67tothefuture

If the guy is a swindler he will try to get everything he can out of the car. If he knows you really want it he will try and wait you out. My point being if he is lying about the car and the odometer has been rolled back you have to know what you are getting yourself into. The car is not worth what he is asking.

raymanism

You're right. If he can actually get someone to pay him the asking price, then why would he settle for less? If there is another buyer so be it. I told him to contact me if the car isn't sold (see what I told him below)
Yeah, definitely not worth the asking price. Probably worth half what he's asking if not less.

Here's my latest correspondence with him:
I could've replied by saying "what do you mean you have no answer, you claim that you bought it directly from the original owner, and that you imported the car into Saudi Arabia?!", but what good would that do me? This might be my opportunity... If no one buys it I could have it properly checked, and then offer him $3,000.

He hasn't replied to me yet... I won't contact him again. I'll wait for him to come to me. Maybe it's a good idea to start looking elsewhere.

@AmorgetRS Thanks for recommending that I negotiate with the owner before re-negotiating with my wife! It would've been too soon, and for nothing!

As always, I'll let you know if he gets back to me...


Camaroless Raymanism

67tothefuture

Well you basically caught the guy in a lie and confronted him and he has no answer, basically because he know he is caught in a lie. I again recommend staying away from the car at anywhere near $8500. If you can get the vehicle for under $5000, the lower the better it may worth the risk for you given the difficulty of obtaining this vehicle where you live. However, you have no idea how this car was treated, some mild restoration can make a car look nice. At >150,000 miles these cars can not be expected to be real reliable, especially not knowing the mechanical/maintenance history. Good luck, but proceed slowly and w/caution.

sonjaab

RUN don't walk away from this car!

Since your wife is the BOSS of your house you will be living with
"hot tongue and cold shoulder" for dinner for a LONG time!

But if its worth it to ya buying a car with a shady history and a pissed
off wife to boot.............BUY IT!

kizz

iTrader: (1)

well, on the bright side, now you have a brand new appreciation for Carfax! sadly, I think some innocent but ignorant buyer (without Carfax) will come along and overpay dearly for this car and only find out about the fraud later. from what I've seen, $3000, if the seller were to go for it, sounds like a good price even for that car, in a country where Camaros are hard to get, especially with that new law you talked about. sorry you got involved in that mess, but at least you did your homework.

raymanism

The only reason i would've paid the high asking price of $8500 for this car was for the low mileage. The guy did mention that he has friends who import cars for a living, which indicated that he might know a few dirty tricks; and obviously he does. No way would I pay anything near $8500 now. $5000 is the limit, and I won't even run after him. I'll wait till he comes to me (if he ever does).

I intend to be cautious. That's why I told him I'll need to see the car again, so I can take it to my friend's shop for proper inspection

Unfortunately for me, this is very possible because the guy is advertising his car as being something it isn't. But in reality who ever overpays will be the person who is truly unfortunate!

I just made a "wanted" post for a 3rd gen Camaro in a local classifieds site... Who knows, maybe something will pop-up.

webeeZ28

iTrader: (2)

How's it going Raymanism? Any update? Did you take it to your friend's shop for inspection?

raymanism

hey webeez28,thanks for asking.
unfortunately, I didn't take the car to my friend's shop. I e-mailed the guy telling him to contact me if the car isn't sold, so I can see the car again and make him an offer. he never replied.
at first I thought the car was gone, but then I saw that he re-posted the ad for the same price and mileage!

obviously he wants to try to get away with selling the car for a high price. i don't want to seem desperate, so i won't contact him if he doesn't reply.

i'll have to wait and see.

on the other hand, i posted a wanted ad for a 3rd gen Z28. who knows, maybe something will pop-up!

raymanism

Hey guys... I guess I am still hooked to 3rd gen f-bodies. Yeah, it might be the worst generation of f-bodies to be attached to, but what can I do?

Anyhow, I was chatting with a friend a week ago and he tells me that his cousin just bought a "91 Trans-Am. I was INSTANTLY envious of him! I started asking him about the car... It had t-tops (which I love), and was originally bought from a local dealer. He didn't know much else, so I asked him to send me the car's VIN.

I got it recently. Here are the details:
1
Country: USA
G
Manufacturer: General Motors
2
Make: Pontiac
F
Carline Code: F-Body
W
Carline Series: Formula, Trans Am
2
Body type: 2 door coupe (hatchback)
3
Restraint System: Manual belts (driver inflatable)
E
Engine Code: 305 ci V8 LO3
0
Check digit
M
Model Year: 1991
L
Assembly Plant: Van Nuys

So I kept on telling my friend how much I've wanted a 3rd gen f-body, and how I almost bought a '91 Camaro... So my friend offered to see if his cousin was willing to sell. The car owner is just 19, and he sort of bought the car behind his father's back. With enough pressure, I might be able to steal the car from him!

I'm not crazy about the teal color though. With my plans of fully restoring the car though, that shouldn't be a problem.

So anyone owned both a 3rd gen Camaro and Firebird? Any comments on how the cars are different/alike? Are the differences limited to the looks, or are they two completely different beasts?

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

I believe that a 91-92 Trans Am will only have a TPI motor, so you've probably got a Formula. The L03 isn't a bad motor, but definitely not what most would consider a performance engine. Just my

raymanism

According to wikipedia, the LO3 is a TBI engine, not a TPI. Since both formula and Trans Am trims share the "W" code in the VIN, how can I tell the difference between a Formula and a Trans Am?

I believe the T/A comes with the side skirts/ground effects, while the formula doesn't. Is this correct?

With regards to the engine, yeah, the LO3 is no performance engine. However, ANY engine from a 3rd gen wouldn't be considered a performance engine, even the 5.7 L98. I figure that I'll do an engine swap anyway, dropping an LS1/2 instead. So the cheaper the car the better....

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

Yes, the T/A has the sideskirts while the Formula doesn't. In 1991 the Firebird and Formula were the only two 'bird models offered with the L03. So if you've got a "T/A" with an L03 its probably not a real T/A. Not that it sounds like its a big deal, but just so you know what you're looking at.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I don't know where you decoded the VIN, but the Formula is an option package on the base model Firebird. So the VIN would be the same on both. In fact in 91 that digit only changed from a S if the car is a Trans Am. The W tells you it's a Trans Am. It's a 305TBI from the VIN which wasn't available on the Trans Am in the US. However, since it's an export the rules don't apply the same way. The 305TBI is painfully slow, an L98 feels like a rocket ship in comparison.

As far as owning both... The Firebirds are nicer cars. Everything is refined a bit more. The only downside is that the Firebird generally has more features that can fail, and the interior tends to wear a bit faster. Even the most beater Camaro doesn't usually have to worry about the console falling apart, or headlights that don't go up and down anymore. Everything else is about the same, the drivetrains are identical. The suspension on the Firebird is usually a little softer, but handles just as well as a similarly equiped Camaro.

raymanism

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also recall that standard 91-92 Firebirds and Formulas come with the horizontal square red bars for brake lights and a horizontal amber bar for signals. The 91-92 Trans Am on the other hand comes with come with a black grid on the tail lights which are either completely red, or with amber squares on each end for signal lights.. Is this right?

This is where I decoded the VIN: http://www.transamworld.com/3genvins.php

Regarding the LO3 being combined with a T/A, yeah I can see how our dealer would order the car this way... They'd get the car with a flashy exterior and a crappy engine and make you pay the price of a real T/A!!! I do find my self leaning more towards Firebirds than Camaros. I know about the pop-up headlights failing on the Firebird, but isn't there an aftermarket replacement part that fixes the problem? Also, what parts of the console usually get damaged in the Firebird?

One last question... What's the difference between '91-92 Trans Ams and GTAs? If you don't feel like typing, I'd appreciate a link that has some info.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Yeah, that website is wrong. Formulas use the same S in the VIN as a base model Firebird.

Technically, the base model Firebird in 91-92 was available with the same basic body as the Trans Am, the biggest difference was that the T/A had a louvered hood, wrap around spoiler, tail lights, and wheels. The GTA option added the GTA emblems.

Export cars regularly break the rules. For example, Trans Ams and GTA's for domestic delivery got tinted 2 piece tail lights. But T/A's for export had to have amber lenses visible so they got the normal Firebird tail lights. Export T/A's have been posted before on here with the 305TBI even though it wasn't offered in the US.

raymanism

Well, I found out that the car is actually black, and not teal as I thought (still didn't see it). This makes the car more desirable! The bad news is, my friend's cousin isn't budging... Looks like he really wants to keep the car! But I'll keep my eye on him!

Anyway, I've been looking at spare parts for the Firebird. I checked out yearone and classic industries catalogs, and it seems that they mostly skip the third generation! I plan on doing a complete frame off rebuild (eventually), so will I be able to get new replacement parts? I found stuff like side door moldings, headliners, floor mats etc... But what about the dash console, tail lights, bumper covers, year specific fenders etc? If I'm not mistaking, the 3rd gen camaro has many more aftermarket/OER parts than the firebird.

I'm a bit concerned that I won't be able to find the parts I want/need to restore the car to the level I want. Any input?

raymanism

Hey guys... Finally my friend was able to have his brother take pictures of their cousin's Firebird. Turns out it is a T/A, which got a lot of mediocre work done on it. BUT! MY GOD! THE CAR'S REAR END WAS RAPED!

I dunno what happened, but apparently the previous owner decided that it was a good idea to switch the original taillights for MUSTANG TAIL LIGHTS!

I'll let the pictures speak for them selves...

raymanism

Here are some more pictures...

I'll wait for people to comment.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The all black scheme kills all the definition of the car, and the hacked up back bumper and tail lights probably wont be cheap to correct overseas. At least the front gfx are still intact.

jj74sd455

i might take a lot of crap from my wife, but she knows i have a weakness for cars and leaves me alone about it. ive got 5 now and the only rule is i have to get rid of one if im getting another

raymanism

As I said, the car got several mediocre "enhancements" done to it. Zero decals/logos on the car, terrible attempt at painting the wheels black, over done tinting.

That said, apart from the rear-end damage, the body AND the ground effects, which usually get damaged, all seem to be in good shape. I haven't seen the interior yet though, but according to my friend, he didn't notice any cracks on the dash, and other than upholstery damage on the seats the car was in good shape.

To clarify, I'm thinking of doing a frame off restoration of the car, doing an engine swap (thinking LS3), converting it to a stick-shift with a T-56 and (wait for it...) building her as a semi-Knight Rider replica.

I don't know how most third gen Firebird fans here feel about KITT conversions, but I've been a fan of the show and third gen F bodies forever. The way I see it, is that this is a match made in heaven.

The current owner bought the car for around $2,400-2,500. Last night, I told my friend to tell his cousin (the owner) that I'd pay around $2,700 for the car. The guy declined. I told my friend to tell his cousin that if he was serious about selling, we can talk about the price, not wanting to pointlessly make higher offers. The guy replied that he WAS seriously considering selling the car! I know it's hard to put a value on a car that's in a totally different country. The value of a 3rd gen f-body differs drastically from the US to Europe to the Middle East. The previous 3rd gen I was looking at (the '91 Z28 which I started this thread with) was going for $8000. This car might be mine for much much less.

So I'm worried about fixing the rear-end to stock (doable, but could be tricky/pricey), and I'm more worried about finding parts (I have no problem ordering from the US) for a full restoration. Will I be able to find all the interior parts (forget about the KITT conversion for now)?

I've been talking to my friend about this car and a '92 BMW 850, which also suddenly became available out of the blue, almost in morse code in her presence. She knows we're talking about cars, and she knows that I'm thinking of getting one. I think she lost hope in putting some sense into me! Based on what you're saying though, I should be eligible to getting FOUR cars :P

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

Are we talking $2700 AMERICAN??!??! Thats crazy; Unless thirdgens are just plain RARE as hell there; Avoid that car. You can find cars like that (or hell, with the TPI motors) for that or less; I paid $1500 USD for my 1991 Z28 3 weeks ago and you could spend another $1000 shipping it over.

Avoid this abomination!

raymanism

I thought 91 Trans Ams/GTAs used the same tinted taillights in 87-90 Trans Ams/GTAs, and that the 92 Trans Ams came with taillights that looked the same, but split in the center instead and with the word PONTIAC in place of the screaming chicken. Did the 91 Trans Am have the PONTIAC wording as well?

This brings me to the same question I asked earlier. Doesn't GM or some other aftermarket 3rd party supplier provide replacement/restoration parts for the third gen Firebirds? Can I buy new taillights?

Yeah, I meant American. We don't use dollars here Sure it's crazy. If you read about the 91 Camaro I found, the owner was asking for $8,000! Fourth gens also go for around $2700, cause they're widely available. The third gens are becoming rare here, especially the 91 92 models (because imports stopped during the Gulf War). Firebirds are even rarer than Camaros. Add to that, a recently mandated law prohibits importing cars older than 5 years. So yeah. Not that many options.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

91-92 Trans Am's and GTA's all came with the 2 piece tails with the Pontiac logo in the middle. All other years and models came with 3 piece tails.

To answer your other question, some parts are still available from the dealerships, some are reproduced and available from places like Classic Industries or Year One. However, the 2 piece 91-92 Trans Am tail lights aren't reproduced, and they're hard to find. I sold a rough set a couple months ago for $250. The 3 piece base model/Formula tail lights (which were also used on some export T/As) are easy to find, but I'm pretty sure they aren't reproduced yet either.

raymanism

Any thoughts on the idea of doing an LS3 swap (with a turbo upgrade later down the road) coupled with a T56?

I want it to be a street car, which I'd drive on a regular basis. Won't be a daily driver, but won't be a weekend car either. I'd drive it daily, but won't take it to work cause we don't have shaded parking lots and it's hot as a **** here.

zachkuby87

imo forget both of them and keep looking for other options....

raymanism

Why?

I can find camaros, but Firebirds are becoming hard to find. Plus I can't import them.

Drew is right. I think this car is an easy fix provided you give it enough TLC.

Btw... Did you notice they deleted some replies?

zachkuby87

me myself i wouldnt trust the camaro just because the po is a liar i mean who knows what else is wrong if he lied that bad about the mileage ya know? the ta is really more of a personal thing i like em but im just no good with body work and those mustang tailights are just gross looking i wouldnt wanna fix half assed body mods someone else did because you dont know what they hacked up in the process and whats hiding underneath that paint.. i just wouldnt wanna risk having it turned into a bigger headache than i was looking for is all... i mean ya they gotta be rare there so its really a craps shoot... just me personally i would pass and cross my fingers and pray a decent unmolested 3rd gen came along...

raymanism

The Camaro is long gone. Right now I'm more interested in a T/A rather than a Camaro, that's why I passed on several Camaros which I recently found ever since I found the T/A. If I find a cleaner car, I expect it would cost $5000+. I have the intention of doing a body off restoration, so why would I look for a very clean car? The mustang tail lights will definitely go. From what I can see, they cut the rear bumper to install the lights. I'm hoping that's fixable. Worst case scenario, we get the firebird taillights installed by force (not necessarily the way they were originally installed).

In terms of the exterior, I like the ground effects and nose of the. 91-92 T/As. The wing is a bit too much though, and I don't like the two piece tail lights. Also, I prefer the turbo hood over this hood with the scoops.

So I'm thinking of changing the hood to a turbo one, probably swapping the T/A wing with a Formula wing, installing either 82-85 T/A taillights with a one piece blackout, or the 3 piece T/A/GTA taillights, repolishing the wheel lips and properly powder coating/painting the spokes black.

The car isn't a true T/A since it has the LO3 engine. So I'll swap in an LS3 if possible and a T56 six speed. I wonder if I'll be able to get a stick shift center console.

67tothefuture

If you are going to pour a ton of money into a car make sure it is what you want. If you want a Trans Am, wait for a TA. If you buy a Firebird and turn it into a TA that is fine, but if you go and sell it someday, it is not a TA to another person, therefor unlikely to get you money back. IMO.

raymanism

Got interior pictures a while back, not looking good...

raymanism

second batch

raymanism

Third..

raymanism

Fourth...

raymanism

Last batch...

What do you guys think?

Mark_Fbird85

It's not true that there wasn't a combination of TBI engine and T/A option on 91-92. It could be ordered from GM dealer, but only as Export vehicle (in Europe most of export TBI 3gens are from Switzerland, and Austria?). Here in Europe you can find many of such T/A's with 305 TBI under the hood (I have one ), in addition, these cars had also folding side mirrors (which look like crap imo ), base firebird tail lights, 2:73 Limited Slip differential with drum brakes and of course WS6 performance suspension package. All these cars have EXP rpo code which means Export vechicle, and VC5 - Labbel shipping. I don't know why GM decided to put slowest V8 engines to all European export cars, maybe it's because of emissions ?? the same was with Camaro Z28E which was offered in early 80s (82-84) in Europe - you could order it only with slowest LG4 engine while in US Z28 could have L69...
anyway raymanism - good luck in searching of your dream car!

greetings from Poland !

raymanism

Well guys, you didn't think I was gonna give up on this thread did ya?

So here's the latest nugget which I found... This car is not currently for sale, but I found the car at work (owned by someone I don't know) and I'm considering asking him if he'd sell it. I checked the VIN, and it's a 1991 Firebird Trans Am GTA with a L98 350 ci V8 and automatic transmission. The car has black leather seats, no T-top.

Body looks sound, all ground effects are there, no signs of rust that I can see. Mileage is around 120K+.

What do you think guys?

(three more pictures in next post.)

raymanism

Here are the rest of the pictures...

92GTA

iTrader: (11)

I would find out what the previous damage was and why it was repainted (missing GTA fender emblems).

Good luck, looks solid!

raymanism

Well it might simply be the fact that the car is 19 years old and needed a paint job, or the guy didn't like the emblems.

Knowing what you know about this car, what would you say it's worth?

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

It looks be in good shape and it even still has the front fender ground effects.

Is it worth it depends on the price, but it looks like a nice example of a Thirdgen.

92GTA

iTrader: (11)

Could be, but I would be skeptical. I also notice a chunk of the GFX missing on the passenger side right behind the fender.

I could give a U.S. market price in dollars. Presuming the interior is clean and original, and the engine bay the same, and the car has no rust, I would say $4K U.S. would be fair. If things are worse the price could quickly go down to $2,500-$3K.

Also with that many miles I would be getting ready for a transmission rebuild, after 100,000 miles these 4L60s are ticking time bombs lol. I just started on my 3rd. My original made it to 102K, my 2nd from there until 201K, and my 3rd I'm up to 213K on so I'm good for another 70K, maybe lol.

raymanism

Those are the prices I had in mind, but in this case, the owner isn't offering to sell, I'm offering to buy. So will these prices still attract a guy who isn't really thinking about selling? Add to that that the cart is rare here. Put yourself in the owner's shoes, what would you accept to give up this car?

The white '91 Z28 in the beginning of this post fetched around 8K.

Regarding t he mileage and the necessary repairs, I'm not too worried since I plan on swapping the transmission for a T-56 anyway.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I don't see how anyone in the US is going to be able to give an accurate fair price estimate of a car in Abu Dhabi... Obviously these cars are more common in the US then outside of the country. Even when you're dealing with cars in the US the price varies depending on region.

A fair price would have to be higher then a typical US price due to supply/demand, assuming there's a demand for those cars there.

raymanism

Honestly, was there ever real demand for the third geners other than back in the '80s? Us suckers who fell for this generation of f-bodies aren't that many :-)

For argument's sake, let's say the car's current value is around $2500-4000 if the owner was offering to sell it. In this situation, the owner is happily driving his car to work, then I come along and say I want to buy it. So the owner isn't particularly looking to sell, and I assume that I'd have to offer a little extra over the car's current value ($2500-4000) for him to be willing to let go of the car. How much extra do you think would make him consider selling?


Oh, one more thing... Abu Dhabi isn't in Saudi Arabia, that's like saying Vancouver is in Texas; close enough, but not quite ;-)

92GTA

iTrader: (11)

You should find the 92 Firehawk that is in the U.A.E. and buy it lol.

For discussions sake with the terms you mentioned, I would say add 15-20% and that should make them consider selling. For example, while my 92 GTA might be worth $5K, I would need $7K to let it go since I'm not looking to sell.

raymanism

See, I wish I could, I'd even find more options there (Dubai is a 9 hour drive from where I live). But we have new import laws that only allow the import of used cars up to 5 years old. :-|


This is what we call a target

IROC#1

GM sold 2.5 million 3rd Gens (equal to the number of 60's mustangs) so I would say they were a very popular car. Look at how many members are active on this forum to get an idea of current demand and interest. Look at how much you want one...They are fun cars! I think demand will only increase in the future.....

raymanism

OK, so I ran a few reports by Carfax, InstaVIN, CheckThatVIN and Auto Data Direct. Excessive, I know.

Carfax got more info, and the rest mostly reported the same and didn't include a lot of info reported by Carfax.

Here's what Carfax said:

=============================================

1) February 1993:
Mileage: 953
Source: Inspection Co. California
Comments: Vehicle inspected, Anti-theft device present at the time of inspection

2) December 1993:
Mileage: 16,731
Source: Auto Auction Pacific SW Region
Comments: Vehicle sold

3) February 1994:
Mileage: 17,673
Source: Arizona Motor Vehicle Dept. Riverside, CA (this is exactly what it says!)
Comments: Title or registration issued, Loan or lien reported

4) April 1994:
Mileage: 17,844
Source:
Source: Arizona Motor Vehicle Dept. Tuscon, AZ
Comments: Title or registration issued, New owner reported, Loan or lien reported

5) April 1995:
Source: Arizona Damage Report (here we go)
Comments: Accident reported, Vehicle involved in crash with another motor vehicle

6) June 1998:
Source: Vehicle Exporter
Comments: Vehicle exported from Jacksonville, FL and imported to Saudi Arabia (BINGO!)

7) October 1998:
Mileage: 60,000 (how is this reported AFTER the car was exported?!)
Source: Arizona Motor Vehicle Dept. Tuscon, AZ
Comments: Title or registration issued, Loan or lien reported

=============================================


All the three other reports only had item #7 from the Carfax report, mentioning the 60,000 mileage reported in October 1998. All of this is according to NMVTIS data. None of the three reports had any mention of an accident, title transfer or export.

So? What do you guys make out of this? I just don't understand how there were any title-related activities after the car was exported.

scottmoyer

As far as the Carfax accident report, I'd look into what was actually damaged. Someone hit my wifes car last week. The damage is minimal. It needs a new hood only because the front lip buckled under, the headlight was broken and front headlight/bumper cover mount that is made of fiberglass was broken. After a new hood, paint, labor and parts, we were given an estimate of $2200. The other persons is paying cash to fix the car, but I called my insurance just to make sure I was protected. Since then, I've heard that Carfax will be notified of this. Insurance companies make money by selling accident data to Carfax. All this does is really devalue the car that was damaged.

Now since our car wasn't really damaged bad, does this really devalue the car? Absolutely nothing damaged impacts the drivability of the car. We may try to have the hood repaired so that it will still be the factory original. Be wary of Carfax. every day I learn about another thing that is only about the money and isn't really helping the little guy!