hey guys heresa random question but, ive read some stuff and aparently its rumoured tht some thirdgens before 87 came stock wth dana 44s. is there ne truth to ths?

 

No thirdgens came stock with a Dana 44. (I'm not considering the Firehawk to be stock.) It was available in the GM Performance Parts catalog and some dealers may have installed it before sale.

 

Yeah, it was a HD service part available over the parts counter....it was offered with either 3:31, 3:92, or 4:09 gearing and went for about $800 wholesale (circa 1986). I put one in my '83 Z28, and it even came with the rear disc brake rotors. My car had the J65's, so it made for a really easy swap. The differential housing even had the torque arm mounting pad cast into it.

Hot Rod magazine used to have a "Down the Road" feature every month that gave a "heads up" about upcoming parts and options on cars in the early/mid 80's. That's how I usually found out about stuff like the Dana 44, the 140mph "Z28" speedometer, the Camaro export headlight covers, etc, etc

I've also seen the Dana 44 listed in later (early 90's) GM Performance Parts catalogs without the rotors....

 

The catalog still has service parts for the Dana 44 even, just not the rear itself. Rumor has it that SLP bought all the remaining stock and sold it off.

 

Damn i was hoping there was a part # for it.

 

There is, but it doesn't help because it's long discontinued.

 

44 would be a hella good upgrade for these and other smaller cars since the 44 is 8.5" ring gear diameter

love to get one for the 82.

damn

 

If you really want one, they're available from Currie, Strange and/or Moser, but for the price you could just get a 9".

 

The Borg Warner 9 bolt beats the Dana hands down, dont look any harder than you have to.

 

And you base this on what?

 

The Woodard Schedule......


The Woodward Schedule was a test where Pontiac launched the car by side stepping the clutch at 4000+ RPM and power shifting thru every gear at redline.

They ran about 30 B/W axles through 200 Woodward tests without a single failure.

The Danas broke in this test.

The extra duribility comes from a four pin differential, the weak link in rears are the ones with only 2 pinions.

Elimination of the C clips and the use of tappered roller bearings at the wheels are additional strong points.

Its stronger (7-3/4 ring gear and 28 spline axels) than the chevy 26 spline, 7-5/8 ring gear.

Its stronger than a 8-1/2" Dana 44

 

Interesting, is there documentation on this?

 

I broke 3 9bolts

 

Yeah Id also like to see the documentation that the BW axles are stronger than the 44's

 

High Performance Pontiac, December 1984 Issue.

Article titled "'85 Trans Am" Page 18.


Also see The best of Hot Rod - Volume 7


http://www.difftechnics.com/9_bolt_strength.html

(I have the original article on this one too)

 

One of the most common reasons a 9 bolt fails is due to excessive backlash between the ring gear and pinion (usually due to worn out pinion bearings or improper pinion preload) or between the side gear and the pinion gears (usually due to worn out brake (ie posi) cones). Either of these usually results in broken gear teeth.

Source:

9Bolt.com

 

I was looking for actual documentation, not magazine-reported heresay.

 

Yep reputable publications are in the market to spread false and misleading information. Thats how they stay in business for years.

I will see what I can dig up, so far any additional info will take some effort

In fact show me a slight hint of disputing info, something that provides any defense to what I have presented. (Sorry, I broke 3 9bolts is weak)


Just the mechanical data provided should be convincing enough. Dimensions and design criteria, its all there, undisputable facts.

 

Magazines publish rumors. How many fifth-generation Camaro pictures have been in the magazines lately? How many of them are based on fact, not rumor?

I'm not saying it's not stronger than a Dana, I'm just saying I'd like to see the details. So far I haven't seen anything.

I have a Dana 44 and it's good enough for me. First, it's not going to break under my setup and second, if it does breakI can walk into any one of a dozen driveline shops locally and walk out with new parts. If I was worried about it breaking, I'd probably put in a 9" because again, parts are available for it.

 

Fair enough, I know GM believed in the 9Bolt but it just cost too many kangaroos and it was dropped.

I could scan the articles, but you need better proof, something that will be forthcomming.

 

i donno if you realize this but i could write (and have written) magazine articals.

there is no knowlege test. there is noone other then some readers that double check most facts... esp ones based on "tests"


you type somthing up on the PC. take some pics and sell it to them.

thats it.
its not even like writing a book where you go thru several revisions.


please. dont believe everything you read. you should KNOW incorrect crap is printed all the time.. heck, look at every 3rdgen artical a peterson publication has printed in the past 5 years... theres somthing wrong with almost every one... atleast one proven error.
granted, you have to be a expert on these cars to spot them, but they are still printed errors.


want to talk about misleading? heres some nice proof... go look up the artical they did on TBI and then look at what they admitted after whats-his-face on here wrote back.

 

I pushed the carrier out the back of the housing and through the cover and broke both the axles :lala:

I break a lot of stuff so its no big deal to me!!!!

7000 rpm neutral drops with slicks are common with me


I work in a performance shop and install on average 3 sets of gears a week so i can set them up right

 

BREAK IT! BREAK IT! BREAK IT!

 

Of course crap is printed, you just have to be smart enough to draw your own conclusions and wade through the BS.

The engineering facts alone (structural strength and design geometrics) are enough for me. Untill somebody presents even a theory of why a Dana would be stronger than a 9Bolt I will stick to my guns. All I have heard so far is that Im wrong but nobody has stepped up with tangible data to prove it.

I have designed for manufacturing in 3-D and have a pattent with my name on it, does this make me an expert on rear axles? No but the technical descriptions and statements in the HPP write up
are indisputable and thats what I strongly base by conclusions on.

 

And all I've seen so far is "the engineering facts say it's stronger". I haven't seen those engineering facts yet.

 

Your post doesn't strike me as one written by an english major...

 

You're the one that claimed it was stronger, so why should we try to prove otherwise? Where is written documentation of the woodward test? The line "The word is this rearend is stronger than the Dana 44" doesnt really do it for me. I own both a 9 bolt and Dana 44 and everything on the 44 is beefier, I mean everything. Axle shafts, bearings, spline count...of course something to consider is the fact that there are quite a few versions of the Dana 44. In this woodward test did they use GM 1/2 ton offset front 44s, early 80s CJ 2 piece shaft 44s, Isuzu Trooper 44s, Wagoneer 44s, TJ 44s, Dodge 1/2 ton 44s, Corvette IRS 44s, ZJ alum. center sect 44s, Firehawk 44s ? Im sure there are more, those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head and ever single one is different(even each vehicle with a 44 changed little things through production years on the axles) whether it be bearings, axle shafts (1 piece, 2 piece, diameter), yoke setup...

 

The Dana in the fake test was a 8-1/2"

It was a PMD payoff to HPP, they are in bed together and still are.

Look at the latest write up about Bruce Hawkin's Firebird according to HPP it has a "1LE Rear end"

I wrote the Editor asking him for proof of the test, why the hell would he care about some writeup done 20 years ago ?

I asked the bozos at 9Bolt.com, no response.

So I would have to leave it up to those who have ran both and trust your judgements.

I get a nice patch from the "true posi" (not eaton locker) when I want to show what a non peanut cam 305 will do. Thats all that matters.

I give up, you win !

 

haha sorry my fault, I should have said: "every single 44 is different; the only thing that remained the same between then is the ring gear size of 8.5 inches"

 

I think I remember also remember emailing 9bolt.com for documentation regarding the 9bolt since it's hard to find just about anything to do with the 9bolt and they weren't much help.

 

This isn't a contest. Maybe the 9 bolt is stronger than a Dana 44. Personally, I'd be surprised if it was, but anything's possible. It's not that nobody is prepared to believe you, it's that you've offered no substantial evidence to back up your claim that the "9 bolt beats the Dana hands down", other than a reported rumor in a magazine and a citing a test that you have no reference to. I would like to see details on this test, and the "engineering facts" you mention.

 

9Bolt Lite :

Four pin differential

Elimination of the C clips

Tappered roller bearings at the wheels.

The rear is rated @ 295 HP
(320 lb/ft)
It supports a GVW of 6041 lbs

Ok your turn, lets see what makes the Dana tick

 

Dana 44:

-Four pin differential

-Elimination of the C clips

-Tapered roller bearings at the wheels

-8 1/2" ring gear

I don't have torque specs handy, but I'll see what I can find. In the meantime drain89 has posted a considerable amount of information on the 9 bolt at the following link, including some comparisons to the Dana 44: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=239666

 

I take back the comment about 9Bolt.com:

The information I have found on this subject is posted at
www.diffsolutions.com and also from the 5+ years of abuse
that my 9 bolt has suffered behind my 500hp 427 BBC 1988
Camaro without a single failure. www.koolmeister.com I setup
my gears with a little less backlash and heavy on the toe
pattern.

Hope this helps
Miles

 

Anecdotal evidence is nice, but hardly makes for a convincing argument. I submit that my car has had a Dana 44 for 18 years without a single failure.

 

85 TA WS6, I don't know which is stronger the Dana44 or the BW9bolt, but I can tell you alot of people on this board think they need to change out there Borg Warner 9 bolts as soon as they throw a few bolt ons in. The 9 bolt from all accounts I have read is a very strong rear end and unless your pushing over 400 hp to the rear wheels, I wouldn't be worrying about it to much.

 

i know.

i suck at spelling. ever since i moved to the south, my grammer has gone downhill.


but im a damn good editor, and i can use a dictionary.


just goes to show you..... ANY idiot can get in a mag.....

 

Cool I can get in on this one :-)

Im not going to speak numbers and quote magazine articles, just what i know and I have seen :-)

A whole bunch of TTA's launching at 16psi on a trans brake on slicks runnin 11.0-11.5 range and everyone held their rears together for many many passes :-)

That should speak for 9 bolts living to some real power.

After the 11.0 barrier, seems the spider gears becamne the weak link as elapsed times dipped and 60 fts went inot the lowwwwwww 1.6-1.5 range. Up till that point the TTA has been an amzingly stout piece in the TTA's.

Gwettin my engine back soon for mine and I still have to go thru the rear end, but by next season the car will be Trans brake equipped and running slicks at the track, as I am expecting lowwww 11's(possible 10) on pump gas.

later
Jeremy

 

There's no argument that the 9 bolts can handle a good deal of abuse. Certainly they're stronger than stock 10 bolts. I want to know why they're supposed to be stronger than Dana 44s.

 

Well thats the whole issue, there isn't a doubt that the 9 bolt isn't tough enough to withstand 11 second 1/4 mile passes, but there isn't any real indication why it would be stronger than the Dana 44. Like I said, I own both a Dana 44 and 9 bolt rear axle and like I said, everything on the Dana 44 is bigger ie shaft diameter, spline count, ring and gear, spider gears, bearings(smaller bearings produce more heat and friction because of the lack of bearing suface)...and for the most part, bigger is better. The Dana 44 has been around since the early 70's in many forms (see my above post for a short list of various cars the 44 has been seen in) and unfortunately, the only American car was the 85-early 90 F-body which got to see the 9bolt so there's no hard facts to compare the two axles.

 

So you have to go to Currie to get a Dana44? It is understood that they are strong, but cost similar to a 9". Are they as strong as a 9"? I have heard that the 9" also absorbs more hp than others rears. How does the Dana compare in that regard?

Jason

 

Jason jrg77,
I'll make this short (off original topic).
I doubt the Dana 44 is as strong as the Ford 9". Nascar uses the 9", including GM cars.
The Ford 9" eats more hp for two reasons. Heavier turning mass (gears, axles, etc.), and to a lesser degree, pinion angle is a little low.