisting and the lack of responses to my questions have gotten us here.
This thread will remain open until we get 100% proof one way or the other. I hope, for the buyers sake, that there is a good explanation for what we saw in the pictures and that he's happy with his purchase. And to shut down your Sol Alinsky theory, I hope he did buy the car to flip and sells it in the near future for $50k. The higher the price of these auction cars, the higher potential value in mine when I get ready to sell.
Only for the fact that you continue to try and assert responsibility to TGO (and its members) for pictures that did not originate within TGO and are available online while our community simply hot-linked to them and discussed them. In a discussion forum of all things. The mystery guy is welcome to join this forum and participate - which is only fair since you proudly disclosed the guy's name and posted a picture of him. Let's have him on the show!
Summary:
1) Car went to auction and sold. Apparently sold for a "world record" as said by previous owner on more than one occasion.
2) Pictures from Facebook appear on TGO after car was sold.
3) Said pictures suggest paint work of the car photographed.
4) Several members of our community are personally insulted by previous owner of car in question when discussion and questions occur.
5) Previous owner can't stop to save himself.
6) TGO is allegedly responsible for allowing members to discuss and ask questions about pictures on Facebook that may pertain to the same car as discussed in this thread.
7) Previous owner had numerous chances to address the discussion in a professional manner and could have conclusively ended the topic.
JT, can you please provide the new member count since this reality show drama started? I would like to also shut down the theory that this is how TGO gets members to join a FREE forum.
JT, can you please provide the new member count since this reality show drama started? I would like to also shut down the theory that this is how TGO gets members to join a FREE forum.
Phil, as the moderator of this forum, I tried supporting you and the option that the photos could be of another car, but you kept attacking people here and then claiming on a public forum that I was calling you a crook, which I NEVER did. Multiple times, I calmly requested if you could put up something to prove your case and you declined. I also provided the argument that the photos could be of another car, again, supporting you. I mentioned that you have an exceptional reputation of judging cars and knowing how to restore cars, etc, but you then respond by saying I'm calling you a crook. At some point, you just gotta give in and stop trying to help someone that's not willing to help themselves.
I started out being on your side, but the constant attacks, name calling, word twisting and the lack of responses to my questions have gotten us here.
This thread will remain open until we get 100% proof one way or the other. I hope, for the buyers sake, that there is a good explanation for what we saw in the pictures and that he's happy with his purchase. And to shut down your Sol Alinsky theory, I hope he did buy the car to flip and sells it in the near future for $50k. The higher the price of these auction cars, the higher potential value in mine when I get ready to sell.
Scott,
With all due respect you will have little control over this thread in the not too distant future when this forums owner agent receives the cease and desist letter from the new owners Lawyer.
Sadly that is the direction the team here is taking this.
Ok. I did some digging and found this picture. It's not the largest, but it's what I had. This pic is definitely of the car and also shows the reflection of the tent roof. This looks just like the "drop ceiling" that was mentioned (see below pics). I wonder if this is what was previously called camera trickery? Sorry Phil, but I think we just nailed it down and your immediate defensive responses were to protect yourself, and nothing else. This issue is put to rest. In my mind, the paint we see on the car, is of the 344 mile IROC-Z just sold at Barrett-Jackson. Opinions?
Last edited by scottmoyer; 01-21-2019 at 09:35 PM.
Really Phil? You're still disputing this? I wasn't at the auction so I will not say I know 100% for a fact about any of it, but I have a photo that shows the tent reflection on the roof of your car and the same roof reflection is seen in multiple pictures that show the paint. Do you really think this Grant person, who you don't seem to personally know, took the time to create these photos just to discredit you? I think you're drowning now and have nothing else. What if this Grant person decides to bring up charges against you for slander and defamation of character? You still haven't proven a thing to any of us.
Ok. I did some digging and found this picture. It's not the largest, but it's what I had. This pic is definitely of the car and also shows the reflection of the tent roof. This looks just like the "drop ceiling" that was mentioned (see below pics). I wonder if this is what was previously called camera trickery? Sorry Phil, but I think we just nailed it down and your immediate defensive responses were to protect yourself, and nothing else. This issue is put to rest. In my mind, the paint we see on the car, is of the 344 mile IROC-Z just sold at Barrett-Jackson. Opinions?
Thank you I already have this printed and ready for the new owner.
Good deal. What about this picture that shows a reflection of a sign hanging over the car, and then the pic you showed of the empty parking spot? Did you Photoshop the empty spot, Phil? What does printing this for the new owner do? BTW, the outside photo of the tent has the same grid lines that we see from the inside. Did Grant really photoshop your picture too?
I’ve been a member here for a long time and this has to be one of the craziest threads I have ever seen.
Originally Posted by Drew
Or you could have just posted your own close-up photos.
With numberous people at this auction why couldn’t anyone just go take a picture of these questionable areas and post here to confirm / debunk the accusation??? I don’t know - it seems to me that this all could’ve been easily nipped in the bud very early on.
I’ve been a member here for a long time and this has to be one of the craziest threads I have ever seen.
With numberous people at this auction why couldn’t anyone just go take a picture of these questionable areas and post here to confirm / debunk the accusation??? I don’t know - it seems to me that this all could’ve been easily nipped in the bud very early on.
It is crazy because a select group are willing to burn place to the ground to save face. Remember these are all people with zero direct knowledge of the car, never owned it a day in their life however they are bound and determined to push this through to a conclusion.
This used to happen on the older muscle car forums when prices started to rise. Lots of litigation over cars and empty bank accounts at the end of the day.
This needs to stop - just sayin
Last edited by CPC Norwood; 01-21-2019 at 10:27 PM.
I have no dog in this race other than my love of these cars and this site. The listing from B.Jackson is still up and I don't see any evidence from the pics of it being the same as the photos from FB.https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Even...-IROC-Z-224975
I have absolutely zero financial interest in the paint questions on this car, and I'm sure the rest here don't either. I will reiterate what I said multiple times before. TGO is about facts and providing truthful data to the members and visitors that are looking for answers. We are willing to admit when we are wrong, but proof is needed for that. In this case, none of us have any reason to believe that the car wasn't as you described it, until someone on FB did. We just haven't gotten the proof yet to discredit the FB post.
It doesn't make sense that someone you don't personally know would go through the trouble to photoshop the pics to the level shown here. Your arguments from the start of the image postings have all been in question. Clay bar residue, compound, camera flash trickery, not the same car, Grant's car, photoshop... The only thing we've been able to disprove so far, are your arguments. All of them!
Well of course Nobody here is after Phil right? I have the entire thread printed. The entire thread is one big personal attack from page 5 forward and it is undeniable I called it pages ago-- It is a hit on my reputation and the car all driven by pure Jealousy over the sale outcome.
But now you guys are messing with the new owner because he now owns the car.
At the end of the day good or bad - you just may own this one Scott because the private FB guy had his stuff unmasked by TGO He did not do it - but you guys did and you are now masquerading as a team of self appointed prosecutors.
This is all beyond silly but I have been telling you this since the beginning.
Last edited by CPC Norwood; 01-21-2019 at 10:52 PM.
Ok, I am a professional painter. I have been for almost 20 years. I have had motorcycles that I've painted get features in BAGGERS magazine, and a truck that I painted made the cover of FOUR WHEELER magazine. I know paint. I know paint, very, very well.
I am currently the sole painter at a Chrysler dealership's body shop. We also have a Ford dealership at a nearby town.
Here is my $.02 after reading this thread....
First of all, this may or may not be a surprise......but NEW CARS GET PAINT WORK AT DEALERSHIPS. It happens...actually, quite a bit. I have probably done paint work on close to 10 brand new vehicles over the past year. It happens.
The pictures that are in question, are, 100% repaint pictures. There is no question about it, and no way to defend it. No excuses. The pics in question ARE repaint evidence. It is there..and very obvious.
If you clay bar a CLEAR COATED car, you should NOT get color residue. PERIOD. If you DO......it means 1 of 2 things. 1, you somehow burned through the clearcoat and got into the color basecoat. OR 2, the car has had paint repair work done with a single stage paint.
If you DID sand through the clearcoat and get into the basecoat on a metallic color (like flame red metallic) it will be a complete disaster and you will see the sand through spots. In fact, you won't be able to hide them. The metallics will get all shifted around, too.
I see the only possible way to get color residue on that particular car with a clay bar is by using a clay bar over SINGLE STAGE paint......and it didnt leave the factory with single stage paint.
If the new owner is concerned about the reputation of his car.....he could clear up the case by joining this site and posting pics. That would verify if the car in the pictures in question are of his car or not. If it were my car and its reputation was being scarred like this.....I would be posting pics pretty darn quick to prove otherwise....
The End.
Edit: I really, really want the pics in question to be of a different car. Other people at the sale that looked at the car would have noticed all of those flaws, too.....or so you'd think. Especially on a 300 mile car...
The pics from Barrett Jackson sure don't look like the repaint pics. Link is on post 474.
How can you really tell? Those pictures and the last ones by Phil aren't very detailed enough to make a concrete comparison against the ones on Facebook that are. Could borrow the same argument of photo trickery that might be hiding issues. Or does the photo trickery angle only work for one side?
Speaking of the end of the day, we can have our own opinions and that includes myself despite Phil is giving me attention as if my place doesn't allow it. The guy who changes their explanations, insults members and then makes numerous legal threats is not the person I'm going to trust over a person on Facebook that I don't know. The car in question might not have any paintwork but a few days ago that became less relevant to me over someone damaging their own name with their absolute poor conduct by trying to take down members of this community. I stand by members like Scott, Charlie, Drew, John and many more that have made this place what it is.
There aren't any super close pics, though. Everything is from a distance. The stuff in question would need to be photographed very close.
All I am saying is the pics in question ARE repaint pics.......whether or not it is of that car is my issue. And, being the enthusiast that I am, I sure hope it's not. But, unfortunately, the reflection evidence of the tent, kind of shoots that to hell
There aren't any super close pics, though. Everything is from a distance. The stuff in question would need to be photographed very close.
All I am saying is the pics in question ARE repaint pics.......whether or not it is of that car is my issue. And, being the enthusiast that I am, I sure hope it's not. But, unfortunately, the reflection evidence of the tent, kind of shoots that to hell
I feel the same. LOVE the car, so the pics kind of bummed me out.
Ok, I am a professional painter. I have been for almost 20 years. I have had motorcycles that I've painted get features in BAGGERS magazine, and a truck that I painted made the cover of FOUR WHEELER magazine. I know paint. I know paint, very, very well.
I am currently the sole painter at a Chrysler dealership's body shop. We also have a Ford dealership at a nearby town.
Here is my $.02 after reading this thread....
First of all, this may or may not be a surprise......but NEW CARS GET PAINT WORK AT DEALERSHIPS. It happens...actually, quite a bit. I have probably done paint work on close to 10 brand new vehicles over the past year. It happens.
The pictures that are in question, are, 100% repaint pictures. There is no question about it, and no way to defend it. No excuses. The pics in question ARE repaint evidence. It is there..and very obvious.
If you clay bar a CLEAR COATED car, you should NOT get color residue. PERIOD. If you DO......it means 1 of 2 things. 1, you somehow burned through the clearcoat and got into the color basecoat. OR 2, the car has had paint repair work done with a single stage paint.
If you DID sand through the clearcoat and get into the basecoat on a metallic color (like flame red metallic) it will be a complete disaster and you will see the sand through spots. In fact, you won't be able to hide them. The metallics will get all shifted around, too.
I see the only possible way to get color residue on that particular car with a clay bar is by using a clay bar over SINGLE STAGE paint......and it didnt leave the factory with single stage paint.
If the new owner is concerned about the reputation of his car.....he could clear up the case by joining this site and posting pics. That would verify if the car in the pictures in question are of his car or not. If it were my car and its reputation was being scarred like this.....I would be posting pics pretty darn quick to prove otherwise....
The End.
Edit: I really, really want the pics in question to be of a different car. Other people at the sale that looked at the car would have noticed all of those flaws, too.....or so you'd think. Especially on a 300 mile car...
Got it.
You do not even know where the plastic parts were sourced from and which vendors supplied them in 1989. So you like the others have an opinion that is based on opinion - but you are on to something when you say the images could be another car!
BTW...Plastic parts where I got red residue during the rub were sourced from Ramir plant in Mexico and were not OEM clear coated.
This is a fact and confirmed again by Dan Edwards in Arizona.
OK. this will likely get real soon for several of the participants here so lets run the stupidity level right to max shall we?
Who thinks this image belongs to the 344 mile car pictured below in the bottom image?
Now for bonus points I will say this again do you really think the bidders are this stupid? For the first time somebody besides me please stand up and be honest?
Now that we are getting to the Nub of things here, anybody want to tally up the Code of conduct violations in this one thread that the moderators permitted to happen? I have a running tally and I know the rules.
And for the record no manipulation of any of my images has happened... and I have many more images of this car here, and the new owner has direct access to the real car.
These Images are from our facebook guy What is different about the belt molding?? first Photo was manipulated, IT HAS A GROOVE White Mark on the door is also missing FAKE.
Last edited by CPC Norwood; 01-22-2019 at 07:46 AM.
Reason: clairification
Get some new detailed pics of the friggen car from the new owner and post them up here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is so friggen hard about that?????????? This thread could have ended 8 pages back if you just supplied updated pictures proving the car doesn't have paint repair work. Had this been me in your shoes, I would have either defended the car with a video and detailed pics and shut everyone up or....if it was repainted AND I lied AND I got called out on it .....I would have most likely NOT come on a public forum running my mouth and spewing bullshit claims. First you said it was from using a clay bar. Then you said it was the plastics. Then you said it was fake pictures. Your reputation here as well as your word and trust are gone. Great job .
Last edited by BOTTLEDZ28; 01-22-2019 at 08:19 AM.
Guys - here is proof how deceptive magnified pics (from a smart phone) can be........the top pic is a shot of my 92 Z/28 13,000 miles (original paint and body, etc)
as you can see in this pic the gaps, paint, etc look very good (normal)........the bottom pic is a shot that is magnified (zoomed in).....notice how the gaps now look like they are excessive and paint not so good ???
Phil - I've never seen someone change their story so many times.......OMG dude.....you just keep digging a deeper hole
These Images are from our facebook guy What is different about the belt molding?? first Photo was manipulated, IT HAS A GROOVE White Mark on the door is also missing FAKE.
A deeper Hole??
The photos posted by here on TGO from the facebook guy that were placed here (and started this mess) by a TGO member are manipulated images. If you can not see this then you are not being honest.
The real agenda is exposed. No amount of distraction or overposting will change that.
Apology line starts here and It needs to begin with the moderators.
Man up.
I'm not convinced. Posting low resolution pictures and trying to enhance them does nothing for detail. Could be photo trickery.
Seriously - Phil step back and reevaluate what you're doing.You've made yourself look foolish even if, in the end, the claim you make is in fact right that the pictures were altered or not of your car (your story changes on this). Life is not just about just being Right or Wrong but how one responds and conducts themselves. That's where you've done pretty bad for yourself.
Phil, again your attitude is very immature for a supposed professional. I still don't see any personal attacks on you in this thread, except when in response to your name calling. People started out very cordial and you ran the attack. I expect that the legal team you say that you've attained, will read all of this and determine that you tried pulling people in many times. You tried to get us to acknowledge something that none of us said. You tried saying that we were calling you a crook, and we never did. You're trying to get us to state 100% that the pictures posted are of the car in question. All we have is what we see here and everything we mention is speculation and opinion. YOU blew this entire post into what it has become. I owe you nothing, so you can stop waiting. Your attitude and behavior towards me and others is why I won't apologize to you.
We can probably go back 5 pages and find where you were asked for a simple picture of these same areas, while the car was still onsite at BJ. You still keep saying that we're attacking you and your reputation, when all we are talking about is paint on a car. Please remember that this is thirdgen.org, not Philgen.org. It's not about you, it's about the car! The end.
The photos posted by here on TGO from the facebook guy that were placed here (and started this mess) by a TGO member are manipulated images. If you can not see this then you are not being honest.
The real agenda is exposed. No amount of distraction or overposting will change that.
I thought the pics were not of your car ????........Now you are saying they are manipulated images ????
So your story has changed yet again ???
01-21-2019, 06:01 PM
