NLMoschitta

Well im a long time lurker, usually dont even log in to creep in the backgrounds but ive got some questions today gents.

Anyone on here do any sort of rallying in there camaros? Im looking to get into some rally events, and am searching for a car. I want to do something a little different which brings me to the camaro. Ive done some searching around on the net and have found a little info here and there about small teams using one. I was looking for some input. I know its not the ideal car but i dont care, haha plus im building up a fresh 350 that needs a home...

Well give me some feedback

Thanks
Nick

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

I've always thought it would be cool to set up a third gen for this (Big time closet rally racing fan here)

Doesn't seem super practical though. All the best rally cars are AWD, light (think 4 cyl with heavy boost), and have short wheelbases. Thirdgens have way too long a nose, are heavy, and I think there would be severe suspension carnage if you ever landed off a jump.

What kind of rally racing are you talking about though? I still think it'd be cool

NLMoschitta

The obvious choice would be a subaru/evo type deal... but i want something different. one of the big downfalls is that long nose on the car,but im not too worried about it. Im looking to do stuff like the Lake superor rally, the 100 acre wood rally, olympus rally etc, mostly gravel/dirt logging style roads. Wouldnt be a whole lot of jumping per se.

Suspenion wise it would take a little work, i was thinking a small lift in the rear and adj coil overs up front maybe? This is just one of the options im looking into. Some of my other choicers are an a4 quattro, super beetle, e30 bmw. but if i could do a camaro and use the engine im building i could have my cake and eat it too lol.

I like the feedback, keep it coming!

Nick

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

Coil-overs in front would be one of the worst things you could do, IMO. That puts the weight of the car on the strut towers, and the abuse from rally racing would destroy those. Unless you redid the suspension, and tied the suspension points into the roll cage, and heavily gusseted it.

Guest

Wont your engine fit into an E30?
I agree with Primetime on not going coilover. That's for paved racing. Your ride quality may suffer, but it is dirt roads after all. That may call for better ride quality, but choose padded seats, and find springs stiff enough to heep the tires in the dirt.
Back in the early '80s, Pikes Peak was dirt all the way, and Camaros were campaigned successfully in the annual hill climb race.
Since it is in the dirt, you can run a spool for best traction.
Definitely do Competition Engineering's best weld-in subframe connectors, plus a full 12-point roll cage.
Steel wheels tend to only bend when all goes wrong, aluminum tends to break. Go steel.
This is probably the only place I'd want a TH350, but I'd want an off-road pan, with integral skid plate.
You're gonna have issues with tires, unless you're willing to really cut the fenders. I would. Then I'd fit LT235/75R15 tires on 15x7 wheels.
I'd probably start with at least a 3.42:1 axle, unless you're building a high-rpm screamer of an engine. Then I'd start with 3.73:1.
Brakes: You'll definitely need to upgrade. If you choose the right wheels, 12" rotors will fit. That'll help more than fancy calipers. Use high-temp fluid and braided stainless hoses.
The panhard bar is a liability, especially if the rear wheel offset is virtually stock. Better have the tires out a bit.
Honestly, you would do better to start with an older, leaf-spring camaro. Those axles are stronger anyway. And junkyard 12" brakes are easier, using Caprice stuff. Not many had them, but there were enough.

EFIhead

I'd look to the Baja guys for inspiration if I was you. They use long arm, long travel suspension front and rear (some are solid axle rears with long trailing arms hinged near the middle of the vehicle and tall coils/shocks) and purpose designed shocks with matching coils.http://www.dixonbrosracing.com/prodi...nger4x4-01.jpg Check this pic out, they are on fact using coil-over type suspension. I have seen a 4 ton mega cab long bed diesel dodge ram survive numerous dune jumps with a set up like this. It would take some serious thought, planning, extensive chopping, and of course extensive fab work. There would be no off the shelf parts, but maybe you could fab special A-arms and trailing arms and what not that match what the Baja guys use. Definitly need wide body fenders (maybe use this kit from american sports car design http://www.americansportscar.com/ima..._kit_011_t.JPG) and chop out the shock towers front and rear and weld in a tall hoop that the shocks can then bolt to like that truck has. You can do a lot if you have the skills and know how thats for sure (sorry for ramblining)

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

I'll agree with you torquer, except on one thing. Why would he choose an automatic, when a good manual trans is superior in every way except in a drag racing environment?

To the O.P., what kind of budget is this on, and how competitive is the car supposed to be? That'll influence the advice you get a lot.

That long travel suspension stuff is really something, another thing I'm really fascinated by. But have you seen the price of shocks for them??? Eeep.

Guest

At that point, you're basically just putting a Camaro body on a full custom tube chassis. And for that, no point ruining a real Camaro. Just buy aftermarket fiberglass.

Guest

I generally do advocate manuals, but real rally cars no longer have clutch pedals. Ken Block and Tanner Faust may still use them in their exhibition cars, but real rally cars are DSG, and you can't even afford those, let alone bolt one to a 350 Camaro.
Even 80% of real, hardcore off road enthusiasts are switching to automatics. They just have too many advantages once you get off the pavement. Or if you're towing up a snowy mountain. But that's off topic.

NLMoschitta

This is all excellent information, thanks guys! Its cool to hear other peoples opinions and points of view. As far as budget goes, ive been finding reasonable cars between the $2000-$3000. I already have the engine and is nearly completed. after the cage, suspension goodies, seats, safety equipment, and oods n ends, im looking to be around 12k give or take. Competition wise, i want to hit local rallycross events then enter some of the rallys on the east coast, nothing super serious but as an amature.

So if i can get the suspension setup, do a little fender trimming, and a set of gravel tires, it wouldnt be too bad of a car in the gravel would it? ive seen a good amount of 5.0 mustangs run rally, some older camaros, and i found 1 video of a gen 3, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX0DtkToIjw

I know its going to take some work and research, but im not looking to go pro or anything and i think this would be more fun then getting a wrx and bolting on parts

Thanks again
Nick

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

Oh okay, cool. You have a pretty decent budget.

In my opinion, the #1 priority that should go into the car, is safety. I don't know what the tracks look like, but you need to take this seriously.

This means:
-Roll cage, 12 point minimum IMO in combination with subframe connectors
-BRAKE UPGRADES, you must eliminate brake fade. That would be very uncool

At the same time, if it's a competition car only, do everything you can to reduce weight, especially from the nose of the car. Strip it, build a custom dash with the gauges you need. Drill lightening holes in things like the bumper supports, or remove them

You'll also definitely need to upgrade the radiator & cooling system. I'd highly recommend an oil cooler, and if you run an auto a transmission cooler

I'd still recommend a manual transmission though. A T5 with straight cut gears & dog ring engagement is a very light, super quick shifting, very efficient, strong transmission. That makes lots of noise Costs $$ though

As for the suspension... Not my area of expertise I admit. Make sure your bump stops are in good shape. On dirt and gravel, seems to me like a longer softer spring might be desirable, to help absorb impacts, if matched to the right shock/strut. Not sure if there would be benefit to boxing the stock suspension pieces, but I'd rather do that than spend the budget on aftermarket if you're doing rally racing.

Definitely run a spool or mini-spool in the back. Unless some of the stages are on paved surfaces, and you race in rain.. Not so sure about that then

EFIhead

I was more thinking a seriously modded floor pan and wheel wells in the front and rear because you can weld 1/4 inch plates to the floor where suspension pieces will be and tie a substantial roll cage to each point for rigidity. Shock towers would have to go and be replaced with a tubular mount tied into the cage. Might also be possible to cut and lengthen the a-arms. And than lengthen the rear trailing arms and relocate the mount farther forward to keep the rear axle in the right place. Better to fab up tubular pieces though, it would be lighter and stronger than boxing stock pieces.

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

Not enough to justify the cost, in my opinion. Unless you fab your stuff up to be adjustable, then it's worth it.

EFIhead

either way your fabin it all up, theres is no off the shelf long arm suspension for maros. Adjustable is definetly a good idea though, and i figure its easier to use tubing rather than boxing and extending the stock pieces

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

Oh, I see what you're saying. I was referring to boxing the stock pieces, as in retaining the stock geometry, not increasing the arm's length. Boxing the stock pieces is much more cost effective than buying new LCA's etc

I'm not sure the effort of new suspension geometry would be worth it in this application. Maybe "new" mounting points, reinforced into the cage for strength and to save weight, but retaining the geometry

I'll have to find the thread, some guys did this for a small circle track car

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

Found it

Check out what these guys did, maybe find some inspiration?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...ro-street.html

EFIhead

well I have to say, this post really got the gears spinnin in my head. I'll need to find time to make some sketches, too bad I have no access to a scanner Whatever, I'll figure a way to get em' on here once I draw em' up.

NLMoschitta

thanks for the link primetime, there is def some stuff in that thread i found useful. The cage and safety equipment would all be as per the FIA Rally rules. they can be found on the their web site, or on the rally america site.

Im pretty exited about this. i was thinking this was just going to be another one of my outlandish idea. Haha this one might become a reality.

Heres a link to a guy to rallys a camaro, not too much info about the car though. i might try to contact him.

http://www.jimmorrisracing.com/

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

Wish I could see more of the suspension setup, particularly in back.

Did you notice the skidplate under the oil pan and crossmember? That's a good idea. Also the air ducts in the roof, since they run no A/C

Looked like a taller & wider than stock tire in the back, taller in front, it's mini-tubbed

And the interior is what I was talking about, completely stripped down, build your own dash. Amazing how little wiring it needs really.

I'm with you, wish I could see more of the car and what he did to it

1985-f-bomb

people have been using 90s mustangs and even brand new mustangs for quite a while in rallys. take a look at some european rallys, they also use alot of rwd cars. its really great that someones thinking of using these cars in rally. and you have a pretty sweet budget to do it. good luck.

NLMoschitta

Im going to try to email him and see if he can give me more info on the suspension set up. I like the skid plate, that is on my list as a must for any car i were to get. too much important stuff down there not to cover it up. hopefully he can give me a few pointers. the suspension really has me at a stand still with it, especially since no one makes a rally set up for the car, its all custom set up.

bunmod

well besides the body rigidness and suspension system i would work on weight, i would like to see one in a rally mostly because the wide stance of the car prevents a roll over, trust me i have tried in my car, anyways for a suspension setup before getting shocks and springs i would take a look at BMR they have nice tubular replacements and if you still havent turned off of the coil over suspension they make a conversion kit for that kind of stuff

mike_c

iTrader: (13)

You might want to try and get in touch with this guy: http://www.youtube.com/user/lilmissmorris15

He drives this car:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1764630...7613277563730/

Edit: I didn't see that NLMoschitta had already posted another link to the same guy.

bduffey723

lol my buddy wanted to do all of this as well... he ended up takin almost everything off the camaro and putting it on a truck frame from i believe was a bronco? but i could be wrong.. but it was a truck frame.. and the thing is sick to drive around town.. see a neighbor u dnt like and there goes his mail box lol

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

I've done a few rallies as a co-driver, Paris by Day/Night, 100aw in a Chevy Monza a few years back. We started with a V6, then we put in a 305. We saw quite a variety of cars, including C3 corvette and Mike Hurst in his awesome Mustang.

I think the downfall for the third gen is the long wheelbase. It doesn't matter if it's not AWD as those cars are usually in different classes.

Now, if you were talking about something like Targa New Foundland or a tarmac rally, a thrid gen might work really well. My old roommate (driver) and I have talked/dreamed about getting back into it and either building up a third gen or 2nd gen to build for Targa.

Unless you're talking about a pro team, I think you'd want to stick with a manual. Build a car (any car) and have fun.

One more thing, don't forget to get a rally computer. We did our first one without it. It was MUCH easier once we decided we wanted to do some more rallies and plunked down the cash for a Terratrip

NLMoschitta

Hey Gman,

Im curious as to what your suspension setup was like? Please elaborate if you can. Ive been looking at a couple different options

Nick

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

It's been a few years. The monza has a sla suspension up front from the factory. I think the springs were a higher rate, and it had a good posi (powertrax?). The car was my roommates old autocross car so I'm not sure what he had previously done. Nothing crazy like changing the pickup points or coilovers as far as the suspension goes.

We went with steel wheels with the thinking that they would take more punishment and could be hammered back into shap if needbe. We felt alum wheels would break before bending. For tires, we use Kuhmo R700s.

We did broke the panhard mount twice however, so that area got reinforced.

Some of the other teams had more money in their lights and wheels than we did in our entire car.

NLMoschitta

Thanks for the info. trying to get an idea of what folks are using on the more unusual cars lol. Ive got a reasonable budget, but trying to spend the most on the cage and safety equipment. So ill cut on the wheels and lights as well... until they dont work anylonger.

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

That's being smart, I'd agree about spending the most effort on the cage and safety equipment. Be sure to get a decent padded seat that still offers the support you need, go with a fixed position instead of seat tracks if you don't need to adjust it.

Also, going along with the safety, include brakes with that. Not just the brakes themselves, but I'd also route brake cooling ducts

As for your suspension, as stated I think you'll be okay running the stock suspension pick-up points. But I'd gusset the mounting points, especially in the rear suspension. Be sure to re-enforce the panhard mount, and the LCA mounts in particular.

--If you re-enforce the area well enough, you could also get rid of the upper panhard bar