gary sanders

This car is in the PONTIAC VALT,it is a 1992 350 tuneport 5 speed. It was built by GM to find out if a 350/5 speed would hold up to years of abuse.Now it never was a production car,but it was built by GM.It has twin turbocharges also,it is the only one GM built,it was rated at 600 horsepower,the twin turbochargers are small,to keep horsepower down to 600 hp.I found this car on the internet some 5 years ago. Ive seen the Thread that was closed about GM never building a 350/5 speed tunport car,but they did, they just didnt put it in production.It was built to run in the 200 mph race that a magazine was doing at the time,and it did hit 200 mph.It was officially built to gauge how well the third-gen chassis held up under extreme power levels.
So,GM did build it!!!!
Im only the messanger,dont kill the messanger,lol

http://www.yearone.com/enthusiast/ar...s/blueside.jpg
http://www.yearone.com/enthusiast/ar...ges/blue34.jpg
http://www.yearone.com/enthusiast/ar.../blueturbo.jpg

zerogsx

GM built many 350TPI/5m-6m cars. They were for testing and not available for purchase for various reasons. When was this ever a secret or some newly discovered information?

Another one I remember is a white 92 Camaro without a spoiler with a L98 and ZF6 with aluminum heads that was being tested for Heritage/25th Anniversary models (instead of just the stripe package it ended up being). It was shot down for being too expensive to produce/not profitable.

Iroctopless

Yeah. This isn't news. There were many varied kinds of prototypes that never made it into regular production for both Pontiac and Camaro. This is normal to all car manufacturers R&D (Research & Development).

okfoz

Well this is where we all get off the point...
1) YES GM did Authorize 350 cars to be mated with a Manual transmissin in a third Gen, AND they were available to the public... Firehawk anyone?
2) The Blue car you have there is one of the FireFox cars, I believe Firefox II (might be wrong) I can buy that it was for structural research as third gens share some components with 4th gens, the tests were probably intended to see where the cars needed improvement. Much like the late 1991 & all of 1992 weatherstrips used on T-tops were an improvement and the design characteristics were utilized on the 4th gens. Or thinking backwards they were probably designing new strips for the 4th gens and discovered that it worked well so they engeneered similar pieces for the third gens. The point of the lock is NOT that the argument that they NEVER made any (I did not write it) I thikn it lies more so with the fact that the 5 Speed & 350 were NOT available to the Public for sale as an RPO.
The Heritage Camaro would probably been made very similarly to the Firehawks in 1992, and they went over well, with only 25 units made it was probably apparent that the demand was not there for the price to make them. Chevrolet would proably have never redeemed their investment into a short production run. I think the Firehawk darn near Bankrupt SLP for the research and then to have only sold 1/10 the projected sales. (They wanted 250, got only 25)

JOhn

zerogsx

Sure, the Firehawk is another example.

Although I was commenting on cars as they rolled off the GM assembly line not being available with 350/manual drivetrains as an RPO combination. Firehawks were Firebirds delivered to a third party (Ed Hamburger/SLP), modified, then shipped to Pontiac dealers to customers who special ordered them. GM didn't take over the production of Firehawks (or SSs) until well into the 4th gen.

To break it down into simplest terms-- of course GM made 5m and 6m L98 FBodies (for testing). How else would they have determined that they didn't want to go with that combination if not through extensive testing and beancounting? The T5 of the day couldn't reliably handle the L98's torque and the ZF6 was too expensive to justify. I don't recall any GM tests using the T56 in the thirdgen but they probably did that too.

Guest

I believe that car posted above is a 6 speed not a 5.

gary sanders

I was just showing it was posibale for GM to build one,yes it is the FIREFOX 2,and it is the only PONTIAC built that way That wasnt destroyed,Firefox 1 was destroyed.
In the other thread that was CLOSED,no one spoke of this car!!!!
So i gave it a few words to share it,excuse ME for trying to help the 3rd gen people be aware of this car,and over half of the people that posted in the other thread,said GM NEVER BUILT A 350 TUNEPORT 5 OR 6 SPEED CAR!!!!
KEY WORDS,when in fact they DID!!!! AND NO WHERE IN MY POST OR IN THE TITLE OF MY POST DID IT SAY IT WAS BUILT AS A (PRODUCTION CAR)
EXCUSE me FOR NOTICING THAT,AND reading THE POST,NOW shot the messenger,so many are quick to do that!!!

F&Ybodlover

That's the same TDM technologies Trans Am I read about back in 91 in road and track

zerogsx

Maybe I take the info you posted for granted as common knowledge, sorry.

I'm not seeing where someone said you claimed the car you posted to be a production car. Your post clearly says it's not.

I don't know what other thread you're referring to but for you to be as defensive as you're coming across I'm sure it was a good one. I hope your day gets better.

gary sanders

Its all good on TGO,Im not made or offended,just wanted to be helpful,sorry if I posted something that was posted before!!!

zerogsx

Firefox 2 (or Son of Firefox) was Jade Green with a C4 ZF6 and IRS.
Firefox 1 was a black 89 GTA with a 328 L98 and ZF6 (pic toward the bottom)

The blue car you posted is not a Firefox. It's one of test/concept Pontiac turbo Firebirds. There was a red and black single turbo and a blue twin turbo.

edit: I don't know if TGO lets members link to other thirdgen sites. I can edit it if needed.

auto_cran

Interesting. Thanks for the info on the FireFox cars, Gary! I didn't know about them.

While I always wished GM would have offered the 3rd gen F-Body with the 350TPI(L98) engine /manual transmission combo, the 350TPI engine was no stranger to the 6-speed manual transmission. In the 89 - 91 Corvette, you could get the L98 with a 6-speed. Even in 85, when the L98 first appeared, it could be had with a manual (the infamous 4+3 manual).

Too bad they never put theses combinations in the F-Bodies....


Chris
----------
1989 Pontiac Turbo Trans Am #760 (1890 miles)
1988 Chevrolet Corvette 35th Anniversary #1941/2050
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
1983 Delorean DMC-12
1986 Toyota Supra MKII
1985 Kawasaki Eliminator ZL900

gary sanders

I have so much information about 3rd gens,Even I make a mistake,I couldnt rember without looking if it was or not,sorry ,mark that 1 for TGO,0 for Gary,lmao
Off to the 3rd gen library,to READ,

Mark_ZZ3

That heritage prototype was only recently sent to the scrap heap. 2004-ish time frame. Sort of a shame they did that ... but I guess they only can keep a few of the prototypes. That one was a vette spec L98, with a different cam, headers, prototype runners, vette 6 speed, and the 1LE parts. It was just a show piece.

GM made lots of prototypes. Recall seeing a convertable f-body in 1986 pace the races. Lots we don't know about too.


Mark.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah a 6speed L98 would be awesome in a IROCZ or GTA but that combination would run as fast as the vette if not quicker and GM cant have the camaro/firebird outrunning their flagship vehicle

gary sanders

I always calLed a IROC and a GTA (POOR MANS CORVETTE),you are correct,GM didnt want anything to out run the Corvette,AMERICAS SPORTS CAR!!!
I guess thats why us 3rd gen people build them with 350 and 5 and 6 speed,because GM would not!!!!

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Why would GM wait until 1992 to build a 350 TPI with 5-speed to see if the T5 could hold up to the power levels?

The debate is not about whether GM made 350 TPI thirdgens with T5 transmissions. The debate is whether GM made 350 TPI thirdgens with T5 transmissions and sold them to the public. The answer is no, they did not.

okfoz

Not to burst your bubble but any of the cars that would have been made with a special drivetrain would have been made originally as an existing model and then modified by GM Engeneers. It would not be a case of have the car made that way at a factory rather a car would have been special ordered by an Engeneering department to be delivered with STOCK equipment and then modified for testing. Thus why there are no 1986 350 cars with a VIN to verify their existance, they were all MODIFIED AFTER their inital production.

Aso for the SLP issue, GM NEVER made a SINGLE Firehawk, they were all done by SLP AS were the SS camaros to my knowledge. SOME of the cars were later modified by GM with a 427 in 2002, but the design remained with SLP. AS were the WS6 cars which were done by SLP until 1997 and then ASC did the WS6 cas starting in 1998 thru 1992. ASC did all of the convertibles from 1987 thru 2002 for the F-line.

The fact of the matter is that the car above was NOT a factory optioned car as it seems that some have assumed. The car was modified by GM AFTER its inital production to test or to showcase technologies, which may or may not have been intended to be available in a future model. Structural vehicle tests, engine reliability tests, Specialty "Concept" vehicles etc. are all a part of GM's ongoing evolution. Some cars are simply toys where an engeneer wants to prove a point, or research some aspect to a design and see the ramifications to implementing an idea. Some things are not as obvious as you would think. A test with a Twin Turbo car may not have had anything to do with the feasability of the twin turbos rather it may have been a test to see how the car would act with that kind of power under a certain condition.

In simple terms there are seveal types of cars that GM makes:
1) the most common is a Production car,
2) Test cars: (test Mule) To see the feasability of an aspect in the car. Usually a production car is used and modified to research an aspect of a design.
3) Prototype: Similar t o a Concept vehicle BUT a prototype is a car which is intended to be produced, it is closer to a Production
4) Specialty car: A car which is not intended to be released but is modified for GM as a showcase car to display a new technology, similar to a Concept vehicle, but not as var gone.
5) Concept Vehicle: Cars which show a concept or a charactistc which Might appear on a prodction vehicle.

The names may change but that is basically how they stack up, someone out there might actually find something wrong with my list but So What you get the idea.

THis is exactly why the locked thread is locked.