blue86iroc

iTrader: (2)

I have been trying for the past year to figure out why my car has the engine that it does...

I have a 1986 IROC-Z TPI. The VIN number says I have a 305. The block is stamped "5.7."

I should have LB9 heads. My heads have an L98 casting number.

I should have perimeter-bolt valve covers. My engine has centerbolt valve covers.

With the automatic tranny, I should have 2.73 rear gears. An RPO code states that I have 3.23's.

I've been cleaning up the wiring on my car, and some of it looks pretty tacky, almost as if someone had swapped engines. But then, there are wires that should have definitely been clipped if the engine was replaced, and they still have the GM wire crimps and GM reinforced electrical tape.

After posting these two threads, [1] and [2], I still don't have a definitive answer. It's either an engine swap or a 1986 350 test vehicle, one of only 50 produced. I can't get ahold of any previous owners to see if someone swapped the engine out. I want to know if any of the 1986 350's were sold to the public, and what are the odds that I have one?

RB83L69

The odds of you having a real 350 86 are so close to zero it's not worth considering. But not quite zero.

Anybody that's careful can swap an engine without clipping wires. I can't believe how many people actually leave pecker tracks like that all over their work, instead of just being careful. I have a 83 model car, that I myself have had several engines in and out of; it has every piece of ECM stuff on it right now; not one single wire has ever been cut under the hood. Not one. And those engines include several that were not computer-controlled, for which I removed the ECM harness and coiled it up and put it in a box, where it sat for 12 years. With zero cut wires.

Check your block casting #. That will tell you what the engine really is. Anybody can stick 350 heads on a 305; until you check the block, you can't know what it is. Period. The "5.7" is meaningless. Check the casting date while you're at it. I'd bet money it won't agree wih your car's build date if it's a 350 block. Then check the assembly stamping in the block on the pass side head deck behind the alt; I'd also bet that if it's a 350 block, the VIN stamped there won't agree with your VIN.

Gear ratios could be ordered. That has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

indy82z

iTrader: (5)

If the VIN says 305, it is a 305 car period.

I am still waiting to see a factory built 350 86 Iroc. I believe NONE were sold. Someone PLEASE prove me wrong....

WooHoo

Tom

TransamGTA350

iTrader: (2)

Well, did these 86' L98's start life as an LB9 and then get converted my GM, or were they L98's from the assembly line? If they started as LB9's, then the VIN would say it's a 305, but have a 350 that was not numbers matching.

indy82z

iTrader: (5)

I first of all do not believe any were ever built for public sales, but IF they were, they would not be converted, they would be 350 cars from the factory. No tricks were needed to drop them in.

I am sure this topic will get a lot of replies and others can clarify or dispute this...


Tom

NJITIROC

iTrader: (2)

i have heard that there were 50 built in 86 with a 350, none sold to public but they were built. i dont believe that.
i have also heard that GM's official records shows that one sole 86 Camaro rolled off the line with a 350 for testing/pilot/prototype purposes and was not sold to a regular joe schmoe. i believe that.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Your car has t-tops, so you can rest assured with 100% confidence that your car is not one of the 50 prototypes that had the L98. All of those cars were hardtops with no air conditioning and little or no other options. They were test mules only.

And as bad as everybody wants to believe that they made it to the public, the fact is that without EPA (and a dozen other agencies) certification, that couldn't happen. The 80s weren't the 60s. You couldn't get a COPO car with any motor you wanted just by flashing the green. Anything that left the factory had to be certified by a bunch of different government agencies & policies, and it would have left a paper trail a mile long. The fact is, if they made it to the public, we'd have proof.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Got any information to back that up? Willie and I have plenty that support the contrary.

406-Z

I ordered my 87 IROC from a local dealer in 87. I had a 86 Monte Carlo SS at the time that I had ordered in late 85 and wanted a Camaro really bad. I did reasearch the options I wanted and the 350 was one of them. I remember that the 350 was going to be a late 86 addition but it never got past some of the Federal Regulations for GM to build and sell to the public. There were some cars built (I think 50 was the number) but were used for test purposes and press cars only.

NJITIROC

iTrader: (2)

no actually i dont. thats why i said i BELIEVE . i was speculating based on what i have heard.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

In the 7 years that I've been following these boards and looking at thirdgens on car lots and in junkyards, and reading every book I can find on the subject, I still have not seen anything to confirm the 50 magical 86 L98 cars. The closest thing to any kind of proof I've seen is a magazine artical that talked about a Camaro test car with a 350 TPI.

If these cars existed, someone would have snagged them right away. It would be an enthusiast that would have them. We would have heard about them by now. They would have either come around, or been noticed at a carshow and ended up in a magazine by now. If these cars exist they've been around for 17 years. I guarentee we would have heard more about them by now.

I'm not sure where the 50 number comes from originally, but the reason you see it quoted all the time is because a guy wrote a Camaro Technical Database back in about 1994. He mentioned a possible 50 cars with a 350. That database was used in excerpts on every fbody site on the net. Its adapted and grown thru various writers and most versions still list the 50 cars. The version thirdgen.org is using was borrowed from another site and the last time I updated it I considered removing the 50 cars reference. Next time I will remove it. Its supporting false facts.

Even the tech data implies that these cars never existed.

Z28DJP1987

As far as I know GM did sell these 50 350 TPI car after testing to a gentleman named Mr Crusher who happens to be in the metal business. Since he took possession of these cars he did what he knows best, made small two foot square cubes out of them. Thats the whole story for the 1986 350 TPI cars. R.I.P.

kizz

iTrader: (1)

I find it funny how sometimes people are totally oblivious to the logical, obvious, likely scenario, and instead they choose to go hunting after fairy tales... like have you ever woken up with a neck cramp and ask yourself "oh man, that really hurts.. could it be that I slept wrong, or I need a new mattress? No way! Could it be that aliens surgically added an implant to my neck and it's messing with my nerves and I need to go to Roswell NM and camp out overnight till they come find me and fix it? Wow, I'll have to look into that! yes!"

What I'm trying to say is that if those mystical magical 50 cars ever existed, they would not be in complete and total hiding 18 years after the fact! Rare cars are either stored permanently by GM or destroyed very early on, especially if they are one-off prototype. But 50? No way GM is keeping 50 identical OBSOLETE test cars in a warehouse for no reason. They would've either been destroyed, IF they existed at all, or they would've trickled out to the general public. Other than Neil's video, I'd say these "50" cars either never existed, or they did exist and were destroyed / dissasembled right after testing. Also read what people said above, about t-tops.

There have been countless threads about this. a search would've found the answer.

Basically someone has swapped parts onto your motor and you don't have anything rare. Sad but true.

gt

billsfirebird

iTrader: (1)

My brother has an 84 camaro with a 350 TPI in it...and all the wires are intact!






We performed the swap ourselves and never cut one wire. I don't know why you would need too. Just adding my .02 worth....

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Drew, the number "50" comes from a few sources that long pre-date the Camaro Technical Database.

I don't have it in front of me, but I think Michael Lamm's 3rd edition of "Camaro, the Third Generation" mentioned them. That book was published in 87 and since Lamm was there, and was on a close basis with a lot of people involved with the development of the Camaro, I trust what the book says. So far I've found it to be by far the best resource of Camaro development information. I believe the book also mentioned why the vehicles were not available for release. If I remember I'll re-read tonight.

The autoweek video on this site discusses the L98 prototype, but doesn't mention the quantity.

blue86iroc

iTrader: (2)

I managed to check the casting number. On the driver's side of the block, all that is stamped is "GM 5.7LG." On the passenger side, the only part of the number I could make out is "14093" (AIR tubes were in the way). Regardless, an engine casting number with those first five digits corresponds to either an 87-91 305 block or an 87-95 350 block. It's safe to say that the full casting number is 14093638, which is the 350 block.

CamaroFreak406

Don't go overboard on this one guys. We all know that it will be asked again in about a month or two. Oh Ya, by the way I have a factory '92 350 TPI car w/ t-tops .


Later, Garrett

Krazzycowgirl

a girl friend of mine had a 91 factory stock 350 w/ ttops as well but after investagating that fact she found out that the dealershipped ordered it that way since the car came from cali.

Mark_ZZ3

If your block was meant for your car, then the VIN will be stamped on the block on the front passenger side, just behind the alternator above the waterpump mounting bolts. There is a pad there with the block build date, block code and the VIN. Pull the ALT off, and LOOK.

If it is a special 1 of 50 GM, then I would suspect NO VIN, and some odd block code that perhaps is a GM only testing thing, not a regular production block.

I would suspect that if your engine came from another car, then that VIN will be there (well the last 8 digits anyways).

Mark.

1991tealRSt-topGuy

ummmm, if the block is an 87, doesnt that answer your question right there?

Mark_ZZ3

It stands to reason, that GM would have installed the 5.7L motors in production cars, rather cars that were initially manufactured with 5.0 motors. Then the research divsion would install some 350 motors that were never installed in any cars.

You would think this might have happened sometime in the spring of 1986, so the blocks should have that date on them, or perhaps late 1985 corvette blocks.

Certainly a 1987 block does not fit the "story".

Mark.

blue86iroc

iTrader: (2)

I appreciate everyone's feedback on this. I will remove the alternator and check the numbers on the block.

GMTech

I don't have evedince to say "Yay or Nay", but I would have to agree with Jim85IROC on this one. EPA, CARB, and any other government agency that has anything to do emissions etc... would not allow it. If it had a 350 in it and was available to the public, then it would have to be certified, and have an emissions label to show it, and the label should match the VIN, so there couldn't be any "factory" 350 conversions.

Just an example of how much pressure GM is under about this stuff, Back when the '02 Yukons/Suburbans first came out, they had cold start drivability problems. I beleive I had one of the first ones, and GM sent a Field Engineer to come down and help us figure out why. Eventually, GM sent us a "test Calibration" for us to try. All hell broke loose when GM found out that we gave the vehicle back to the customer like that to drive. There was a whole lot of "red tape" to go through to get an EPA exemption just for that one vehicle for testing purposes on public roads. Then when it was decided that the calibration was fixing the problem, it then took several months to get it certified by the EPA for use in other vehicles w/ the same drivability issues.

I beleive that GM may have built a few as Prototypes for the purpose of getting ready and certified for an '87 Model Year launch and perhaps ONE might be sitting in a warehouse with all there other "goodies" but any other probably got crushed or used for crash testing. Just my 2¢

blue86iroc

iTrader: (2)

Interesting story, GMTech. There are two numbers on the engine block, "V0411SNB" and "2HN236121." After searching around on the Internet, here's what I've come up with.

V0411SNB
V - Flint, MI
04 - April
11 - 11th day
SNB - no entry, but "SNA" means L98, TPI, Firebird

2HN236121
2 - Pontiac
H - ?
N - Norwood plant (?)
236121 - Production number

Based upon these numbers, it appears that somebody swapped an L98 from a Firebird into my Camaro. Does this sound accurate? If that letter "H" was a number, it would tell me the last digit of the year it was produced. I don't know what a letter signifies. Any ideas?

GMTech

Actually, the "2" doesn't indicate that its a Pontiac. That stamping is the last nine of the VIN, so its more like this:

2 VIN Check Digit, used to avoid VIN fraud
H Model Year. This engine came out of a car built in 1987
N Plant Code. This car was built in the Norwood plant
236121 Production sequence number

So the engine came out of a car that was built in '87, so it looks like it was a swap done in somebodies driveway w/ perhaps a junkyard motor.

Probably not the answer you wanted to hear, but I hope it brings closure to your long search!!

blue86iroc

iTrader: (2)

Finally, my quest is over! Actually, I never posted this thread with the attitude that I was looking for lost treasure, aka an '86 L98. That possibility was merely another way of determining why I have a 350. Seeing as how I couldn't contact any previous owners and ask them about an engine swap, I figured that this post would be the next best way. I'm glad that I learned of those engine code numbers; I never knew they existed.

Thanks again to everyone.

MdFormula350

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=162777

1991tealRSt-topGuy

exactly my point

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Just another tidbit that might help here. The 50 prototypes used 350s with perimiter-bolt heads. All production L98s from 87+ used centerbolt heads. If your motor has perimiter-bolt heads, you can sleep at night knowing that your car isn't rare.

But... since you've got t-tops, this had already been established.

RB83L69

In the VIN part of the block stamping:

D = check digit from vehicle VIN (ignore)
H = 1987
N = Norwood
236121 = sequence #

IIRC they started at 100,000 for the sequence #s, at least I have never seen a 000,000 number.

So your motor rolled off the production line April 11 and was a 1987 car, so that would have been April 11 1987, it was installed in car sequence # 236121, which would have been the 136,121st car of that year, which makes sense for a car produced near the end of the year's production run.

Conclusion: your motor came from a car produced at the end of the 87 production run.

Plainly not a candidate for a 1986 350 test car. Definitely a swap situation.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Guys, I have an 89 with an L98. What if my car was originally an 86 that was left over and never sold. I it coulda been redone to LOOK like an 89. I'm gonna do some research and get back to ya.

We may have only 49 MIA.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

OK, I'm sorry about that.

This comes up all the time and I just get a chuckle out of it. No matter how many there were, it's safe to say there are none now. I can't see any feasible story about how one would even accidentaly leak to the public. If some top brass at GM pulled some strings and managed to get one into his own garage, he either still has it secret, or has made it public, and we'd all know it. Since we don't, it must be secret. What's the point? It's not all that fast, so it's not a performance thing. What's the point if you can't share it and flaunt the fact that you have it?

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

And think about this.

We're all thirdgenners, so this is a popular topic to us, but what about all the other rare cars?

I bet some "test" Monte Carlo SS's had the L98.
How about late 3rdgens with an LT1?
How about 96 and 97 LS1's?
I couldn't even guess how many test C5's had an LS6. Where are all these cars?
How about the 2 Pontiac "Firefox" TA's, with independant rear suspension? Hmmmm, some of you know, and others are saying.."what"???? Those kicked some a$$. Where are they? They had ZF 6spd's too. And what about the all the GM test cars? The Falconer ZR-12 vette? The few 92 25th annivesary Z28's with the 6 spd's.

Point is, we either know where they are, or they don't exist. There is too much knowledge on these boards and on ALL the car boards from Ford to Honda to Yugo. (maybe not Yugo), but you get the point.

The 86's are gone man...let it go.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Yup GM usually does that, they'll save 1 or 2. Maybe they saved the 1 from the MotorWeek clip.

Willie

iTrader: (1)

The 50 were not sold to the public. As stated before, they were used by GM for testing purposes and therefore, some magazines did run articles on it. In fact, MotorWeek (the TV show) had an episode on one along with a 1986 ASC converted Z28. This show can be found on this website. I have a copy of this show on VHS, and it's obvious the L98 car is an original 305 TPI. All the exterior markings indicate this. The A/C looks to have been removed -- the bracketry for the compressor is still on the car. Obviously, these cars were not intended to be sold. I'd even bet the VIN states an "F" for the engine code (305 TPI), but can't confirm this.

Another point that solidifies what I believe was stated above, the topic of the government mandates on fuel economy, i.e. "gas-guzzler". In "Camaro, The Third Generation" by Michael Lamm (Third Edition), it states in part:

(quote)
.... in early 1986, Chevrolet announced the availability of the 350 V8 in the IROC-Z. That came as quite a surprise to everyone. Under the original plan, this engine, dubbed L98, would become available in early March of 1986.... The L98 would use cast-iron cylinder heads..., be restricted to F-Cars without t-tops, without air conditioning, but with the 700-R4 transmission and 3.27 rear axle (9-bolt). According to Russ Gee, approximately 50 running L98 Camaro prototypes were built during model year 1986, but this engine didn't make actual production until the 1987 run went on sale on October 1986. (more>>)

So Russ Gee and I got together and decided how to go about it. Then we ran into problems. The L98 was supposed to ride in on the fuel-economy label of the Corvette. We had a little margin in the Corvette's fuel economy so it wouldn't be a gas-guzzler, and we thought we were in good shape with both cars. (more>>)

But then the pre-production aluminum heads for the Corvette began to develop cracks, and that delayed production of the L98 almost a half year. It delayed it long enough so that cast-iron heads became standard for the high-volume 1986 Vette engine. The cast-iron heads did not carry the same fuel economy margin as the aluminum heads, and if we'd wanted to put this engine into the Camaro at that time, we would have had to reopen the books on Corvette fuel economy, which we weren't going to do. Therefore, we had to embarrassingly say, Yxes, we know we announced the L98 for March, but we can't make it. It was a fuel economy issue that would have placed the Corvette into the gas-guzzler category.
(unquote)

This information is enough for me to conclude these cars were never sold to the public. Also note above it states "prototypes". Prototypes are NOT sold.

kizz

iTrader: (1)

That last post would make an excellent reference point for future "Do I have an 86 350?" threads. Would make a great FAQ entry too.

b4z

Just to add my 2 cents.

I remember the article on the '86 B2L car in Autoweek.
I went straight down to my dealer to order one and was told that there would be no '86 IROCs with 350s built for 1986.

I bought a 1 year old '85 IROC instead.

It seems that with all the people on the internet talking about these cars, why aren't there any around? I have never seen one nor has anyone else.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

What the dealer told you was correct. They were made in 87 instead.

89' RS/blue

all of the 86 IROC 5.7L camaros were built for testing, only fifty. These were never sold to the public, however it is possible that one could fall into the hands of the public. Although if your VIN says it was a 305, then someone must've swapped engines. Because the VIN don't lie

BikertrashDude

I think they all went to the crusher.
anyone ever see a test mule of any car get sold to the public????

Mark_ZZ3

Your correct about VINs, but I would guess the 350 mule cars were built off the assembly line. So they would have taken 305 cars and swapped a 350 in place. In order to run these cars, there would have been a emission decal on the car stating they were exempt from emissions or something along that line or that they were a test vehicle.

Mark.