23 Willys

My son is graduating high school this week. His grandpa gave him a LS3 engine for his graduation. His grandma gave him a Honda Accord to keep or sell for his graduation. He was going to put the Ls3 in his 91 RS Camaro, but I talked him down last week. I suggested that it might be a better idea to sell the Honda and buy another car of his choice to put the LS3 into while he drives his current car. His current car runs nice with the v6 and rebuilt transmission in it, I hated to see him cut it up. He sold the Honda last week and had a couple grand gathered up to find his next car. His favorite is the second Gen Camaro, and he decided it must have T-tops. I had found a couple that may work for him including one without an engine for $1,500, and one that doesn't run very well and pretty hacked up for $1,500 also. I picked up a free car trader Friday at lunch and found a Camaro in it that looked pretty unmolested for $2,500. We decided that that one would be the best one to look at first. This car has had a respray, but is extremely solid underneath. I saw evidence of recent maintenance including a new wiper motor, plug wires, battery, oxygen sensor. Everything looks pretty original including the crossfire injection setup and functioning air scoops on the hood. It has power mirrors, T-tops, power windows. Starts, runs, drives, steers, and stops great. Got the guy talked down to $1,900, and gladly raced home to go get the trailer and money to go pick it up. The car needs valve seals, but I think we're just going to do that to the car and he is just going to enjoy it the way it is for the summer. He is going to swap some of the nicer stuff off his current Camaro onto this one, and it will get a scuff and re-shoot. Eventually he will get the larger engine and a 5speed into it, but I think we were both just suprised to get such a highly optioned 83 Z28 in such solid shape for the money.
I'm curious of the rarity, value, and anything special I should know about the car. Especially the crossfire injection system. Is there anything I should tell him to keep an eye on or do to maintain the archaic fuel injection? Thanks.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Crossfires are becoming rarer and rarer. First, they were only made for a couple of years in our cars. Secondly, they were not well understood, so many of them were swapped for carbs.

Those of us who have them, think they are neat, look cool, are technically interesting, and enjoy watching the hood flaps open as the twin aircleaners take a gulp of fresh air. They do take some fiddling though, and this site has alot of Crossfire advice to give.

BTW, welcome to the site.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

It is your car and you can do whatever you guys want, but I would NEVER swap an LS into that car when you have a v6 car in the fleet as well. Charlie is right, Crossfire cars are getting rare and that one looks like it's in good shape. I'd spruce it up and drive it like it is and motor swap the v6 car as they are basically worthless. Don't let the fact that you got the car so cheap cloud the fact that it is rare and could be worth some money when cleaned up nice.

FormerL69

iTrader: (2)

Seems like a solid looking car from the pics.

I'll start by saying I'm a Crossfire advocate as well and if you have one that's running, I would hate to see you remove it. It all depends on what your goals are for the car. The CFI has well documented limitations as far as making power, but then again, so does using the regular 305 block that came with the car.

As others have already said, the general feeling is that most of of these CFIs have been ripped and replaced by cards because the injection system is misunderstood. IMHO, I'm fairly new to the set up and I honestly don't think it is difficult to understand or maintain once you have the right info in hand -- which is easy to find.

The three big things with the Crossfire system are making sure you have NO vacuum leaks, make sure the injectors are balanced (requires a simple manometer that you can make yourself) and to make sure to add bushings to the linkages to prevent slop (they weren't bushed from the factory).

If you decide not to use the CFI, I'd ask that yo uremove it carefully and don't hack it up. Despite the lack of love for them, those of us still running them could use the parts. For me -- if you're not going for the quickest the 1/4 slips, CFI is a unique deal to have.

yaj15

iTrader: (3)

I agree with what the others have said. The early thirdgens ('82-'84) are very hard to find in good shape now. At this point many of them are either very nice or very trashed. The '83 you found looks like a solid car. It may not have the most powerful engine in the world but its a nice car and should be saved. Thirdgens still are some of the best handling cars made period. You could also work on the LU5 and hop it up if you wanted to in the '83.

Having a V6 RS car would be a perfect subject for you to go all out and modify and make a sleeper. Even if you put an LS9 in your RS and parked it next to your Z28 - until you drove them people would still think your Z28 is faster if they didn't know any better. Ha ha that would be a nice surprise. The Z28 name caries a lot of wait. Even people that know nothing about cars usually know that a Z28 is a quick car.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I'll throw in my $.02 worth:

I DETEST Crossfire. I vividly recall the first TBI car I drove, seems like it was a Citation or Celebrity or some such, just yerbasic rent-a-mule in about 81 or so. My impression of driving that car were, that it ran "OK"; made "OK" power for what it was, at least I wasn't in constant fear of pulling out in front of somebody and getting rear-ended; started up effortlessly; got "OK" gas mileage; but was COMPLETELY underwhelming in the "excitement" department. It reminded me of driving a fork lift or a big tractor or something like that. Fast forward to the beginning of the 82 model year: I saw these AWESOME looking new Z28s on the dealer lots, so I HAD TO test drive one (my DD at the time was a 79 Z28 4-spd that I had put a set of double-hump heads and a Holley 6210 on, but any of you who have ever had a 2nd gen will know why I wasn't satisfied with it). I got in one of those Z28s, and was IMMEDIATELY AND TOTALLY underwhelmed. It drove EXACTLY like the Citation or whatever POS, except ... there was twice as much of it. 5.0 instead of 2.5, 2 TBs instead of 1, but still ran JUST LIKE a tractor. Just .... no ..... sense of brute force, no rush of acceleration, no instant response to throttle movement, no .... hot-rod feel at all. Worse, my old 79 pig would run circles around it.

The LG4 cars were even slower, but were considerably cheeeeeper. So I kept my money in my pocket and got back in my 2nd gen and went home and left all the 82s at the dealer.

I kept driving my old slug until the HO cars came out in late MY 83; first new car in a decade that would have outrun my old pig.

IMO Crossfire is a typical thing that happens when something new is introduced; kind of like beta-test software. Just not ready for prime-time. Granted it was GM's first attempt at a "performance" electronic fuel injection system, and so, the bar maybe shouldn't necessarily be set real high; but even cutting it that much slack, that setup was pretty dismal. IMO unless you're building a museum, it's best left in the dustbin of historical curiosities. I'd agree with the suggestion of carefully removing it intact and unharmed, but I sure as hell wouldn't drive it.

Then there's the matter of the computer it used.... I don't know how many of you guys had PCs in 1982, but for those who did, imagine surfing the Net with what you had back then. That's a big part of the problem with CFI, was that the computer was JUST BARELY adequate for the task at hand, and couldn't react quickly to anything; which probably contributed to the overall feeling of sluggishness and lack of response. I hear of people taking a more nearly modern TBI conputer, like only 20 years old instead of 30, and making a substantial improvement, which makes complete sense; but I have no personal experience with such a thing.

And don't get me started on the runners that are just over half the cross-sectional area of the ports in the heads. That basically guarantees that whatever power it makes now, it has NO CHANCE of being improved upon.

Catch me sometime when it's not Mother's Day and I'll tell you how I REALLY feel about it.

23 Willys

Thanks for all the info. I talked to him about just driving the car the way it is for this summer. The whole engine will probably be removed intact when he decides to make the swap. He's not going to remove the engine without thinking about it for a while or planning ahead.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

sofa, if you continue to supress your feelings, you'll get an ulcer.

Actually, I hated CFI in 1982 as well. I test drove one back then, and just found it - slow. I hated it also, because GM couldn't certify it with a stick as promised. And the fact that a 5.0 Mustang could beat it as easily as clubbing baby seals, didn't make me feel any better either.

It probably took me a good couple of decades to overcomes these negative feelings. Then one day, I thought it'd be neat to see what it would take to get one running right and I bought one.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

I have owned a CFI for 23 years. They have their limitations, but are a part of thirdgen history. But if I had a choice to rip out a crossfire for an LS swap or a crappy v6 model, I would tear out that V6 in a heartbeat. Crossfires can be hopped up like any engine. You can build a 383 and put the Crossfire on it. The intake can be ported, or you can get a Renegade. You can also leave it stock and appreciate it for what it was - a stepping stone and a test bed for bigger and better things. It's too bad your going to ruin that car. It seems such a shame when you have the perfect candidate for an LS swap in your driveway.

23 Willys

The RS car will be sold, it has it's issues with rust. Plus all the chassis, T-tops, and options are working in the favor of the Z28 as the keeper. The sole intention of buying this car was so he had his current car to drive while he got the next car ready to drive. We weren't expecting to find a car nice enough to just install liscense plates and drive. He might fall in love with the way it already is. We plan on replacing the valve seals next weekend.

2007xl50

I don't know much about the CFI's but the Z28 you picked up looks like a nice car, might want to clean it up and see how it goes for a bit. I was looking for a car to mod when I was looking then found my low mileage, rust free all orriginal 87 WS6. Now that I have the car I do not have the heart to hack it up so over time it's going to be restored to near stock and keep the mileage low. Sometimes you have to rethink your plan for the good of the car you are dealing with.

Coyote850

iTrader: (1)

Get it running good and keep it stock. A CFI car runs good, no matter what anyone else tells you.

23 Willys

I just spent all day Sunday replacing the valve seals on the driver side of the engine. Also put new plugs in it, adjusted the valves, and removed the smog pump plumbing. The smog pump was bypassed already, and the damn stainless tubes on the exhaust manifold made it impossible to remove the plugs. The sawzall came out, I removed the fittings in the exhaust manifold, I welded the holes shut, and reinstalled them.
Onto the right side when I get enough motivation to take another swing at it. It's a DAMN tedious job.