Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

How does it run? Do you have to run 91/91 octane all the time or it pings? are you running the distributer hot? I way advanced? If you can run it with iron heads, than the 68CC or the 65CC (mine ) will deliver the same CR, HOWEVER since they are aluminum lets say you are static at 10:1, with AL heads you will be at somewhere around 9.3:1 due to the heat disappation factors of AL.

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

well im running 7 advanced and everythin is good, but for performance and stuff i always run 91, im pritty sure that the motor is around 9.3 now cus the guy i bought it from was not trying to make a big performance motor, so im guessing its right about what it would be stock, im thinkin that your heads would be way over kill on my motor, i would like to have around 10to 1 cr tho

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

If you are running 9.3 on iron heads do not get ANY Aluminum heads unless you plan on changing your pistons immediately OR you are buying a SC at the same time. Your CR will be WAY too low. Sure you could run 87 octane, but with about 70hp loss...

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

yeah i wish i knew, im just guessing, so what if i got some aluminum heads then had them milled to 58cc or somethin would that work?

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

WAY too much milling on AFR heads, HOWEVER you could pick up a set of Aluminum L98 heads (corvette heads) they can be ported and make a lot of power and you will have your CR. Willie is running them and doing 11's on a SC'd 305

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

yeah i was goin to do that but i have to pass emmissions in idaho and it would be a big pain to try to put a hole in the header to get some air up into the manifold to run egr, my header dont have any air tubs, i took the air pump off, so there went that idea, pluss i was pricing it out and by the time i buy some l-98s and port them then buy the scuggen dickys egr parts, i could just get some trick flows or afrs or edelbrocks, so here i am now trying to find the best head for what i need and want to do!

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

Ok I am kind of lost. If you removed the smog and you have headers with no AIR tubes, than it wont make a difference between the AFR's and the L98's. Yes you need to make some modifications but Kevin91Z has the AL L98 heads and he passes Cali smog every two years. And there aint no smog check like a cali smog check

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

well im goin to run only the egr sensor and the valve, not the airpump, i was told that i could pass without the air pump, so i would have to run a tube off the headers for the al l-98s and my headers dont have any and i realy dont want to cut them up to make it work, plus the price of having the heads ported, i dont know i guess i need to get some prices on porting heads and go from there, how much did it cost to have yours done?

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

Just the porting itself ran me $600. Ported and matched to the extrude honed intake. This didnt include rebuilding them or the parts. I would ask some racers around you, any machine shop can say they port but others can do BAD things to your heads.

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

well i didnt think i still had the address but i rote the guy that i bought the motor from and he said its 9.65:1 cr, so now what do you all think?

8Mike9

This discussion should move to the Tech Forum.

FWIW, the only way to know for sure where you will be (CR-wise) is to look at the piston and determine:

Piston type(flattop/dished, etc), bore size, valve reliefs and where it sits in the bore at TDC. Once you have this information you can then calculate your expected CR with the headgasket you will use and desired CC size of potential heads.

IROCZ4BD3

iTrader: (4)

I'd be interested in a set of 195's if the price is right.

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

AFR 180cc heads with a 68cc Chamber. The price for these
will be $1237.99 plus a $45 shipping flat shipping rate for this GP.
this is the price i just got for the GP

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

The most popular head based on the e-mails weve
received from thirdgen.org is the 195cc L98 head. This 100% CNC'd head has a base price of 1237.99 minus shipping. Shppingfor this GP will be flat rate $45 and orders will ship 6-8 weeks after we place the order with AFR(as per there required build time). so now who wants them? i was hopin the price would be a lil better then that!

KagA152

iTrader: (5)

still waiting for a price on the 210

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

ok so overall, we will be saving 42 dollars, over purchasing something through jegs or summit @ 1325 dollars no shiping charge.

i think ill pass. thats about a 7% savings from any big retailer.

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

not sure how long that price will last but im sure it will be a feww weeks anyways, since the price just got our it will take a few days for it to get passed to eveyone, then we will have to find out who is and who is not goin to get then, and then go from there, personly i dont think im goin to do it. im to undisided on what heads i want, and if i want to spend the money right now.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

if i could get at least a 10% gp discount, i would be interested but otherwise no, im still kinda waiting to see what barry G comes out with, with his 3 valve heads

KenV

JDsPerformance has the L98s (part #1038, NOT the full CNC #1094) for ~$1273. Shipped. I've dealt with Dave at JDs before, and would order without hesitation.

HTH, peace

K

84-350berlineta

I was expecting a better discount. You can buy direct from AFR any of their products. I sent for a catalog and price sheet from them a couple months ago and if you buy direct, you can get the 195's P/N 1038 for $1324.00, unclear on wheather shipping is included or not. So we only get $50 off for buying at least 10 pairs of heads, maybe more. I manage an auto parts store in Milwaukee, so I think I will call AFR and see if they can give me a better deal on a group buy. I will call them Monday or Tuesday depending on how busy we are at work.

8Mike9

84...keep us up to date on what you find out.

84-350berlineta

I did not have time today to check, but I did recieve an e-mail from precision that sounded a little better than their previous offer. I e-mailed them back after they gave me a quote the other day, and I told them that I thought a lot more people would be interested if they lowered the price to at least 10-15% off the regular Jegs/AFR "racer's net" price of $1324. First they e-mailed me back saying they were just not large enough of an account of AFR's to be able to offer a larger discount and thanked me for my intrest, but then they e-mailed me again and said that they will give us 10% off the lowest advertized price we can find. They say that AFR does not include shipping, so they won't either. Does anyone know if Jegs includes shipping? I havn't ever ordered anything from them.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

not shipping, but a 8 dollar handling charge.

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

Shipping will be about $30 or so

84-350berlineta

I called AFR today and asked them about pricing for a larger purchase like this. They said that if I wanted a discount, I would have to become a distributor, which my shop is ready to do as long as they give us a better price than we have been offered so far from Precision. AFR said they would send an application and the requirements for distributorship to the shop. Hopefully I will get them faster than it took to get a catalog from them (a week and a half). I will let you all know as soon as I can!

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

ill patiently wait ^_^

IROCZ4BD3

iTrader: (4)

I'll be waiting.No rush just gives more time to save.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

Are NOT allowed by AFR. New companies applying for dealer status with our company should have been made aware of this when they spoke with one of our Sales Rep's over the phone, however, in the event it was overlooked it is clearly spelled out in our "Distributor Guidelines" that all new perspective dealers are required to sign and return to AFR. There are many reasons that this policy is implemented by AFR, a good portion of them to protect our large existing dealer network that is already in place. If any of you are still interested in purchasing our product, feel free to check our website (www.airflowresearch.com) where you will find an extensive list of authorized AFR distributors, the names that are boldfaced are stocking dealers that try to keep our product on the shelf.

For all intensive purposes this GP is closed as AFR will not be accepting Precision Speed's application to become a dealer (or any other company that is trying to run this or any other GP).
We regret any inconvenience this may have caused you, but it has been our "standing policy" and I'm sure many of you were already aware of this as it has been brought up on numerous other message boards and forums. If any of you would like to contact me personally, please feel free to do so either by email (tony@airflowresearch.com) or by phone.

Thank you,
Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / Product Design
(818)890-0616 Ext. 109

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

thats lame. afr sucked anyways, comon barry grant 3 valve heads.

i still dont quite get why thier group purchases arent allowed. i work for csk auto, i can see what i can do, or will they take away ours as well? lol

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

I agree that is VERY weak. AFR is just doing what shimano is well known for, controlling the price so that their heads consistantly go for top dollar. It has nothing to do with their distributers its the fact that as a company orders more heads the price from AFR lowers... IE during a group purchase AFR loses a LIL bit of money. What their CSR guys SHOULD have told them is this is good customer relations and the $150 total they would have missed out on only helps them and gets their product into more vehicles.

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

you hit the nail on the head!!!!! its a bunch of

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

boycott AFR.

1bdbrd

iTrader: (1)

and people wonder why the aftermarket has dried up for our cars here recently. the phrase "Sell me the part i want for the price i want to pay or else ill boycott you until you do" really applies here. someone mentioned it only saving about $150 is that really worth all this fuss?

KenV

Everyone seemed to miss the UNSOLICITED plug I posted as proof that GPs aren't necessary to get a decent price. For those who want to bunch up their BVDs over AFRs post, try being in their shoes. Tick off a dozen people on 3GO, screw all the dealers who have carried AFR products for years. Tough choice Geez, someone call a waambulance.

Just be glad we can get the heads for about the same as the Ford folks pay for good heads. Stop trying to glean the fricking fields.

/rant

K

DigitalMonarch0

It's unfortunate that a company with as much product recognition as AFR chooses to nitpick over a couple of dollars just to make their customers happy.

GP's when done right work out in the end for everyone involved.

The Group - Gets a solid slightly lower price for the product.
The Dealer - Gets increased volume and customer base
The Manufacturer - Retains profit and harnesses a larger following.

Basically what AFR is telling us is that they would rather loose the customer than make 5% less profit off each set of heads. And I promise you that between 50 and 75% of the cost is pure profit for them.

There's no quicker way to lose your customers than to make them feel like they don't matter as much as profit margins.

And Ken - There's a big difference between raping the manufacturer and hunting the market for a good price.

But hey.. it's AFR's policy and there's nothing we can do about it.

... time to go look at that set of ported Edelbrocks.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

You guys are completely off base with your assumptions and theories about why we do not allow or promote GP's.

Do you think that if you bought a set of heads from one of our larger "existing" dealers that we receive (AFR) any different money than if we would have sat back and let this GP play out by signing up Precision as an "authorized" dealer of AFR. We might have made MORE money selling to Precision than some of the arrangements made with dealers that move 6 figures of our inventory every year.

It has NOTHING to do with money....It has all to do with establishing (and protecting) a dealer base of shops and business's that advertise our products (and spend money to do so)...use our products....and will continue to sell and use our products over and over again. We are not looking for a one time "GP" of ten or twenty sets of heads if it will jeapordize and upset the entire distribution network we have set up that can buy ten or twenty THOUSAND sets of heads over the course of the next few years.

Also, regarding profit margins, NOT EVEN close. If you guys had any idea of what it costs to make a product like this, the R&D time we put forth, and everything else we do to try and stay on top to offer you guys the best bolt on out of the box cylinder head that money can buy. A new LS1 head spends 6-7 hours EACH casting on the CNC porting machine...that doesnt include ANY of the other machining operations just to get the head to a porting machine, casting costs, seats, guides, valves, springs, etc....If some of you had the margins we do you would be out of business. The ONLY way it becomes an acceptable situation is to maintain volume....hence the need even more to protect our existing base of authorized dealers that buy from us on a regular basis.

Those that decide not to buy from us over this group purchase situation will be missing out on arguably the best product we have produced to date....It's a shame you will miss the performance and reliabilty benefits this head could have offered you. For the others that see the big picture and understand, we appreciate your business and you wont even THINK about the money you spent once you put your foot in the throttle.

Regards,
Tony Mamo

PS Guys....we realize this is a "sensitive" situation and understand everyone is in search of the best deal...however, hopefully you can put yourselves in our shoes and understand our position.

A88GTANotchback

you guys are a bunch of whinners. if you really want the product get it, dont let a couple bucks make or break your decision.... and as for the boycotting statement..... yeah lets boycot these ppl who make a great product that flow great, for a reasonable price....good call.. and good luck gettign the same numbers out of those old edelbrocks.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

ok so let me get this straight, your worried that a GP of 10-20 heads is gonna effect a distribution network of 10-20 thousand heads sold a year?

gimme a break, but your just doing your job so i understand.

KenV

And that is the point around which the debate will rage. Perception dictates which is happening. We are on different sides of that, and I of course respect your side. I own nothing AFR, but I am with them on this one from what I perceive to be a realistic standpoint.

Quick final thought, since I'll have nothing more to offer here: I compare the time spent on price chasing to the time spent buying at FMV and enjoying the purchase. That's not for everyone but it works for me.

Peace and ,

K

DigitalMonarch0

I understand that you're following the guidelines set forth by your organization, and I obviously am not attacking you personally. AFR makes an outstanding product, and have built up a quality reputation to be proud of.

However, I still do not completely agree.

You Say:
Yet what you say seems to defeat your own argument. I fail to conceptualize how exactly a one time group purchase of 10-20 sets of heads disrupts your entire distribution network... especially when that network results in ten or twenty thousand sales over the next few years.

It would be like Tops telling me that their "Buy 3 get your 4th for half price" sale is going to disrupt the grocery industry.

Your dealers are obviously making a profit by selling to us, so obviously this means that they have to be marking up the product higher than the manufacturer price that you've set. If one of your dealers decides to cut us a break by chopping into his own markup a bit, I still don't understand where your "disruption” lies.

The aggregation of volume in the form of a "GP" or any other sales situation generally always results in savings for the person making the purchase. It happens all the time here on TGO and out in the marketplace everyday.

I understand that you're just doing your job and I sympathize with that, but I was really excited with the prospect of buying a set of heads from you guys today.

I earn my living working in the marketplace so believe me; I know where you're coming from.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

84-350berlineta

I don't know why AFR is being so unreasonable about this. They refuse to even let Precision become a distibutor of their product simply because Precision offered to give TGO users a price that was different from their recommended "racer's net" price. AFR does not lose out a penny from Precision selling at a lower price. Precision still pays the same price to AFR for the head, but by selling a larger quantity to us as a group they also make more money! They may be selling the heads to us at a slightly lower price, but they are making a lot more money overall due to the opportunity of selling a larger quantity of heads. If precision planned on becoming a distributor of AFR, aparentlly they weren't already, I don't see the problem.
I requested from AFR to have distributorship information sent to my shop and havn't recieved it yet. I am curious to see what grounds they have for refusing to sell to Precision. I requested the info prior to all this non-sense about refusing to sell TGO users any heads through a GP. When I spoke with the sales dept at AFR, I was a bit offended at how rude the "salesman" was to me. I mentioned that I was a member of TGO and that a group of us wanted to each buy a set of their heads, and the guy got real heated and upset with me. He immediatlly assumed that because it was a GP it was some kind of scam.
I had planned on having my shop become an AFR distibutor depending on the package they offered. I was thinking I would, as I understood the basic price structure between us if I would become a distubutor. While the profit margin was a small one, I still believe that their product is superior to any other head overall, and my shop ONLY sells top quality parts! But, after all this non-sense, I don't know that AFR is looking for any more business, or retailers.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

i would pass on afr, even as a business, tell your customers the truth why you dont sell.

IROCZ4BD3

iTrader: (4)

So a few heads get sold for less than what you want your network of dealerships to sell them for...It's called a promotion.There have been ALOT of GP's that I missed out on that I ended up buying that part from a retailer since I liked the way it looked/performed.Who's to say that outta the 10 - 20 heads that another 10 don't get sold thru the network because of the GP.

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

Here's the problem. No one builds a better head, PERIOD. AFR knows this, so they use it to their advantage. Their reasoning is not real, and yes I am business for myself too so I know what he is trying to say. The thinking is if everyone ran a GP the price would come down, or AFR would be inundated with requests for the product at a lower price. But if what AFR says is true and they miss out on NO money than they should encourage their distributors to start GP's like this. The distributor makes up the individual loss on a single head in volume. AFR in reality sells MORE heads and everyone is happy. Someone needs to teach them a little customer relations and long term customer retention. Of course I will always use AFR, except for the new LS1 heads, I will probably be going elsewhere. Frankly because I can get more performance components and better flowing head for less... Hard to say that for an L98 head, in fact darn near impossible to find anything better than a nice set of 195's.

erummel

iTrader: (2)

After reading AFRs posts I have to say that I am VERY dissapointed in them. Yeah they make great cylinder heads but their whole attitude towards this really has me on the fence now as to whether or not I want to buy from them either direct or via a distributor.

Its a principle thing for me now. Do I want to do business with a company like this?

I also have to say that if the sales guy from AFR who posted (Tony Mamo) was half as smart as he is trying to sound he would have taken the time to look at the number of members of Thirdgen.org.

Tony, in case you are still reading this post, there are over 37,000 registered members on this board.

I may still buy some 195s but I will have to give it some thought now.

Eric

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

not me, as far as im concerned, afr sucks, because of customer service.

Lo-tec

It doesn't. You need to find a distributor that will sell them for little to no profit.

Think of it this way:

GM sells it's parts to each and every dealer for the same price. Most sell them at GM's suggested list, some are ****** (GM parts direct). They make a couple percent in discounts (like 3-5%) and then f**k you on the shipping. You need to find a distributor that wants to make a SMALL profit (and possibly f**k you on shipping).

If their heads are so bad why is the wait time 8-12 weeks? Because people want them and are willing to pay full price and wait. This is america, and it's called capitalism. This is a free market, and the price paid is what the market will bear. Simple economics (see, HS paid off). I know I'm going to spend my hard earned money on them and wait.

Quit whining and get over it!!

P.S. This thread is pretty much done because there is no group purchase.

DigitalMonarch0

You should have paid a little more attention in your HS Economics class.

One company controlling the price of their product and keeping it sky high is the exact opposite of a capitalistic idea.

Get off your soap-box and take your foot out of your mouth.

(See my three college degrees in economics and business really paid off)

Dumbass.

Lo-tec

The consumer sets the price in the end. Consider this:

If the price was to high, no one would buy their product. This would lead to one of two things:

A-They would have to lower their price to sell their product.

B-They would go out of business because no sales=no money and the object of a business is to make money.

Looks like they don't have a problem selling their product at the current price due to the 8-12 week backlog on orders.

And yes, I am a dumbass.

I'm off the soapbox and out of this one.