LiquidBlue

Some info on 1LE T/A

http://phscollectorcarworld.blogspot...tion-high.html

KMK454

Thanks for sharing!

Even though some would consider it sacrilege, if I could find a perfect set of those SLP headers and 2OTL, I'd take out my 25k mile N10 exhaust.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

The slp headers and y pipe require cutting and welding on the factory N10 b4 the cats to make it work.

thanks 4 sharing the link, I don't have that story. Wish I could get it to print

Drew

iTrader: (58)

It sure looks like we'll never see 1LE addressed in the media as what it REALLY is - dual piston front brakes with larger rotors. I get the attraction and why writers always try to lump everything into the "1LE package", but it'd be nice if just once a writer would mention that everything else aside from the brakes was available without 1LE. It's not like you could order a L98 or the better LB9 in 1991, without getting the 1LE type fuel system, N10 cats, G90, etc. Seriously, the 1LE myth dies harder than those 50 L98 IrocZs. (/pet peeve)

Drew

iTrader: (58)

*G80 - typo.

B4C5.7

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the article Jim! 1LE is package of go fast goodies in a one stop shopping place, cool!

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Drew, carrying some anger issues around with you?

Yes, just like the L69, "the parts were around" and used on other models. The difference here is they were all assembled in one cohesive package and, in most cases, deleted other options to produce a race winning package.

Great link and interesting article, thanks for posting!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Not especially, it's just the 20 years of 1LE hype and misunderstandings. It took FOREVER for the 50 'special' L98 Iroc myth to die. The 350 5spd myth. The 350 T-top myth. By and large all of the above can be traced back to some confused journalist who wrote an article with some bad information. It gets repeated so often that eventually you can explain to someone exactly what something really is, and some newb will jump on right after and say "well my brother's sister's best friend's uncle Cletus' next door neighbor has a 1986 Iroc with a 350tpi 5spd and ttops that flip up vertically like gull wing doors. He special ordered it, got whatever he wanted because he worked nights waxing the Chevy dealer's showroom floor." It sounds silly but thats exactly the kind of thing that used to be posted on here, and still pops up in other places when the thirdgen topic comes up.

The 1LE myth is just more commonly accepted. 1LE is brakes. Take away the brakes, there's no 1LE code. Take away the 1LE code and the heavy duty brakes go away, but virtually everything else stays the same.

Just one of those things... You know, a pet peeve. A pet peeve is a minor annoyance that an individual identifies as particularly annoying to themself, to a greater degree than others may find.

KMK454

...

KMK454

My N10 converters are grateful that SLP parts are rare.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

It's not to bad at all really and if careful, it could be reversed

B4C5.7

iTrader: (2)

Easier to reverse than transmission carnage😳

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

That picture should get posted someplace!

B4C5.7

iTrader: (2)

Too funny...I have never seen an automatic in a street car look like that. You would need to pull off your shoes and see how many toes you still had left.

edpontiac91

iTrader: (2)

I could have installed the SLP headers way back when(1992), but there was a couple of issues that stopped me. One was the PRICE and Second was seeing them installed on other Firebirds and noticed that they were already starting to rust in just a few months. Seems like there wasen't the really high grade of stainless steel (401). I went with the Edlebrock TES (with the AIR tubes) and even had them COATED inside and out and they still were cheaper than the SLP design. Now 23 years later, there isn't a spot of rust anywhere on them.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

You are tooo kind I have left the trans together all these yrs but think I may pull the pan off soon, that's the only thing holding it together

edpontiac91

iTrader: (2)

Anyway we can get a copy of this report? Something we can print out or a mailing address?

LiquidBlue

Ed - not sure what report you are referring to. There is a link on the entry of this thread. Did I miss something?

edpontiac91

iTrader: (2)

Jim, it's the 1991 1LE and SLP article that YOU put up as a thread. Can we get a printout (to hold in our hand) of that article? I know we can look at the link, but I was hoping there is someway of putting this on paper. Thanks, ED

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yes, right click the mouse and when the print window pops up, hit print.

edpontiac91

iTrader: (2)

WOW, IT WORKS! First time my computer didn't freeze up or blow-up!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

That's odd. Did you check if the big red digital clock is still counting down? It might only explode after it gets to zero. Also gotta watch that your harddrive doesnt dip below 55mph or it may explode.

edpontiac91

iTrader: (2)

I wish my HARD DRIVE was still working. When you reach 70+ it takes a long time to EXPLODE!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Well played, Sir.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Winner of the internet for a day!

Mark_ZZ3

Brilliant ... best way to describe it. I've seen 1LE's with darn near any combination. The only thing 1LE got you was the brakes. The rest of the stuff came in other packages.

But hey I like the myth ... keeps people talking. :-)

Now to go out for a ride in my 1986 350 TPI T-top 5speed and get some ice cream!

LiquidBlue

1LE just a brake option? How many were delivered by GM?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Oh, only about 1500 1989 Turbo Trans Ams, almost 600 1992 B4C cop cars, and all those factory 'race' cars from 1988-1992. I'm sure someone has more concrete numbers, but really GM used the 1LE code to represent the front brake package - that's all. The suspension was all standard FE2 stuff. The "special" fuel system was standard on everything by 1991 at the latest, including V6 cars. The oil cooler, dual cats, and decent gears were generally required with the better TPI 305s and all the 350 cars. It just so happens that 1LE required the best 305 or 350.

The article in the link says:

Now in reality, items 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 were all standard equipment, required on all 350 TPI 1991 Firebirds. 305 TPI cars optioned with the "performance enhancement group" also came with all of those options. The aluminum driveshaft isn't all that special either, GM used JG1 frequently on non-1LE cars. We've also seen where 1LE hasn't always required the A/C delete, which leaves only one thing specific to 1LE. The HD front brakes.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Do you have a parts book from 1990 or 91? Take a walk through it and see how many specific parts are listed for 1LE - there are 100's! Why? For just brakes? I don't know.

Actually, I think you have this all backwards. The 1LE was a purposeful list of performance parts that were assembled into one cohesive race winning package. Some of those same parts were shared with the rest of the lineup as running improvements.

1LE Production for Pontiac was 172, that does not include the TTA's because the RPO code was not included and they are generally not counted. It does include the Firehawk cars however.

1988 - 3 Trans Am's
1989 - 26 Trans Am's
1990 - 4 Trans Am's
1991 - 46 Formulas, 62 Trans Am's
1992 - 22 Formulas, 9 Trans Am's


1LE Production for Chevrolet was 1360 and that included a handful of late 1991 B4C Police Package cars and all of the B4C's built in 1992.

1988 - 4
1989 - 111
1990 - 62
1991 - 478
1992 - 705

With over 2 million Camaros & Firebirds built in the decade between 1982 and 1992, just 1532 1LE equipped cars were built. They are indeed rare and special, and as Ferris Bueller says, "I love driving it, it is so choice! If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up!"

B4C5.7

iTrader: (2)

Ck the $'s the 1LE's are bringing....more than front brakes.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I do. My thirdgen reference library is quite extensive and constantly growing. I've yet to see anything to suggest that anything beyond the front brakes is specific to 1LE.

That's one way you could look at it. Another way to look at it is that GM applied solutions to problems across the entire line with preference to 1LE cars. Either way you can't say a package included X option when it was included without that option code.

Rare and special, maybe. Hyped into the cosmos, undeniably.

Why wouldn't 1LE's be selling for crazy money? They've been pitched as the ultimate performance and collector Thirdgen in damn near every article since 1989. If I told you that a few people on this forum hyped the Wonder Bar in the late 90's resulting in a boom of demand and several aftermarket reproductions that continues 20 years later, you would probably think I was kidding.

Trouble is this article and many many others like it are simply wrong. They're prime examples of misinterpreting the data and the message getting twisted as it's passed down the line. Like the telephone game, only worse because it's printed in magazines and online articles that are accepted for gospel, and stick around forever.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Seriously Drew, history has well proven that the top example of virtually anything coupled with ultra low supply will prove to be the most desirable and valuable.

Why you, and a few others, continue to misrepresent the 1LE cars as something undeserving ANY recognition or consideration is not only tiresome but suspect.

okfoz

Here is where I would disagree... The 1LE included the G80, the J65, the Aluminum Driveshaft, and even the fuel tank (for 1 or 2 years), etc. and they could not be removed if you got the 1LE... So yes, they could be had separately, but they were mandatory with the 1LE so therefore they are part of the 1LE.

If you take your logic, then the B2L did not include the Automatic transmission because the Auto trans was available with engines other than the L98, but in reality, the B2L did include the Automatic transmission because that is the only way it came. Likewise the only way you could get the 1LE was with those options... Ultimately the 1LE was the brakes, but it was an option package that included more than just the brakes, it included those other options as well...

John

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Except they're not necessarily the "top example" of thirdgens. They're not a Firehawk, or a TTA, or even a B4C.

Did I say they were "undeserving ANY recognition"? Or did I say that almost always they're misrepresented? There is a difference.

Except it's not a package that includes much beyond the front brakes. To order a 1LE car, the other options were required, as in a prerequisite. It's a minor distinction, but that is how the system worked.

The auto trans isn't part of B2L/L98 either. Look at an invoice for a B2L/L98, you'll find a price for the engine, then you'll find the MX0 item for the transmission billed on a separate line. While it's true that one required the other, it doesn't mean the required part was part of the option package.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Both the Firehawk and the TTA were not factory built and how would a B4C become any better than a 1LE? In 1991 only 6 got the "brakes" and the fact that the 1992's did and you got A/C as well - most performance buyers would not view the A/C as a plus.

Power options like windows and door locks? The R7U 1LE's got those, as did some of the Pontiac 1LE's - heck, some of those even got T-Tops!

It's a flexible ruler you seem to be using Drew, but one that always ends at the same point.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Whatever. If you're going to put words in my mouth, and question my credibility, I'm not going to waste any more of my time. There are facts, and opinions, and regardless of the facts I demonstrate to you, I'm not going to change your biased opinion.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just defend the ones you've already let out.

You are right however, this has grown tiresome.

Mark_ZZ3

Too correct myself ... (no I don't own a rare 1986), but the 1LE cars did come with front struts unique to the 1LE cars. The R7U cars got race specific ones, however the 1LE parts were considered ok as replacements. I can't recall if the rear shocks were unique or not ... I don't think so as I never read up on there being different ones. So brakes and struts were unique 1LE part numbers for sure. Other components were available outside 1LE "package".

Cheers!
Mark.

LiquidBlue

I see this comment from a lot of guys that live up north. Try no A/C on a nice muggy Houston summer day sometime. Down here, for a nice horsepower to weight ratio trade-off, we take off the T-Tops, and crank up the A/C. The A/C gets turned off only when its time to put the hammer down!

LiquidBlue

What were the struts?

Mark_ZZ3

1LE front struts - 22064153
R7U front struts - 22074399 Code "LB"

1LE rear shocks - 22064149
R7U rear shock - 22089138 code "W7"

Mark_ZZ3

I will also add that 1LE contributed to the following over a non-1LE car:

Front strut: 22064153
Rear lower control arm: 10164151 (1991 prod year) 10081636 (1990 prod year)
Rear lower control arm bushing: 10164152
Rear shock absorber: 22064149

There is some info suggesting a brace was also part of 1LE, but may have become standard on certain models. As we have seen, race parts become stock as years went on.

Front brace (frt end sheet metal radiator opening): 14039401
Front rail reinforcement: 14042019

Mark.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

You've got me on the shocks and struts. I generally overlook them because I don't consider them too relevant 25 years later, since any originals are likely spent at this point anyway. But the books do give different part numbers.

Likewise I agree that the rear lower control arms are different part numbers, but looking at the vast variety of numbers used from 82-92, I cant say that I've ever noticed any difference in rear lower control arms, in person. I mean I've got at least three sets of stock LCAs out in the shed, and they all look exactly the same. Aside from some earlier years with a bolt in brace of dubious value, I can't say I've ever noticed any differences. Maybe when new the bushings were of harder/softer rubber.

No dice on 14039401 & 14042019, those parts were around before production started. I don't think I've ever seen a thirdgen without the radiator opening braces, and the other brace is there on virtually every Z28 from 82-92.

The point remains that the article which started this thread rattles off a bunch of things as 1LE parts, but didn't say a thing about shocks, struts, and lower control arms. And sure you could say in the earlier years 1LE meant more than later, but the article is talking specifically about 1991 - even with it's photo of an earlier Trans Am.

LiquidBlue

Thanks for strut info. Have to take a close look at that. As an areospace engineer gone bad, I've seen part number be very slight. Sometimes just a color. Not saying that is the case, but always requires scrutinization. Love learning about this stuff. When I first saw my car in 1992, I knew it was something special. Still is. 1LE or not!

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

We won't mention the spindles or bearings either, dubious value anyways - the package is just brakes.

I hear you on the A/C, up North here before "climate change" back in the day, I can remember driving around with the t-tops off and the HEAT on.

edpontiac91

iTrader: (2)

Here's one question for you experts. What is this small "Brace Bar Support" in the picture? As you can see, there is even a small lip that extends from the R.S. hood hinge, that it attaches to. I have seen this on SOME models and NOT on others. What is it called and what was it supposed do. Did it have any function and was it used on the 1LE models and then just put on from time to time as the factory seen fit?

On the other picture, I also noticed some models had a small (about 6" long) thick bar that attached to the side of the front frame and the inside of the fender well. It looks like there was no way this was bolted on BEFORE the motor was dropped in. I do NOT have this part, but if I could get one, it would be REALLY hard to install!

Mark_ZZ3

Ha Ha ... we still do! Have to look cool and keep warm.

Mark_ZZ3

And remember I'm a book hound. Lots of info and stats from the race cars and some 1LE. And really ... as long as a R7U or 1LE has the correct parts installed ... that's what counts. For the other cars, it's a bonus as a result of the racing programs.

And kudos that the 1LE is still around in the newest camaros. It does not have the same ring to it as SS or Z28 ... but still cool a Thirdgen code has made it.

Mark.

KMK454

Interesting, thanks for sharing! Everything I had read here in this forum suggested brakes were the only real difference... looks like that was bad information and I learned something new.

Were the above parts in any way better or different from non-1LE parts (and how so)? Or were these just unique part numbers for what was basically the same item?

chazman

iTrader: (4)

The 1LE control arms were identical to the the non 1LE control arms other than the bushings. 1LE version got firmer bushings. I bought a set from the Chevy dealer in the early '90's which I never used.