chazman

iTrader: (4)

We've been over this so many times, I just don't know what hasn't been said already. But here's a couple thoughts:

I think I4 and V6's deserve saving. So many people in our own community regard them as throw aways. They are usually seen as nothing more than recipients for mystery, junkyard, "350s" (which post-swap, usually makes them worthless). That attitude kinda needs to stop.

I understand that some cars need to be parted, but it seems some folks are a little too eager to part cars. Basicly, if they got it for cheap, it doesn't get saved or sold, it's getting parted. I've seen several saveable, running, rough but unmolested, T5/LB9 cars here over the past couple of years parted. I asked one guy here, why he was parting a running, unrusted T5/LB9. He said: "I get'em for cheap and part 'em. That's what I do". If I were the guy finding one of those neglected cars, sitting for years in someone's driveway or garage, and were able to pick it up cheaply, I sure as hell wouldn't part it. Just me though.

Many, many, more 3rd gens will die before the lower end start being valuable enough to save. Pity.

eseibel67

Bah, who cares about the econo low end models. I won't shed a tear if they're stripped for parts and thier carcasses are crushed. You can't save every starfish that washes up on the beach.

Across all brands and models, there were millions produced. And there are plenty of very well presverved examples listed for sale all the time.

cIaRmOaCrZo

lt1zr28

My ? Isn't to part out or not.Its more about saving our cars.It doesn't seem to matter to some even
if its 305 v/8 .I think that if someone had purchased their thirdgen new.They may have more concern
about what's happening to these car's.Don't get me wrong I'm sure most all of use do care about our car's.That's why we are here.IMO.................
Long live our ThirdGen's

Dartht33bagger

Why does it matter though? If you pick up a manageable V6 car and turn it into an IROC or Z28 clone, why isn't it worth saving? Who cares if its only a "clone". To me a clone is just as good as the real thing as long as it is done correctly.

Jason E

And that's the careless attitude right there that makes me sad to be a member of this "enthusiast" community. Enough said. If we don't value them, who will?

DD9TransAmGTA

iTrader: (1)

My opinion is it would be awesome if we could save every thirdgen but lets be realistic. We got to use some for parts. Yeah we could use reproductions but that can be pricey. PLUS if we save every thirdgen there will be tons and our cars will never go up in value

1985WS6TA

I actually run across many 3rd gens here in northeast nebraska. I have 5 3rd gen birds laying around that I can't get rid of even if 4 of them are my parts cars. two of just need to be crushed cause the both would require floor pans and quarter patches that noone really wants to fix it seems. So they will get gutted of all good salvageable parts including the T-roofs and them in unfortunately.

cerberus

Agreed

eseibel67

Careless? I take great, almost obsessive care of the F bodies in my garage. And they thank me by squealing with delight when I run them hard. F bodies were designed to be cheap fun cars, so that's how I'm going to use them.

That's what I do and I just can't imagine why I would be concerned about what somebody does to a car that I don't own.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, and that attitude is why our cars are regarded as trash...

I look at it this way. For every V6 car you guys ****** up and toss the engine out of so you can stick a tire-shredding V8 in it, the more the value of the stock V6 cars go up. Really, look at it... There aren't that many Iron Duke cars running around on the roads, and I really haven't seen that many in yards (maybe 2?). Yes, they're the ba$tard child of the 70's gas crunch, but they're kind of rare now and getting rarer. So, keep picking on my V6, but keep in mind the value goes up on it for every V6 car you toss the engine out of for a BBC or crush because it's "worthless". It may not quite be stock, due to the large number of parts I've had to replace due to PO's neglect, but it's not worthless...

Up north here, in the snow belt, we're lucky to find anything without rust on it, be it a V6 or I4. Yes, there are plenty of V8 cars, but you HAVE to know that most of them have been beat to death. That IS what the V8 is for, is it not? Yes, in the yard I started visiting, there are only 2 F-bodies (or were, if the 87 T/A has been sold whole), that weren't V6 cars. And they all (except the T/A that had arrived there the first time I went) had obviously been there for a while and were barely picked over (and yes, I'll be going back to get the dirty but MINT dash pad that was there!). Because they're V6's. Only problem with that is that the bodies are now shot due to RUST.

cerberus

Inspire and edify. That's all the point is.
To many of us, every f body matters.

'87IROCZOWNER69

iTrader: (1)

I want 'em....

Carlos773

iTrader: (3)

Why clone a Iroc? Such a waste to clone anything 3rd gen. Better off just customizing off your V6 into something better than any iroc that came off the floor. Not saying I wouldn't mind a low mileage Iroc/GTA.

Like Jason said, when that attitude of not caring for any thirdgen v6 or i4 goes away our cars will keep being undesirable to most. Hopefully with time and the less 3rd gens there are on the road the better reputation they will have. From what it seems right now they are very popular teen cars, and most teens just want to cheap out to keep them going and do unnecessary things them.

We will see later down the road, but right now I would rather take a V6 thirdgen than a Iroc/GTA. Do a budget 5.3 swap and drive it until the wheels fly off.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I think when we start seeing folks do superb restorations to Iron Duke and V6 3rd gens, and going out of there way to print up correct inspection stickers and such for them, (like the Mustang guys do, for example), then that's when the 3rd gen has arrived. But as I've said previously, many, many, many more will meet the crusher before that happens.

80schild

iTrader: (5)

My sister used to have a '86 Firebird with those same rally wheels. I don't know why but I have always liked them. I probably would have left that one stock.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Well, personally, I'm not going to go all out and get stock LCAs, track bar, and that retarded T5 mount (the $200 dual donut thing), but I'm going to make sure mine has all of the stickers I can get for it. I always thought that was the nastiest thing about the car when I bought it, that every sticker (except the VIN identifiers on the hatch, doors, and driver's quarter) was either gone or disintegrated... I got my V6 in a heap of trouble, and I'm going to bring her back to health. Even though I'm swapping to the 91-92 bumper covers and associated parts (the ones I had were aftermarket junk PO made worse and weren't worth trying to make right).

To each their own.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

But why would someone do that? You don't see that level of detail in base model 60's restorations, if they are even restored back to stock. The only interesting base model cars are the survivors. I wouldn't mind checking out an Iron Duke third gen, because it is unique. But to find one in a junkyard and spend thousands on a restoration - it's not going to happen. When you start seeing that kind of detail with restos to Irocs, Trans Ams and 1Le's, the cars have arrived. I am not sure how many Mustang guys are doing concours restorations on a 1980 Mustang with a straight 6, but there will always be more interest in the Mustang Gt that got restored.

Ronnie Brennan

This.. my man is priceless... Back when I was younger, just getting out on my own, I picked up my Camaro. Always wanted one. Now I did. Even though my parents scorned me telling me I was stupid for picking that car up. Even worse was when I started spending my hard earned money on it. Now they gawk in awe(ok maybe a little exageration ) when I drive in their yard

To answer your question..... To each his own, but for me... There is no end to the money I would spend on my car. Its not because its an investment in money.. but an investment in my happiness. Why sir do you ask?? Well sir... I am at total bliss when I cruise around in my car while people gawk and give me thumbs up when I drive by. Hell I even get "Nice Car Mister" from kids. Kids now are brought up with the ideal that a car is just something you have and are entitled to, and not something that you should worship!!! Its great to see young kids getting excited about old american muscle cars!!!

Ronnie Brennan

Soooooo many of the young generation is tossing in their hats on American Muscle and going for the tuner car! We need to stop the madness and get that interest back in american muscle cars before its too late

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Hey, take it easy. You can do whatever you want with your car. Sounds like it'll be nice when you're done.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

The point being, someone wouldn't do it right now. But in other communities, like Mustang for example, they are. Or at least trying to preserve nice examples of their cars. Are we?

Tell me this. Let's say someone found a creampuff, 50K mile, base model Firebird/Camaro. Do you think, that car would get saved, or do you think it has a 99% probability of being fodder for a drivetrain/4th gen interior swap?

Linson

i disagree. to the contrary, it is the willfully delusional attitude of people who refuse to accept the fact that a lot of 3rd gens ARE TRASH that allows this half-truth to perpetuate as common knowledge. in fact, the majority of 3rd gens that were made, were in fact throw-aways. a group of geeks that form a club and throw a parade based on the premis that Phantom Menace was the best movie ever made, is not going to convince people that it is a good movie, no matter how much said geeks believe in their hearts that it is. The L4s, 6s, and base models WERE THROW-AWAYS. the existence of those cars in far greater numbers than the good ones, is the reason that 3rd gens are regarded as trash - not people who want to showcase a positive performance image, and transform the negative into a positive. every L4 and V6 that is saved, should recieve a LSX, pro street, or other high performance transformation (i'm against cloning - cloning is rice.) People need to see 3rd gens out their kicking some ***. that is what will change the negative perception - not seeing L4, V6s, and 180 hp 305 F-bodies restored to all their original glory.

don't hold your breath. as i said, IMO, the people who are transplanting and transforming the V6s [and lower end models] are the ones who are doing the 3rd gen F-body image a favor. 45 years removed, even on a 1st gen, a 6 cylinder car is only valuble insomuch as it can accept a V8 transplant. no one is going to pay big money for an original 6 cylinder 67.

Linson

sounds like a perfect candidate to me. and i think that the car would be saved in the process.

cIaRmOaCrZo

ok so lets say (hypothetical) that 15+ years later from today, YOU and alot of other around the world have an eager itch to get a 3rdgen for whatever reason it is at THAT time (they already are in demand now fyi) but all you can find is a v6 or i4 (doubt even that would be available). what would you do, get the 6 banger that took a ton of effort to even FIND,,,,or just not a have a 3rdgen period. what im saying is, a low model 3rdgen is still better than NO 3rdgen..

Linson

^was your question directed at me?

kymmee

I "saved" the one I found. But all I hear is, drop a V-8 in it. My thought is that in the future, the 3rd gen V-8 population will be very abundant, and that a V-6 orig car will be scarce. Not necessarily worth a lot of $$, just something you never see.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Remember that running, Iron Duke, 5 speed, Camaro in that JY near you? I tried really hard to buy it whole from them. What did they want, $3-400? I called them a bunch of times and said I'd be willing to buy it. Instead they junked it.

What would I have done with it? I don't know, probably stash it away for later maybe. But I really wanted to save that one after you described it to me.

cIaRmOaCrZo

yes i remember that one, i too wanted it but could not afford nor have an extra spot for it. but yeah that car the last i seen it is just rotting away in yard completely abominated from the style of peoples picking. they ruin like 10 parts for every 1 they buy. but that car should have never been tossed in there. hell even the headliner hasnt sagged in it yet lol

cIaRmOaCrZo

yes, and who ever else feels the same as you do

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Well, what do think is worth more? An all original and well preserved straight six, '67 Firebird/Camaro, or the same car which has previously gone through an engine swap and various "custom" changes?

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Chazman - I think that if that 67 Camaro was turned into a Big block clone with all the correct pieces, it would bring more money then if it still had the straight 6. It might even be worth more if it was restomodded, and done right - say with an LSX drivetrain and late model brakes, and an updated interior.

Linson

okay, lets go bact to your hypothetical question.

IS a low model 3rdgen better than NO 3rdgen? i'm not sure that it is. personally, i would never set out to get just any 3rd gen. when i set out to get my current 3rd gen, i was specifically looking for an 1989 Formula 350 - and that's what i got.

my first car was a 3rd gen. ive had a fourth gen. i sold it so i could build up my/i prefered my current 3rd gen. i have a first gen. just saying, dont get the idea in your head that because it says junior member under my name that i dont know my cars. not accusing you of anything, but just nipping it in the bud if its there.

you'll get no argument from me that 3rd gens, in spite of the vast quantities made, are rare. you dont see them on the road, and they are not as common on eBay as 1st gens. fact: at this moment there are 226 1st gens for sale on eBay and 70 3rd gens. but if i were forced to buy a base model 305 or less, because it was the last F-body for sale on earth, you can bet i would LSX, T56, rear end swap, disc brake, suspension overhaul that bitch or it would be useless to me. i have no desire to have a slow, base model Camaro in my garage, when that space could go to an IROC, or a 69 Charger, or a 68 Mustang. and my original point was that when people start saying "holy ****, what was that [that just spanked my dad's 2010 Charger]?!!" that is when the unfavorable perception of 3rd gen F-Bodies will change. and that just aint gonna happen with bone stock TBI 305's, 6s, and Iron Dukes.

and by the way, i like what you've done to your car (not sure about the hood though) but yours is an IROC-Z, and you did all this:

• 383 4bolt main, 882 cast heads (ported&polished), comp cams 280H magnum hydrolic cam, holley stealth ram intake (ported&polished), 30lb accel injectors, kirban adj fuel press regulator, gnx high flow fuel pump, 58mm pro-products throttle body, tb coolant by-pass, hooker super comp headers, custom y-pipe, flowmaster delta force muffler, dyno tuned, corvette servo, beast sunshell, shift kit, 2500 stall converter.............312 WHEEL hp, 400 WHEEL tq

that's to your IROC. so, now youre gonna tell me that i (or others) should be satisfied with what a base model or 6 banger has to offer?

Linson

depending on the parts used and quality of the workmanship, yes, it would be worth a lot more.

HI85WH1

Lots of good thoughts and comments in this thread...

I've run the gamut of different GM cars and there are indeed cars that shouldnt be saved...

Major frame or structural damage by collision or rot is a killer for most unibody cars.... yes, you can straighten them, but will the car ever be the same?.

There is a '90 IROC 305TPI/Auto car with 127 ORIGINAL miles a block from my house. it is sitting on 4 flat tires and hasnt been started since 1990

Is it worth saving?.... its covered and the paint is immaculate... so I'd say yes.. unfortunately you'd spend a ton of money getting it back up and running.

I've trashed/parted many 3rd gens that had severe rot, firewall, a pillar, floor, framerails, etc. GTA's, Formula 350's, IROC's, Z28's, even a '91-1LE/B4C (it was already apart when I got it) not to mention all those "throw-away" cars people talk about... (That are good for parts)

Right now I'm looking at a super low mile 1992 B4C car that was never put into service.

Realistically, you can fix anything you want... the question is if it is worth it.... parts might be plentiful in some regions, but not others.

The more cars that go to the shredder make the remaining cars worth more.

cIaRmOaCrZo

i almost agree with that, BUT the way i see it, ALOT more people are into restomod (done right), so there would be a larger group of people wanting one so the market for one is larger. BUT an all original with correct engine, yadayada,ect may have a smaller market for but the ones who are wanting that particular will fork out wayyy more for the original one. so it boils down to demand, and certain buyers.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

I'm glad you think so. Don't forget that the rarer a car becomes, the more its value increases. And how is an engine swap into a lower end model doing the community a favor? Wow, another base model converted into a V8. Yawn. Especially considering that at least 2/3 of the thirdgens produced were V8s from the factory, that's just boring. People who are actual enthusiasts do everything they can with what they started with before they decide that they need an engine with more cylinders, not just yank the engine and toss it to the scrap heap and go bigger from the beginning. And then they probably want another car to start with as it would be a real waste to spend all sorts of money just to throw it away in an engine swap (plus the engine swaps aren't cheap going from a base I4 or I6 or V6 to V8 in most cases).

This would be where the real enthusiasts differ from the rest. You would take a 6-cylinder car and turn it into what you think it should be, a gas drinking monster. Enthusiasts would hold onto it and watch its value increase as more and more I4's and straight and V6 engines are tossed into the melting pots. Which is kind of why shows such as Overhaulin' bug me. What if said person getting overhauled doesn't want a V8? They get one anyways... I'd rather keep a car as original as possible unless the specific point of said car was to make it a track car and the original powertrain was trash in the first place inside a good body. And, just because it's a lower end engine doesn't make it trash--I'm talking a blown engine/transmission/rearend, or a combination of the above, not just "eh, let's dump that perfectly running but weak V6 and throw a 502 in there for kicks".

mans1

hi i think every 3rd gen should be saved. My one needs lots of work doing to it mainly rust issues because i live in the UK But it will be sorted out i am going to do it because i love the car it and thats way i see it if you love them save them

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Okay, I can go with that. How often is that done with 3rd gens? Very, very rarely. If that '67 was modded "3rd gen style", it usually wouldn't be a clone or done right - that's the problem.

Linson

put me in contact with the owner. i'm dead serious. PM me.

cIaRmOaCrZo

i guess our minds and perceptions are on totaly differant brain waves and thats fine. and as far as my iroc goes, i want it custom and done up the way iv always wanted one to be like, but i dont know if you noticed that i have 4 other ones and they ALL have their own purpose when in my possesion. i have a factory freak berlinetta with just a 6 banger, so thats exactly how im going to leave it. i have 2 shitty beater 92 rs's that have there own purposes too (ones a summer DD, and the other is the winter DD) and have another iroc with no title and it too will eventually serve a certain purpose. im not sayin to leave every low base model how its IF its already over 50% modded. there would be no point. but when you have one that is 75%-100% original, hell leave it alone or get what little it takes to make it 100% original. its harder to find a canidate for a factory freak restoration, than it is to find a restomod canidate...

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Why, what are you gonna do, put a blower and Cragar's on it? J/K

Linson

i AM a 3rd gen enthusiast. but it i'm an enthusiast of cool cars first. like most people, i dont have, need, or want 5 frikin 3rd gens in various stages of repair and whatnot. it sounds like a PITA. therefore, you can believe that i'm going to make the one that i've got is going to be the way i want it. and i would hope that others would feel the same.

Linson

dude...please. do i have to bust out pics of my Formula again ?

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

LOL

HI85WH1

He has no interest in selling it.... he let a 1981 GMC Cabalerro sit outside until the door skins fell off.

He has a 1st gen camaro too.. I think that got moved to his shop... but the IROC still sits in the same spot for the last 22 years.

Just as a kicker: Shipping a non-op car out of Hawaii means it goes out in a container... a 20 foot container is almost $5K to the west coast.

J-(Chicago)

iTrader: (11)

If we created them, we can surely fix anything on them.
That being said.....1 million of them out there needing 10 grand worth of freshen ups each...... comes out to negative 10,000,000,000

If you were to tow a million of them into scrap, you would be 480,000,000 million dollars richer.

It boils down to wants, needs, and willingness to sacrifice.

I've sworn to never get rid of a car before, but then again I've never had to carry it on my back through a desert, or tie it to my ankle while swimming across the ocean before either.

I see this,

And here's what comes to mind: Wow COOL, how badly do I want this......not badly
Do I need 7 cars instead of the 6 I have now?......nope
Am I willing to take money away from my other 6 cars, wife, kids and groceries to make sure it's saved? Kinda....but that won't be enough for what it will need. Just be a baby with 1/2 a diaper if I was daddy.

BUT to some 16-30 year old guy who always dreamed of doing one up, a car like this car should be saved for him. The only question is where to stash it for 5 years until you find that guy and make no money selling it to him.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Well, I'll tell you guys my perspective. I've driven many old cars either while volunteering to drive the Mecum auctions or just from personal experience. Generally speaking, the nicer cars are the unmolested originals or the frame off superbly done restos. The modded cars, not so much. They're usually not sorted, they feel like crap and don't get much at auctions.


I am sure, EVERYONE who decides to go the modded route, always intends that their car will be the baddest, most well done car in the neighborhood. The truth of it is, they mostly end up turning their car into a less valuable hackjob that the next guy needs to undo. There are lots of well done 3rd gens here, but be honest, most of them are not. Most of them were more valuable when the 55 year old lady, previous owner, was using it as a daily driver.

Linson

^and i just love this. YOU telling ME what an enthusiast is. YOU telling ME the difference between ME and a REAL ENTHUSIAST. i think you've been betrayed by your own BS, buddy. i think what you wrote speaks for itself. you dont sound like an enthusiast to me. you sound like some sort of investor. a banker maybe.

so, a poser like me, looks to buy a higher end model (not because of its pedigree, but because of the appearance and original parts (5.7 liter, WS6, four wheel disc brakes, positraction ect.,) and proceeds to improve on it and make it the car he always wanted - and drive it...fast...like i've buit it for. or a poser like me buys a lesser model, and proceeds to do the same, only having a bigger job ahead of him. but what a real enthusiast does is buy a BEATER, and stash it away, grinding his hands together as it's value increases. a real enthusiast never drives his car, just keeps it tucked away for years until it is time to sell, and reap that sweet, sweet profit.

thank you for enlightening me. i know now that i am not a real enthusiast.

Linson

Hawaii? ouch. too bad. but fwiw, i would have overhauled the engine along similar lines as my Formula: aluminum heads (Edelbrocks maybe) one up cam...would have kept the 305.