okfoz

I want to know what kind of information you would like to see in a Book dedicated totally to Third Gens....

Apeiron

Accuracy, insider info, historical context with the rest of the market, year-by-year chronology of changes...

scottmoyer

I agree. The insider info would probably be best as we have not been privvy to design ideas, convertible data and whatnot. There is plenty of insider info for 1st and 4th, but the 2nd and 3rd gens need info before the people that worked them are gone.

david068513

iTrader: (2)

breakdown of all the RPO codes. How many models were made in which car, I know some models this is possible info to find. Also insider info from people that worked on the cars or designers etc. maybe pictures of the plants that were used back then. info on the structure of T top and vert cars. of course production #'s. there is so much I want to know.

Agent13

iTrader: (6)

Exactly.

92RS(real slow)

I would love to see a thirdgen book, year to year info lots of pics, every RPO code, and so on

Apeiron

And make sure that it explicitly states that there are no 1986 5 speed 350s.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

You have won the prize LOL!

ROBERTDMERRILL

iTrader: (1)

A break down of all cars and what options they came with. For example how many 84 trans am were black had 5sp and t-tops.... Something like that.

iroc_zz

Include what parts came/changed with each RPO code

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

+1

I don't know if what Apeiron meant this, but good reprints of magazine articles from the time. The show downs against the stang, high speed challenges, and just general reviews. I don't know how possible it would be licensing wise but it is fun to read articles from the time that say how great the cars where.

Another would be the "making of", like the History of the GTA and the prototype preproduction stuff. Anything that can be found/interviewed along those lines is always great reading, at least for me.

Accuracy is +1, though. And clarity, no "50 350's where produced in 1986" when that may be a half truth at best.

What might be good is a Myths section, that is kind of like a Q&A. 86 350s, 350 5-speeds, 1LE w/ t-tops and other accessories, 350 and t-tops, Camaros and their hush panels, and I am sure one could come up with plenty more.

If someone where to write a Thirdgen History books I always thought "gee, it would be nice of okfoz and scottmoyer got together and wrote one"

Apeiron

I like the "myths" section idea. Magazine reprints would probably be hard to get permission for, but at the very least a comprehensive bibliography could include references to them all.

kaptinkafeen

iTrader: (2)

There are enough coffee table books out there already!
In addition to what has been mentioned, close up photos of particular parts, decals, paint colours. similar to Dobbin's C2 and C3 corvette books. Nothing worse than tring to imagine what the 'item' should look like.
Just my
-Andrew

1991Formula350

Maybe in 20 years a book will be released on these cars. Let's face it, we love these cars and would like to read as much as possible on them.

I would love to know one person or group who came up with the 39,999 standard and the 49,999 upgraded Hawk prices back then, as he or they personally killed the line before it took off.

Pictures and tons of pictures, and I mean big and in color. I would love to see a couple of shots of each year in each color and option, like today when you go to buy a new car you can build it and see it online.

I get so upset sometimes at my car, but at the end I just want to read anything on them as I love them so much. Andrew

Apeiron

Good point, no coffee table book. There's nothing more boring than page after page of pictures of other people's cars. Pictures should give an overview of trim levels and exterior options in each year, with close-up details to illustrate points in the text. Oh yeah, and no customs.

kaptinkafeen

iTrader: (2)

Couldn't agree more - there are specific books for that genre too...
-Andrew

Apeiron

Maybe a page of color chips for each year, too... and upholstery options.

3rdGenWillie

iTrader: (1)

Maybe something like Jane's aircraft manuals( those are sweet books) but for 3rd gens. With as much truth as you can legally pack in it. info from people who actually put these cars together, not just from designer aspect. how bout all the GM specialty cars locked up in that warhouse they have? and some photos and interviews from the people at the testing grounds. concept cars and so on, and on and on.....some of the books put out about nascar and smokey unick really tell the hard true story.

Kevman

How to adjust the timing on a 3rd gen without damaging your hands. If that was in a book, it would make my day...

okfoz

I think adjusting timing might be outside the scope of the book...

roadthrills

I would like to see specific production # breakdowns by color, trim, etc., like in a Marti Report. Also original colors of every part for restoration purposes. It would be nice to see a parts interchange too I think. Such as '82 only parts, 82-84 parts, '84 only Aero package, 91-92 only parts, Firebird and Camaro common parts. Stuff like that so you know what used part is just like the one on your car.

t_towner

Love to see Players Challenge, IMSA and SCCA car information and how it tied into the special editions like the 1LE's, R7U's, Firehawks, etc.

Rare one off's, prototypes and muels. TTA Verts and other odd cars such as the FoxFire....

I know Pontiac still has a couple killer third gen's including the Yellow 92 Formula 1LE with Vin 0001.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

If you need a collaborator, let me know. Years of writing research papers in college and graduate school, and now teaching students how to go through the process, has made me a passable writer.

FrankieRider2

Sounds like a good project for you, John.

Loads of great ideas here.... in fact, I don't think I could add anything to the topic.

tpiselli

iTrader: (1)

Depends on the kind of book you want to write. For me, I've got two topics I'd like to see covered in depth:
1) The history of the 3rd gens developemnt starting in the 70's. Having read both Camaro: The Third Generation and Pontiacs: Third generation Firebirds and Trans Ams I'm looking for a lot more insight for the people involved and more design pictures and prototypes (preferably in color as well). Along with that I'd like to see more information on how the cars evolved through their run. Why did each manufacturer pick the changes they made (ground effects, interior changes) and what ideas didn't make it to production and why.

2) I'd like to see a step by step walk through on how a third gen was assembled. I mean everything form the first piece of metal that was stamped and what the second piece was that was spot welded to it to what was the last thing done on the assembly line. To aid with this I'd to see as many assembly line images a possible.

With the information from #2 I think a step by step resotation guide is possible. I think this is really lacking for third gens because, for me at least, there is always the question: Ok, I'm going to tear down and restore this car now, Where should I start? What's the first thing I should disassemble and then what's next?

Hope this helps.

okfoz

Here is a list, probably not exhaustive that I have considerd at least having a mention in the book, many of which would have more.
KITT (Knight Rider)
83 Daytona TA
84 Olimpic Camaro
82-85 Mecham Trans Am ( MSE T/A )
Mecham Camaro
82-86 Recaro
Gale Banks Turbo
Suntour - ASC
Togan, Carello
Bandit (Trans Am Specialties)
Bandit II (Choo Choo customs)
Johnson Phantom
Firefox I & II
California IROC
TTA, Firehawk,
84 Anniversary Trans Am
1LE cars, and some facts & fiction
Firebird XS
CAmaro RS 87 & 88
86 Camaro 350 (facts, fiction)
Pro/Am Firebird
82 Camaro Pace Car
Camaro ZF
Camaro SS (Choo Choo customs)
C&C T-tops
ASC Convertibles (Identifying Production and non-Production)
----------------------------------
F-bodies in Racing:
Trans Am
IROC
Firehawk
Players Series
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Correct decals, positions, stripe location, logos, emblems etc
Being able to walk up to a Third gen and if all correct identify what year it is (not as hard as you think)
Yearly changes
Prototypes, Origins, Where the names come from, IE Camaro is Friend I think in French.
----------------------------------
Performance Specs for tested cars from magazines If I get permissions.

VIN decoder, Engine Decoder, Transmission decoder. One thing I have noticed is even books for Pontiac use information from Chevrolet which is not correct, IE did you know that Most years the Firebird sequece number started with a 2xxxx1, Where Camaros start with a 1xxxx1?

Deciphering the manufacture dates for Fenders, COwel Tags, RPO codes Glass Manufacturers.
----------------------------------
Production nubmers,
Cars, Engines, Transmissions, RPO's Colors, etc

Sorry I will be unable to do a specific breakdown for Red 1987 IROCS with T-tops.

A Buyers guide for what to look for and avoid when buying a car.

----------------------------------
Convertibles
ASC, Autoform, Matrix3, CAR, Choo Choo Customs?, International Coach, Hi-Line Customs. etc...

need I go on?

Cadillac

Don't forget the Tojan.

My interest is mainly in the evolution of the car in the production years but particularly the design with the Firebird II and Banshee concepts.

okfoz

The Togan is on my list... one of those love it or hate it cars.

Really the Banchee concept in 1988 was for the 4th gens more than the 3rd gen. Although there was the transition years for 1991 & 1992 where the Firebird did use some cues from the 1988 concept, the front nose and the rear spoiler are mostly evident.

Did I ever tell you that I actually sat in the Banchee concept car... What an uncomfortable experience that was... The steering wheel is fixed, I had to squeeze my fat butt in the seats... The Steering wheel was Square to top it off.. I really do not know how someone could drive the thing... One of the most facinating things that people do not know is actually that car was designed and made by Cars & Concepts, you know the people that did the T-top conversions (C&C)... They also made the concpet car for the Dustbuster Minivans that GM made from about 1990 thru 1996...

John

roadthrills

And, you left out the '82 Indy 500 Camaro.

kaptinkafeen

iTrader: (2)

John, I don't think I saw a mention of the B4C package in your list - are you planning to 'lump' the police package in with the 1LE as a side note? Even a small refrence to the police camaro's would be cool imo. heck, I bet you could deveote a small chapter to these cars!
-Andrew

84redta

iTrader: (34)

and as many people have asked on here, how to appropriately identify a GTA or Iroc-Z, as the VIN is noting special to the model.

Also interested in hearing all the stupid little things like head-bolt design change in 88 (i think). Serpentine system replacing v-belts, first year for the custom door panels, body line changes and minor details, and all the stupid little things that made our cars what they were and what made each year a little more different than the last. Just things i'd like to see.

Be sure to update us if this book makes it out there
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side note, i have the 88 camaro sales brochure if some of the pictures or any of the information can be of any use. Just PM me and let me know what you need.

FrankieRider2

On second thought.... you listed a lot of models there, but please don't forget about us GTA guys and gals out here.

okfoz

THat was the short list guys.

I mentioned the 82 Pace Camaro its 4th from the bottom on my primary list.

The GTA, Formula, Trans Am, IROC, etc will all be mentioned. I have yet to really decide how to organize the book (important befor beginning) One thought was actually to cover each model seperately. IE have a chapter on the GTA for example, Describe the differences from year to year. IROC same thing, do a year by year shot of how the car changed. What the package consisted of.

the B4C cars will not be forgotten...

Ultimately I think I want a book that will be the end all book for any Third Gen enhusiest. Unfortuantenly each year is unique so I really do not know how feasable the project will be on the whole.

Actually the one piece rear seal was 1986, the centerbolt valve covers were 1987 and the Serpintine belt was 1988. What is probably the most interesting is the 1988 has a different serpentine belt nubmer than 1989 thru 1992. Although I think they are basically the same.

t_towner

Man, that's a tall order.

Is it worth having it broken down by year with a sub chapter for each model .....then having a quick reference at the back showing the models,years and how they differ?

Personally, I would like to see all the models offered for one particular year. I.e. here's what an 1989 IROC, TA, Base, Formy, Conv, TTA all looked like. Then separate chapters for specialty stuff, racing, etc.

krisb410

iTrader: (9)

Don't forget about the export only models and their slight differences.

84redta

iTrader: (34)

going along with export models would be the fold away "flap" mirrors for the GTAs...but why didn't the camaro or any other firebird get them...?

other interesting info would be the year or crossover year that they did the 26-28 spline axles ('89 IIRC), the gears that were offered and such, differences in WC and Non-WC T5s, little info on the many automatics that were used and things like that.

ur7x

iTrader: (2)

X2... "slight" LOL!!! there were serious changes from "US only" to even "Canadian cars"... how many CCC LG4 cars do you see North of the 49th? 1983/84's with plastic hoods on LG4s etc. How many 1983 L69's were made (not many) the use of the 200C into 1983/4 too.

Info on how to "tweek" some of the old stuff would be nice too.. CCC LG4 hack and Crossfire hack. Quadrajet cast numbers and Dizzy cast numbers too.

JeremyNYR

iTrader: (2)

I like the idea of organizing the book by year first, then discuss each model made that year. You can start with the planning and concepts that preceeded the 3rd gen and then each chapter is one year of production. Let's take 1984 as an example. You would cover any changes to pre-existing models such as the Trans Am. You talk about the specific aero package and the shortage of posi rear axles that lead to the creation of the WY6 package. After covering the standard models (base, se, t/a), you get into the smaller production/one year models such as the 15th Anniversary T/A.

By organizing it this way, you also give yourself the option of breaking it up into Early Years and Late Years 3rd Gen books if you wish. I think it would be great to have a reference like this. I'd really love the pre-production content if you could get info from the Designers, Engineers and Marketing people... and actual production stories from the Manufacturing Engineers and Assembly Workers.

But to answer your initial question... hell yeah I'd want a 3rd gen book! hehe

thebman007

Don't forget the 16 Tojan convert cars of 1987 that were Formula Firebirds for Knudson Automotive Inc. 4150 South 89th Street Omaha Nebraska 68127.
These were built by ASC then shipped throughPioneer Pontiac to Knudson for final trim package and sold through dealers. That's what I'm saying kapech!!

Mark_ZZ3

if your writing one .. I'll offer to author a chapter on the Player's cars and try to keep it limited to less than 1000 words. :-)

David M

I'd really like to get in on this book idea as well. Over the years I have taken
hundreds of pics of third-gen Z28's and IROC's. I should have every exterior
color combo offered. Also have interior and exterior shots of the Norwood assembly plant, and exterior shots of the Van Nuys plant.
I would also like to see a build breakdown of each year. Specifically '82-'87
Norwood vs. Van Nuys by month. I have several gaps and would like to fill them. Finally I have questions about the legal standpoint on what can be published and what cannot. The pics I have of the inside of the Norwood plant were not taken by me and I would not want to get myself or anyone else in trouble. Also publishing VIN numbers is a sensitive subject.

wildjeff

iTrader: (1)

Great topic, here's what I envision in a thirdgen book. I laid it out by chapters but I didn't fill in all the details. It should be enough to give you an idea. I did include a final chapter with customs because it is part of the culture but is not the focus of the book.

There should also be lots of pictures. I have included a spotters guide each chapter that will show specific details for specific years. That would be uber cool!

If you need another “volunteer” I can help with the 82-84 Firebird portion.


===============================================================
Chapter 1 - before the thirdgen

• a brief history - very brief

Chapter 2 – building and prototyping

• engineering, building and prototyping - many cool photos here

Chapter 3 – 1982

• Discuss design changes for the model year.
• Detailed Camaro
  • base model (include performance data)
  • Berlinetta
  • Z28
  • Camaro spotters guide (here you show the year specific logos and whatnot)
• Detail Firebird
  • base model
  • S/E
  • Trans Am
  • Firebird spotters guide (here you show the year specific logos and whatnot)
• special models
  • Indy 500 Z28
  • Recaro T/A
  • KITT
  • 82 Mecham Trans Am ( MSE T/A )
  • special models spotters guide (here you show the year specific logos and whatnot)
• options
  • Camaro
  • Firebird
• decoding
  • info on decoding
    • VIN
    • Cowl Tag
    • etc…
• historical notes and other interesting tidbits

Chapter 4 – 1983
So on and so forth following the pattern above
Chapter 5 – 1984
Chapter 6 - 1985
Chapter 7 - 1986
Chapter 8 - 1987
Chapter 9 - 1988
Chapter 10 - 1989
Chapter 11 - 1990
Chapter 12 - 1991
Chapter 13 – 1992

Chapter 14 – export

• information on the thirdgens exported

Chapter 15 - F-bodies in Racing

• Trans Am
• IROC
• Firehawk
• Players Series

Chapter 16 – the Thirdgen in print and the media

• either reprint or show thirdgen's in magazines, perhaps break them out by year

Chapter 17 - production data

• production data
• RPO
• decoding the build sheet.

Chapter 18 - Custom thirdgens

• show what people have done with their thirdgen

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Outside of chapter 18, that looks like a good layout. I'd personally leave Chapter 18 out completely.

84redta

iTrader: (34)

another interesting "outro" if you will could be how we were the basic guinea pigs for the 4th gen, and we can mention some of the things that we develloped and tested for them (350/6 speeds), new body sealants, structural things, t-top modifications, changing of the hatch to a full door, due to our hatch being excrutiatingly heavy (not that i've had to move a 4th gens), but ours with the bigger potential to break was changed later for 4th gens. Just like you would mention the concept cars at the beginning of us, you can just mention some of the testing they did with our vehicles. Just a thought. I agree if we start doing a chapter on custom thirdgens i think that it would get a little too far from educational and more towards a picture book. Just a little food for thought i suppose.

okfoz

WOw, This really has gotten a lot of attention...

John

1991Formula350

It would be NICE to see a photo of each Firehawk, aka the missing blue one. Andrew

92RS(real slow)

I like the layout wildjeff came up with but I would probaly suggest leaving out the custom section to

Apeiron

Not really, they all look the same on the outside.

scottmoyer

Based on the fact that there were 11 years of production, this should be broken into 2 books. one for Firebirds and 1 for Camaros. The cars are very similar in a lot of ways, but there are plenty of differences too.

Jon, for the Camaros, also add the Motion IROCs. It doesn't need much attention, but Joel Rosen can still be contacted for details regarding the quantity of the cars and possibly even production numbers.

84redta

iTrader: (34)

there is a lot of attention becuase in all the books we are casted out as the red headed step child, it would be nice to see a little dedication to our generation of cars in this day in age, not to mention a book that wouldn't be terribly hard to walk to someone's front yard and know what kinda car he was looking at, a buyers guide so to speak. Not to mention a complete source of information that is true and correct woudl'nt be a bad thing, because there are so many bad sources. I picked up a firebird book and a camaro book, and for 67-69, there were 10 pages at least on each year. for the 82-92 there was maybe 3 pages per year, but most were filled the same same copy and paste jobs of the year before. The actual "new" information pertaining to the year could actually be compressed to less than a paragraph total.

One thing i did enjoy a lot out of the two books i picked up was the fact that it covered what some of the "firebird convenience package 1, 2 and 3" were (and others obviously, just an example). Instead of the RPO code leaving you still asking for more, it actually gave you a meaning and details. I would HIGHLY suggest something like that, even if you wre to do an initial 82 RPO sheet of the more known ones, a couple rare ones, and then as each year goes by with new radios or interior colors, add for that year the pertaining RPOs with reference back to 82 for a bigger more general list.
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i second the two book idea. Would really depend on how many pages it was total if it could be included in the same bind, but definally i think seperate camaro and firebird wouldn't be a bad idea.