Richard_Strahl

iTrader: (1)

I've had this idea in my head for a while now, I thought I'd share it with you all and see what you think.
What if one were to convert a Third Gen into a Mid-engine car, like a Lambo or something? I'm thinking that the huge dome-like hatch glass would be perfect to view it through. Plus, it may make it preform better...
Any thoughts?

885speed

iTrader: (1)

I don't think its very possible, if at all.
Interesting thought though, subscribing.

Richard_Strahl

iTrader: (1)

Haha, Anything is possible, my dear lad... with SCIENCE!!

Seriously though, I could see issues with back space... but perhaps you could take out the back seats, making it a 2-seater. Maybe use a smaller engine or something... may have to move the axel around...

Sure would be cool to see, in any case, lol.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Look at a 3rd gen from the side.....

REAR-engine would put it under the glass. MID-engine would put it between the front seats.

I actually measured my GTA (for ***** & giggles) about doing this one day.

Maybe with a sideways mounted engine like the Northstar V8, you could do it though.

FYRCHKN

With enough time and money I could pull it off.


Are there any investors out there that are interested?

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

With an IRS rear end MAYBE. Wouldn't work with a solid axle.

Richard_Strahl

iTrader: (1)

I thought there really wasn't too much of a visual difference between the two, I just know Lambos and Ferraris have a Mid and that's what gave me the idea =P

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Between what two?

Think about the length of an engine & a tranny & you'll very quickly realize, that it isn't possible. Maybe if you can find an IRS transaxle, which the Lambos & Ferraris have.

Richard_Strahl

iTrader: (1)

Between a Rear and a Mid. Not saying that what I'm talking about isn't a Rear, I just didn't know that's what it technicaly would be
Engines come in different sizes though, right? Maybe you couldn't use the same engine that you could in the front, but I'm sure there's one small enough to fit that'll still let it preform well.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

All the V8s are gonna be the same length (in small blocks). All the transmissions are gonna be just about the same length (within about 6").

A V6 would help, but even then it would be tight, because of the transmission length.

Besides all that, you'd have to tackle the biggest challenge.....The IRS rear axle. I know of only ONE 3rd gen that has been done & ONE more in progress right now. There are a few 4th gens, but not many, even though it would essentially be the same as a 3rd gen built one.

Not saying none of it is impossible to do. But would require a LOT of custom fabrication. FYRCHKN is a great fabricator & even for him, it would be a BIG thing to tackle! (can't wait for him to read this :rofl: )

Somebody do it & prove me wrong!

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

BTW.....Rear is behind the axle, Mid is in front of the axle, behind the front seats. A mid-engined 3rd gen would be really cool to see!

Richard_Strahl

iTrader: (1)

Looks like he already has, haha

Ahhh, I see, thank you, Stephen. I knew they were both in the back though, maybe it could be a Mid if you were to shift back the rear axel, lol.

It's been done, though? Awesome, do you have any pics? I did a quick Google earlier, nothing =/

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

IRS rear axle wouldnt help. Youd need a transaxle of some sort. Audi5000 and porsches are common for kit cars. The easiest swap would use a transverse transaxle like FWD cars used

The amount of work would be similar to a backhalf, far from impossible

itsMikey

that would be an interesting site O_o lol..dont think i would like it...

J91

W/a Porsche rear transaxle it could be done, basically an entirely new car. Weight balance and distribution would be a key factor in making it worth a Sh*&. That is a very long nose for a mid-engine type of setup?????

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

It is. Look at exotics for classic mid engine chassis layout

Long wheelbase
Short nose
Cabin pushed forward

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

A transaxle would be the best way, but an IRS would be the minimum/"easiest" way to go, but still create a transmission length fitment issue.

Go with a Porsche transaxle with a SBC adapter plate & it would be the "easiest" way to get it to work.

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

Not a thirdgen, but gives you an idea:

More info:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/22/s...ngine-v8-gets/

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

you could use a c5-c6 vette trans axle, find a way to bolt the engine right to it. It would save some room, but it would still push the engine up to the driverseat.

It would probably be more practical to try to just swap in a trans axle and leave the engine where it is. You would balance the car out a bit more, and the trans axle would fit nicely int he rear. Only issue would be rear width, the c5 and c6 rears are are pretty wide and i dont know how well they would fit.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

C5/6 transaxles are a poor choice. They have a separate differential bolted to the rear of the transmission. This puts the axle shafts at extreme end of the drivetrain eliminating any benefit of the mid engine design

The better choice as seen the the pic above are transaxles with the differential infront of the transmission or transverse with the engine sitting ontop of it

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Easiest way would to use a Fiero-type setup using a FWD trans-axle. Friend of mine put a small block in his, and I would think the f-body is wider if anything. Be kinda cool to see some really deep dished rims on it to make up the difference, and keep the hatch glass for viewing.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Heh, this was last discussed waaaay back in November.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...ngine-mod.html

AlkyIROC

An Olds Toronado or Caddy Eldorado would be good choices for transaxles. They would be more compact than the Vette system in the above picture.

1978 HotRod magazine did a story on a mid engine Olds 442. Information is available online. I still have the issue around here somewhere.

http://www.hotrodharrys.com/cars/sho...hp?articleID=3
http://www.hotrodharrys.com/cars/sho...hp?articleID=4

Richard_Strahl

iTrader: (1)

So we've established that it's not impossible. In fact, with the right know-how, it's very possible. But what about the idea itself, is it something that would look cool or too weird?
Also, if you could get it done properly for free, would you consider doing it to your own Third Gen?

Scamo-2.8

iTrader: (16)

Hey, think of all the luggage space you'd have under that hood!

AlkyIROC

With enough time, money and skill, anything is possible. Is it economical or practical? Probably not.

4x4 third gens have been created. So have third gen station wagons. Do something unusual and make one a 4 door. Why not have 6 wheels with dual axles in the rear or even better, a dual steering axles in the front. (Penelope's car in Thunderbirds). Powerplant wise, just about anything that can be swapped probably has or has been attempted.

Anything can be done to be different. It just depends how far you're willing to go to get it done to be different. To do anything out of the ordinary like this, asking how it's done won't get many positive replies. You need to think about what you want to do then with a lot of planning, just do it. If it turns out great then everyone says how fantastic the idea is. If it doesn't turn out the way you wanted it, nobody will ever know you attempted it.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Lots of 4x4 3rd gens running around today. I've seen a limo 3rd gen....And several dual rear axle 3rd gens were built in the 80s, when the tandem axle was the mini-truck craze.

iansane

iTrader: (1)

I'd love to see a mid engine, IRS thirdgen vert.

What kind of length is on the c5/c6 trans/transaxle from front plate to axle centerline?

robotic_junky

I agree. Those were the first 2 donor cars I thought of when I saw the title of the tread. Find a 70s Eldorado and grab the transverse tranny and grab the 500 Caddy big block, if it was equipped with one. That would probably be the easiest way to do a mid-engine.

Gumby

They were jaming them northstar caddy engines into the trunk of the ns caddys, so you had 2 motors. It would surly fit in the roomy rear of a 3rd gen.

ericjon262

to me, it sounds like way more work than it would be worth, you would have to completely re engineer the whole car.

thirdbirds

anyone remember this ? charlie swartz mid 80s thirdgen late model !

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

funny, that looks nothing like a 3rd gen, with the exception of having 4 wheels

AlkyIROC

All the Late Models look the same with no resemblance to what the car originally was.

25thAnn_RS

I agree with all things are possable with time and money. Here is an interesting rear engine Camaro, with the motor out of a Subaru. I know it's not a third gen, but it is possible. Although this car was designed to float.

cianci

thats rediculous...... i want one =)

sakattack28

in high school we had a student teacher who had a fiero for awhile, and had the 5.0 HO mustang engine in it, so thats an option, like stated by fistfirebird. i personally would have thought that one of the better options might be the transverse V-8s that they put in the Pontiac Grand Prix GPX or the Impala, they are front wheel drive, so it might not be that hard to use those engines.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Fiero transaxles are beyond weak. They are rather light so until they have serious power and good traction most dont notice the trans issue

Still not very many good choices aside from the euro/exotic longitudinal transaxle or the GM FWD version. GM LS4 would be one of the easiest to swap in there. Its still a significant amount of work, more-so than a back-half

sakattack28

true. i really have to stop reading threads like this cause they all make me say "i wanna try that!! crap, no money. " maybe someday ill manage to do something cool....

Fuzzman17

I agree with the Eldo, Toro trans axle idea. A Buddy had a 69 toro with a 425 olds engine that would run well over 130 MPH. A trans axle from a Pantera might also work but would be much harder to find. Early Eldo, Toro setup used torsion bar suspension. might make things easier. and some good HP parts to be had for the Olds. Plus it would put the engine over the rear wheels making it a rear mid engine setup. Panteras had a half glass partition between the driver and the engine as I recall.
I don't think a transverse setup would look nearly as cool under that BIG rear glass.
Sometimes the satisfaction in doing something different is all it takes to make it worth it.

resinlake

This is what they use for the Factory Five Racing GTM car, an LS Engine with Porsche rear trans-axle.

ohiotj

I'll agree with the above recommendations for the Toronado/Eldorado transaxle. Could get a BOP to chevy adapter and still run the small block. Might make a good drag car, but engineering it to handle well is gonna take some work. Not to mention, in order to keep decent legroom, you may be moving the front firewall forward a bit. But thats not as much work as the engine move.

87bluebird

the eldorado/toronado idea is the best. you can probably find a wrecked one in a junkyard. then cut everything out of the back of your car and set the engine and transaxle where you want them then start building new frame rails and floor boards around it. and a new firewall behind your seats. i would also put a roll cage in at the same time.also i would put a floor where the engine used to be and you would have huge trunk. the only thing im not sure about is the radiator would you leave that up front or create some vents to give it air in the back of the car. if i had money and a spare third gen i would try this.

pgmonster

we did this same thing for a class project in high school
we took an 89 firebird and dropped the rear end chopped everything out under the hatch and swaped the front end out of a 2.7 chrysler sebering when all was done the car was fast and the class sold it for just over $70,000 it was a fun project took about 6 months of working everyday we even came in on weekends as for the price we spent doing it i have no idea because i did not pay for it

87bluebird

got any pics?

Arizona IROC

iTrader: (4)

I have an 85 Toronado if anyone needs it..

CHEAP!!!!!! lol

pgmonster

Yea somewhere but they were on my old computer and i forgot what i did with all of my old files i look to see if i can find them if not i know the guy who bought it ill ask him for current pictures

87bluebird

please do and why did u just use a 2.7 why not something bigger.

pgmonster

we actually had a compitition we split into two teams the other team took a more simpler aproach they took every thing out behind the front seats and put the same motor from the front there and used the same rearend just made a custom i think like a 3" driveshaft but i dont know much about that one i didnt build it i do know however that the person who bought it wrecked it about 3 days later i dont know if it was beacause a driver fault or just a design flaw lol

someone donated that car because it threw a rod so we pulled the motor and rebuilt it rather thanbuying a new motor cause we had a budget and that ment we could save on the motor and spend it on something else (a supercharger)

87bluebird

so did you ever get the pics? we need proof.
also what did you do about the steering.