Hunnicuttz

iTrader: (1)

I have a 1992 Firebird Formula black with black interior and automatic transmission. I know they didn't make very many formulas in 1992 but I never see any black on black. Does anyone know where I can look it up?
Thanks!

okfoz

It really depends on how you look at it.

They only made 1,052 Formulas in 1992, but 1991 was virtually identical for all intents ande purposes. 1992 did have the benefit of better T-top seals (introduced around Jan 1991) and some extra bonding of the body panels to quiet the cars noises, which was probably to research for the upcoming 4th gens.

Depending on your Engine, IE a L98, and whether or not you have T-tops with a L98 would put it into a more Rare category.

JOhn

Hunnicuttz

iTrader: (1)

My car has the 5.7 350 and it has t-tops

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

IMHO, your car is rare and rather desirable. Less so then a Firehawk or TTA, but more so then 95% of Thirdgens made. 350 + t-tops when only a Formy when Crosslace wheels could get it.

Hunnicuttz

iTrader: (1)

Great! and one of the cool things is that it only have 89,500 orignal miles

okfoz

My personal Bias:
1) Firehawk
2) 89 Formula 350 Convertible
3) 91-92 Formula 350 T-top
4) 89 Formula 350 T-top

You got a keeper, if the car was yellow I might ask you if you wanted to sell.

JOhn

Hunnicuttz

iTrader: (1)

If I were to sell what should I ask for it? I have been thinking of getting something different. It has a perfect carfax! I also have 2 sets of t-tops the plastic and the glass ones and it has 5% window tint.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I'd change my order just a bit, but close

1) 1989 Convertible GTA
2) 1989 TTA
3) 91-92 Formy w/ T-tops
4) 1984 15th Anniversary
5) Firehawk

Firehawk falls so low because it doesn't have t-tops! Anyway, you see what your car is in company with.

As far as worth, post some pics and we'll be able to help more. I'll offer you 20 bucks right now

Hunnicuttz

iTrader: (1)

haha I would have to get at least $50 for it

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I have 1989 formula350 with TTOPS
Id like
1) 92 Firehawk T/A vert
2) 92 Hawk with TTOPS (the white one)
3)1989 Convertible TTA
4) 1989 TTA cloth HDtop
5) 91-92 Formy350 w/ T-tops
6) any 89 and up formula 350 vert

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Little out of my price range, then!

Hunnicuttz

iTrader: (1)

yeah I would love to have a 1989 TTA vert too! How much are they going for now, 20k?

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Being there is less then 5 (I think the highest number I've seen is 3) I am not sure what the market price would be... my guess would be 40k+ depending on documentation.

Hunnicuttz

iTrader: (1)

Wow, I didn't know they were that rare. 40k doesn't sound that bad if there is less then 5 of them.

Opher

iTrader: (1)

one of my good friends has a 92 Jamacia Yellow 350 TTop Formula sitting in his garage, an all original virign

okfoz

There were 3, one is in Mexico, one is owned by a guy in California and the third is owned by the guy who owns some of the Pre production TTA's, he is in Georgia I think.

The last one to sell within the last 6 months sold for $42,000, it has only 8,600 Miles
----------
To be honest if I was in a better situation with my wife, she is bringing up things she promised never to bring up, IE I own so many cars. I would be tempted to say that if and or when he ever wants to sell it I would be interested. Keep me in mind as by the time he goes to sell it I might be able to get it.

JOhn

Opher

iTrader: (1)

To be honest if I was in a better situation with my wife, she is bringing up things she promised never to bring up, IE I own so many cars. I would be tempted to say that if and or when he ever wants to sell it I would be interested. Keep me in mind as by the time he goes to sell it I might be able to get it.

JOhn[/QUOTE]

I told him I have first dibs on it, LOL. The worst part about the car is I found it for him. I would have bought it, but I didnt have the money at the time. I knew how rare it was, he had no clue. The guy we bought it from bought it because he liked the yellow color, had no idea what he had. I keep telling him to atleast drop it off at my shop and let me do a complete respray. Thats about the only thing it could use to be a ridiculously nice car.

okfoz

To be honest ANY paint from the Van Nuys Plant will need a repaint its the sad truth. If you have a VanNuys car and it looks good it is either because the car never left the garage or its been repainted. I suspect there are exceptions but the paint was soft, thin, water based and it does not hold up well under UV...

John

scottmoyer

Mine is still holding up ok! Knock on wood.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

LOL, wow, I didn't know that I would be even close to that accurate as far as # and price.

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

I honestly don't see how his car is rare! in the sense this makes my car worth alot of money. Your car is simply a 350 tpi car with t-tops whats the big deal nothing is special about your car that could command a high price on it simple as that.The only f-bodies I could ever see being worth much is anniversary, pace, 1LE, and performanced prepped cars and thats it. But even those really carry nothing in my eyes to make me pay alot for them. Afterall the majority were just decorative packages and thats it. Even the mighty 1LE better brakes and couple other things but when it comes down to it, it's probably only marginally quiker for deleted stuff and thats it. 89 pace car & firehawk are the only f-bodies that I see as rare and able to command a high price and thats it. Oh, and convertibles that have low miles

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

You are missing a key thing here, in 91/92 Formulas where the only F-body that could get a 350 and t-tops, and then ONLY if they are equipped with the Cross Lace rims. That is what makes it rare. That makes it desible to the right people. Is it worth 40k? No. 30k? No. 20k? I'd say no. However, it is in the higher end value wise of "normal" Thirdgens.

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

Oh in that case yeaaaaaa it is rare ... I just didn't realize it had the crosslaced wheels as well. definetly worth a easy 15k ..... I would certainly see a ebay war over that car now.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Sarcasm will get you no where.

Listen, there are 2 things in cars that dictate pricing: rarity (supply) and desirability (demand) . My guess is there are less 91/92 350 t-tops cars then TTAs. Got rarity covered. Desirability: Biggest engine, 2 year "body style" (some like, some don't), last years for the Thirgen, and T-tops. I think it falls into the desirable category. Is it worth as much as a TTA or Firehawk, no. Is it worth more then a 350 hard top or 305 t-top? HECK YES.

okfoz

From your name I am thinking you might be a pessimist.

I can see your point and personally I understand where your coming from. What makes the car special? nothing really, its like the late 60's camaro's and Firebirds, they made a Million of them in the three years of inital production. In reality by the time the mid 80's struck the cars were beginning to lose favor with the public, not that they were undesirable, but rather the price of insurance was so outrageous that most people decided to buy something more economical. According to the figures I have they made a total of 839,892 Firebirds from 1982 thru 1992, that is an average of 76,354 +-1 Cars built each year.

If you take the TTA, it is arguably the fastest Third gen produced, with the Firehawk being the only other contender. I think out of the box, no mods, the Firehawk was faster, But the TTA had more potental with some cheep mods to be a land rocket. But when you consider rarity here are some quick numbers for you for the rarest of rare on performance models: (with LC2 or L98 engine)

1 (1992) SLP Firehawk Convertible
1 (1992) SLP Firehawk T-top
1 (1989) PAS TTA Test Car with Hardtop & Leather Interior
3 (1989) ASC/PAS TTA's Convertibles
3 (1988) Trans Am 1LE
4 (1989) PAS TTA's Test Cars with T-Top & Cloth Interior
4 (1990) Trans Am 1LE
6 (1991) Trans Am 1LE
9 (1992) Trans AM 1LE
15 (1989) PAS TTA's Hardtop & Cloth Interior
22 (1992) Formula 1LE
23 (1991 & 1992) SLP Firehawks Hard top
24 (1989) PAS TTA's Hardtop & Leather Interior
26 (1989) Trans Am 1LE
39 (1989) PAS Hard Top TTA's
42 (1989) ASC Formula 350 convertibles
46 (1991) Formula 1LE
62 (1990) Camaro 1LE
111 (1989) Camaro 1LE
139 (1989) ASC L98 Trans Am & L98 GTA Convertibles
144 (1992) (US Sales) L98 GTA's
187 (1989) PAS TTA T-Top & Cloth Interior
190 (1992) (US Sales) Trans Am W/L98
200 (1991 & 1992) (ESTIMATE) Formula 350 T-top
700 (1991) Trans Am or GTA W/L98 (ESTIMATE)
403 (1992) (US sales) Formula 350's
478 (1991) Camaro 1LE
595 (1990) (US Sales) GTA W/L98
705 (1992) Camaro 1LE
1,030 (1989) Formula 350 with T-tops (a number was given to me from another owner who claimed he got it from GM)
1,321 (1989) PAS TTA T-Top & Leather Interior
1,321 (1991) (US Sales) GTA W/L98
1,900 (1990) Formula, GTA & Trans Am W/L98
2,415 (1990) IROC-Z Hard Top L98
3,038 (1992) Z28 Hard Top L98 (1992)
3,562 (1987) (Est Probably High) Formula 350
6,080 (1991) Z28 Hard Top L98
6,554 (1989) (US Sales) Hard Top GTA W/L98
6,913 (1988) (US Sales) Hard Top GTA W/L98
7,818 (1987) (US Sales) Hard Top Trans Am & GTA L98
10,793 (1988) Formula, GTA & Trans Am W/L98
12,105 (1987) IROC-Z L98
12,116 (1988) IROC-Z L98
12,370 (1989) IROC-Z L98
13,041 (1989) Formula, GTA & Trans Am W/L98

Note that my estimate is based upon the typical number of T-top cars to Hard top cars for Every year about 50%. In reality I think there were fewer than the 200 for the 2 years mentioned considering that the option combination was only available in the last part of 1991, and all of 1992.

So In compairson of the performance models it is considerably more rare than most everything with only 15 other models being more rare (813) cars which might be more desirable out of a total production of 839,892 Firebirds... I think its unusual enough to consider "RARE"

Note: After looking at the list the rarest 292 Cars were not even made by GM they were all outsourced to some other company to modify the cars. The Rarest Actuall all in-house GM built car would be the following:

Edit (This does not include the 1LE models as NOT all of them had the L98)
144 (1992) L98 GTA's
190 (1992) L98 Trans Am's
200 est (1991 & 1992) Formula 350's W/T-tops
403 (1992) Formula 350's
595 (1990) L98 GTA's

John

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

I am not a pessimist ... not by any means .... I'm just saying if he drove by I'de think cool a nice firebird .... and not give it a second thought. Why, because there is nothing special about it looks like every other firebird out there .... Quite simply a rare firebird is (A) firehawk (B) pace car (C) convertible (D) one with lowwwwww miles ..... that is all that justifies a higher price and considered rare ....Rare is units built is what the factory only builds. such as pace cars were making this many and thats it .... they are special in the fact you can not get that motor in anything else. His car is just a garden variety F-body with a 350, nothing more nothing less and worth no more then maybe a 1,000 more then a 305 car. But by you saying his car is sooooo rare he thinks it's something incredibly special and worth tons more. He has high miles and thats one thing nobody wants.And what is a LC-2 firebird?

Hunnicuttz

iTrader: (1)

I have high miles? I have 89,000 on my 1992, it is 16 years old now. The adverage car drives 12,000 - 15,000 miles a year. 89k on a 1992 is LOW miles buddy!

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

No low miles is like this guys iroc at under 15,000 .... miles averaged a year don't mean it has low miles .... it still has 89,000 miles on it what part of low miles does that fall under? it doesn't matter if you put that on in 1 year verses 20 years it's still 89,000 miles of wear and tear!In short LOW MILES is LOW miles no way around it.

Hunnicuttz

iTrader: (1)

That is an incorrect statement. I am in the car business and if a car is 1 year old and has 17k miles, we call that high miles. if it is 2 years old and has 17k that is low miles. When you are looking up the values of cars, they will even give you a value reduction because of high milage and that is based on how many miles PER YEAR the car was driven. Since my car has 89,000 orignal miles that means that is was only driven an adverage of 5,600 miles per year which is less then 12,000 per year so we come to the conclusion of LOW miles.
Some one that drives a car 17k a year usually takes less care of a car then the person that drives it 5,600 miles per year. So there is a lot more value to a low milage car. I'm not saying that my car is worth Thousands more then if it had 200k miles but there is a difference and the difference is prob only about $500-$1000 but that is still a difference in my book.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

LC2 = RPO Code for the 3.8L Turbo Motor, aka Turbo Trans Am.

I will reserve further comments.

Hunnicuttz

iTrader: (1)

I never said I wouldn't trade you

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

See thats what I mean thats just another word salemen use to justify high miles LOL ... but it only average 10,000 miles a year so its low miles! so this subject is pointless .... 89k is wear and tear it doesnt matter how long it took to put on it. why whats they life span of your typical drivetrain 130,000 miles and at that point you can count on a trans rebuild, engine work.whats 130,000 minus 90,000 .... 40,000 so probably car has what 40,000 miles of dependable use, where as this moderators car has what under 15k do the math ....89k is alot of wear and tear on a car.miles based on year is just a sales pitch. you have a high mileage car!

okfoz

Let me start with a POSITIVE, you are correct to a point, yes I agree that a T-top Formula 350 does not appear to be anything special. I lookeed at Firehawk #1 & #26 around 1999 and I did not think they looked very special either. Matter of factly one of the biggest detractors for me with the 1984 & 1989 Pace cars is they were White... I do not like White or Brown on a car usually. But that is my preference. You also state that if you were driving down the road and you say "cool a nice firebird" THat basically applies to ANY car made from 1967 thru 2002, since they made so many of them. Its only when you get out of the car ind inspect the 1969 Base Camaro that you would discover that it has the aluminum block Special 427... Those cars /from the factory/ had the dog dish hub caps, no emblems to identify them as being "Special" So I can see your point. In the same vein if I drive by TTA at 55 Mph if it does not have the decals (which were NEVER installed at the factory they were always DEALER installed) I would think "Nice GTA"... so I can see your point.

One thing that I think you are correct on right now as we speak a Formula 350 with T-tops is not particularly special to Most people. The general public look at it like another regular car, people on this board however know the distinction as a particularly unusual car, from the thousands of members only a small handful have one.

I found it funny that the LC2 I used you were not aware that was the motor that you have in the car under your name... Another thing, according to the information you state Turbo 350 Transmission, IIRC the TTA originally came with the 200R4 Transmission.

John

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

That is laugh out loud funny, considering you have a Trans Am with a Turbo 3.8 in it? How did you miss that after all these years?

I understand you're not driving a real LC2 car, but come on... You didn't know?

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

Mine isn't a pace car! It also doesn't have a pace car engine in it!Mine has the older 3.8 turbo is all. Hence the turbo350.

okfoz

So you have the Buick Turbo GN Engine?... your fogiven...

John

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

No .... a 4 barrel 3.8 turbo

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

You're running a hot air Buick?

Why haven't you posted pics in the engine swap section????????? I LOVE IT!!!

Have you got any 1/4 mile times yet?

Sorry, off topic... Yes, I think that Firebird is pretty rare...

but Ramblers are rare, too, and they aren't worth anything because of it. I say drive it and have fun!!

scottmoyer

I have to agree with the statements being made about low mileage. The books really only give you mileage credits when the car is less than 5 years old. Once you get past the loan value of a used car, then the low miles statement is usually just a sales pitch. Low miles to collectors is completely different than low miles to a car sales person. I have traded cars in with "Low Miles" and been given a small credit for that. I then watch as the dealer puts my car on the lot and asks ridiculous prices because it's such low mileage. These are newer cars. Collectors very rarely send a collectible car with low miles to a dealer for resale. Book value on my IROC-Z with low miles is 100 more than if I book value the car with 100k miles.

Just an FYI, NADAguides recently upgraded my car to a high vlaue of $8200 from the $3400 of last year.

NowTheBadNews

iTrader: (3)

It's a draw through setup. sort of resembles a pontiac 301 in how it's turbo is.No it's not been to any track but prior owner said it could run with 305's like the crossfires. Thats the era this car was modified in.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

This is really all a moot point.

Third gen prices are almost at rock bottom. You can't give these cars away. No one wants them. Hence the changing face of thirdgen.org over the past ten years.

If thirdgens were in high demand like 1st gens, then maybe a 350 t top car with cross lace wheels would be something that would fetch a little more money.

The reality of things is very different though with things like LS1 4th gens competing for market share. Most car guys don't look at thirdgens and get nostalgic. Right or wrong, to this day they are associated with poor performance and m u l .l e t s.

It's going to be a long while before prices start to climb again, if they climb much at all. Look at late second gens for a comparison.

To sum things up. Your car may be relatively rare but being rare doesn't mean its equally desirable. With interest in thirdgens at an all time low your pool of individuals that would lay extra cash down in the name of rarity is diminished significantly.
Supply and demand... little demand, still a relatively ample supply. This will slowly change as thirdgens meet their doom. I think the demand will more or less remain the same but lack of cars will start to slowly inflate prices.

okfoz

I think this is where your wrong, and here is why...

Nestalgia is based upon your age, when the poeple now buying 2nd gens were teenagers or in their 20's is when they wanted ones, these people are now old enough to get on the nestalgia boat. In the 80's the Japanese invasion was just getting started, but there was nothing from them to really catch the youth markets attention, they had the 300Z & ZX, Acura NSX was really introduced after this era and still out of reach for most people. You are correct insofar as the values are at rock bottom, its the BEST time to buy because of it. You do not buy stocks when they are at their highest, and you do not want to buy a car when it peaks out.

Back to my point. The third Gen was really the LAST generation to really have the market shared with only the Mustang, in the 90's and thru 2002 not only did GM have to contend with Ford, they had Japan coming on strong with their versions of muscle. If you want to knwo the truth possibly the 4th gen will suffer from lack of nestalgia more than any generation because of this. One of the trends tha we are seeing is younger people are no longer looking at American Muscle but have turned to the Tuner cars like the Handas the Toyotas, and cheap inports. The third gen ended prior to this coming on strong.

As for Values, look at NADA and the values between 1985 and 1990, you should find a huge DIP in 1988 as of today, next year it will be at 1989. Our cars ARE increasing in value and book values are projecting it.

IF we all gather around and stop asking nothing for our cars then everyone who wants one will HAVE to pay more for it.

JOhn

GTAfanatic

iTrader: (3)

I have a chance to buy a 89 GTA conv with a 5.7, its black with the black top and tan int. It also has 60k miles
what do you think i should pay?
and should i get it.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

As long as it is in 60k mileage condition (good body, good interior, good top, etc) I'd pay 6-8k for it.

GTAfanatic

iTrader: (3)

here a pic
having trub

GTAfanatic

iTrader: (3)

pic
thats betta

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Looks like it has been sitting a while. But I don't see any body damage or anything, so I think my price still stands.

GTAfanatic

iTrader: (3)

i offered 6600

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Hope you get it :-) That is my #1 dream car.

Cadillac

Good read. I give this thread a

I don't see many verts in Johns list (other than the ones he owns).