Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

You know the phrase "A Picture is worth 1000 words?"

Well, this is 1000 words.



There are more in the following link.
http://gallery.me.com/thirdgen89gta#...or=black&sel=0

604bb chevy
Olds Toronado transaxle
Lots of fabrication.

Had the pleasure of talking to the owner for a good while. Great guy. Tons of attention to detail on the car, couldn't find one thing wrong with it. It has a Testarossa looking body kit on it, but there are no Ferrari badges. Its just the ONLY mid/rear engine thirdgen i've ever seen.

Full package, 14" wilwood 6 piston brakes all around, welds on the rear subframe all look great as well.

87bluebird

wow
that is an amazing car. i don't like the bodykit. but they did an amazing job.that fire wall they built is nice.and those headers are insane. is there any kind of muffler on that?

sakattack28

oh that is so not fair, i just got home and was going to comment about this. i wanted to be the first to talk about it. oh well. either way, that was a sick car. and this is a prime example of something that was done right.

Roc THIS

That really was an amazing car . It deserved best in show for sure .

gearhead0384

iTrader: (7)

Beat me too it Bill.

For anyone interested that is my face in the right hand portion of that picture. hahaha

duckmanquacker

umm WOW!!!!

Mid-Engine_Dave

Thanks for the compliments! It was a long build, started in 1992, finished the first time in 2006, torn down to do new rear suspension, big brakes, AirRide springs all around - finished again 6/09.

Here's what it looks like with the hood and trunk closed:

Mid-Engine_Dave

Here's some pictures of the front and rear suspensions with the AirRide springs:

resinlake

just wanted to say you're awesome, thank you for sharing your work.

Mid-Engine_Dave

Here's a few more:

Mid-Engine_Dave

Here's the engine on the Toronado transaxle with the powder/ceramic coating fresh. The engine is a tall deck Bow Tie block with Lunati rotating assembly, 4.56 bore/4.625 stroke for 604 cu.in., 10:1 compression and a fairly mild Comp Cams hydraulic roller cam. It has Edelbrock rectangular port heads with a Force Fuel Injection 2,000 cfm throttle body and 50 lb/hr injectors controlled by a Holley Commander 950 ecu. The headers are 2.12" tubes, equal length with a 180 degree fire order in the collectors, hence the crossovers. The headers give it a higher pitched sound unlike most big blocks.

Gumby

Love the body kit, Im doing a similar poor mans version of the Euro/Ferrari sportscar look after I snaged up the notchback for $150, center exhaust, gonna get some wide body rear glass fender for it but that's as far all Ill be going

Mid-Engine_Dave

A few more engine shots. The Toro transaxle requires a tube thru the oil pan for the right side drive axle - it just clears the counterweights under the #3 main bearing. Everything that could be was powder coated to make upkeep easy as this is a driver.

duckmanquacker

MOMMY I WANT ONE!!!! slobber slobber drool slurp!!

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

So other than being shockingly different, what is this the purpose behind this car's modification? Is it fast in the 1/4 mile? Can it handle full on 30 minute sessions at an open track day? Is the car decent at auto-x? Just wondering what was the driving force for doing all of this work...

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Thats awesome

One question, why the inboard AND outboard rear brakes? Outboard for normal braking and inboard for E-brake?

itsMikey

that looks cool but id never think of doing that..lol

Gumby

I thought about it in the late 80s but wanted to put a 426 HEMI back there and make it an AWD car with 200 Dyno HP per tire but Im crazy like that.

duckmanquacker

They didn't call that motor an elephant for no reason

Gumby

Good RW traction

Mid-Engine_Dave

Different is one of the reasons I built it, another was for the challenge. Frankly, I enjoy building it more than showing it and having to occasionly defend my choices. It wasn't built to be a drag car or auto-x car, rather a cruiser - think of it as a modern-bodied street rod. But as a 37 year GM engineer designing locomotives and their mechanical components, where reliability is the key criteria, I designed and built this car to be rock solid for reliability - most would say it is over-designed. I am also a gadget guy and so included a lot of features like the remote controlled engine hood, touch screen PC in the dash, back-up camera, air suspension,... I didn't worry about weight as I would have if it is was built to be a race car.

I have had an interest in European mid-engine cars like the Pantera, Europa, Ferrari's, etc. since the early seventies. I've built street rods, raced stock cars, done engine swaps, built kit cars and this was conceived as my idea of an all-around performance car. Working for GM, it had to be GM powered. In the mid-70's a company in Lansing, MI formed by an Olds engineer was selling plans and kits to put Toronado transaxles in the rear of anything on wheels (Mid-Engineering Co) which showed the possibilities. I had built a Kelmark GT (Ferrari Dino replica) with a mid-mounted Buick V6 on a Corvair transaxle that was nice but lacked interior space to move the seat back enough to be comfortable for me. So I looked around and ultimately chose the Firebird as my starting point. T-tops were a key requirement I had, and the price for the car was reasonable in 1989 when I bought it with the long term intention to do the Toro install. I had bought a 68 Toronado in 1987 that I drove for a couple of years as a commuter, then pulled the drivetrain, sold the 455, and scrapped the rest after I bought the Firebird. Although the engine placement is too far to the rear and too high to make the ultimate handling car, the longer wheelbase of the Firebird and the Toro transaxle arrangement gave me the interior space I wanted. And it handles well enough for me. I had the car in the rotisserie when I found the styling kit, a happy coincidence as I hadn't decided what to do to the car's appearance at that point. The 604 BBC is my expression of "there's no replacement for displacement." The 180 degree headers are as much for show as function but I like they way they look so I made them, and they do produce a unique sound. On many projects, the regret when it's done that I could have done more or better things to improve it was motivation to not cut corners or rush it. The down side of taking so long to build it is that what's available now, wasn't earlier. So tearing it apart to build a new suspension with latest wheels, tires, brakes and air suspension kept it in the garage for another year and one-half, but it was worth it for the better ride and braking, as well as the appearance.

UNCLE TOM

iTrader: (1)

a true work of art . a real masterpiece of engineering . a book on your work doing this would be an interesting read . again many KUDO'S .

oscarsrs

Killerzracing71

Any vids of the 604 running 180 degree headers are awesome. Ive never heard them on a BB especially on that big lol.

zachkuby87

car is completely awesome not feelin too hot about the body kit though.... i just wish i had the know how/skills and most of all money to build something crazy like this who knows maybe one day and what happened to the kid that said they did a rear engine project in school i still wanna see that thing

marc12321

you can do it but might need a shorter trans

the solitaire

I do not wish to break the spell here but the car in stock guise is almost a mid engined car in that he engine is located almost completely behind the front wheels.

With the approx. 55/45% front to rear weight ratio how difficult would i be to place the engine and trans back a little so it falls completely behind the front wheels, move the seats a little further back, remove rear seats and have a 50/50 mid engine car in the style of for instance the 2nd gen RX7?

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

This car is amazing. A true work of art. I have seen so many instances where people do an entire european style body kit on these cars with amazing attention to detail, yet leave a 305, or even worse, the six banger in there. Then there are some who put a basic 350 in and the body kit but the work is half a$$ to say the least. Others will leave the stock interior in it and it looks kind of weird.

But this one is a PERFECT blend of everything. Awesome engine with plenty of power, awesome brakes and suspension, detailed interior, and top notch body work. I commend you sir! This is what all other kit car builders should base thier cars on!

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Wow... My hat is off to you sir. That is one awesome car. I will venture to say...that is EASILY the best "ferrari" body kit that Ive seen on a thirdgen. Partially due to the fact that you didnt try to pass it off as a Testarossa. It looks fantastic.

Really cant say much more.

Ide really like to see some under "bonnet" shots showing the entire set up, and would REALLY LOVE some videos of the thing running and driving. Thats gotta be an absolute blast to drive!!!

Good work again!

Justin

*EDIT...followed the link and found the extra pics I was looking for. Now for some vids!!*

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Mid engine means the engine is located behind the passenger compartment. You can have a 48/52 split, but if the engine is not mounted midships its not a mid engined car.

You could go to an all aluminum V6, mounted it lower and further back than the orig. v8. do all the weight loss you can on the front and it would help front grip tremendously, but even if you loaded the back and got the weight distribution to 45 front and 55% rear, it would be a front engined car, not a mid engined car.

Front, mid, mid-rear, and rear refer to the engines placement in relation to the wheelbase. A super light engine in the front that changes the weight balance to 50/50 still means its a front engine car.

the solitaire

Sorry, haven´t looked at this thread for a while.
I´m afraid that your opinion is based on popular belief, not on engineering.

From an engineers point of view a front engine is an engine which is located in front of the front axle.
A rear engined vehicle has the engine located behind the rear axle.
That by definition means that if the engine is located anywhere between the front and rear axle, that it´s a mid engined vehicle.

Popular belief calls this, a mid engine with the driver located behind the engine, a mid-front engine which is only complicating things. Engine behind the axles is a mid engined vehicle.

To use a somewhat rediculous example,


-O------O-

That´s the wheelbase of our vehicle
# is our engine and for convenience I´ll use / as the drivers seat

#O--/--O-

Obvious front engine

-O--/--O#

Obvious rear engine

-O-/-#-O-

Obvious mid engine

-O#--/-O-

Some racecars use a setup closer to:

-O-#--/O-

The engine location discussed which from an engineers point of view is mid engine, by popular belief front-mid engine

-O---#-O/-

Front-mid engine as well? The driver obviously sits behind the engine (even behind the rear axle) and the engine is closer to the rear then to the front axle.



Some oldschool dragsters (hotrods?) from the late 50´s and early 60´s use this setup. To prevent confusion, and stick as tightly as possible to the engineering point of view, discard the driver position to describe the relation between engine location and axle location.

To me any engine located between the two axles is a mid engined vehicle. The driver can sit on top of the engine for all I care, driver location isn´t related to this descriptor.

Please accept that this is my opinion on the matter. Popular belief uses and craetes it´s own references.

kmcn47

in the process of planning this right now, a project for my 89 bird, dont worry it wont be an exact copy just basically the same underneath , questions though 1 how did you set up a firewall behind the driver area 2 hows the suspension setup, and 3 is it hard to work on with the access being limited to the space under the hatch? and sorry for being so nosy

Realmac4

iTrader: (2)

There is a 3rd gen Firebird with the Toronado powertrain mid-engine floating around somewhere

Mid-Engine_Dave

It's not floating anywhere, it's safely parked in my garage.

Mid-Engine_Dave

The firewall is integrated with the roll bar hoop which is placed at what was the forward edge of the rear seats. There's a small fixed window at the top and a removable center panel for engine access as shown in the pictures attached. Some photos in previous posts above show the independent rear suspension I fabricated with dual AirRide Shockwave units straddling the axle shafts on each side, using a fabricated hub carrier for a GM 4WD truck front hub unit that happens to mate with the Toro CV joint.

Make

Do you have any videos of the engine running?
I would love to hear it revving.

hardon85

You did a hell of a job, I will be honest it's not my style but I can appreciate all the work and the result you got here. Hopefully everyone else sees the amount of work you did and how long it took you to not try this at home lol. One question I do have is how easy would it be to find a toronado transmission today? And do they still make any parts for them?

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

x2

Also, how does it handle? Does it have a thirdgen feel, or lots of understeer? I bet traction isn't an issue....

Mid-Engine_Dave

Thanks for the compliments. I don't have any videos, in fact no one else has driven it without me along, so I really don't know myself how it sounds, just what I hear inside the car. I am running Edelbrock short glass-filled mufflers and it isn't that loud inside so I don't expect it is outside. It definitely has a higher pitch than a typical big block caused by the equal length 180 headers, which create a purer tone due to the even firing pulses. I was a noise engineer in my early career designing locomotive exhaust silencers and cab noise treatments.

As far as availibility of the early Toro transaxles, there is a steady market demand to support the GMC motorhomes which used the identical TH425. There is even a posi unit and higher numerical gear ratios available from the aftermarket, the factory highest was 3.07 with no posi. The motorhomes really need a higher gear. I am happy with a 3.07 since I have all the torque I need; in fact I have a 2.73 ratio I have thought of using to keep the revs down on the freeway. I recently had Bowler Transmissions, a high performance specialist, build me a beef-up trans. The TH425 uses the internals of a TH400 so it's inherently strong and aftermarket clutches, sprags, etc. are all readily available.

Handling wise, you feel the mass in the rear when it turns yet I haven't pushed it far enough to feel it at the limits. I was concerned it would plow badly yet it hasn't exhibited that behavior. I made a very weak front stabilizer (3/4" dia) to better balance the roll stiffness with the weight distribution and put a circle track splined stabilizer on the rear.

weswisehart

That is awesome. Being a thirdgen lover the body kit makes me sick and sad but wow that is one awesome work of art.

dans89

What about using a drive train out of a pontiac G8? IIRC their FWD and have an LSX... Just a thought...

EDIT: Correction. there RWD so that wouldn't work.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

No, G8's are RWD.

You are probably thinking of the GrandPrix GXP and Bonneville GXP series cars that had the 5.3L FWD setup.

RS Chris

Could be the G6 you were thinking of.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

G6 = fwd i4 or v6

I should know i own one. I love it. 3.9L vvt, variable intake length, 240hp with a 6spd.

rfox

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

WOH THAT IS SICK!!!!!

lunati397

the only benifit to doing this is to make a wheelie car otherwise there is no benifit


and if your using anything it should be a LS3 cross mounted like for the G8s and the new caprices

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

The BENEFIT is... it's awesome, works well and is what he wanted to build. I don't see this car doing wheelies any time soon. In fact, I dont think this would really aid in doing wheelies that much. Plenty of cars doing wheelies with the motors in the front...if that is what you are building the car for.

G8's are rear wheel drive. Pretty sure the motor and transaxle that he installed are doing just fine...even though its not a "cross mounted LS3".

Just sayin..

Hey Dave, any plans for another re-build? Or is the car where you want it and where its going to stay?

I think I speak for everyone when I say a couple videos of that beast would do QUITE well on this forum. Even just an exterior shot with some good sound samples of the exhaust. This is VERY unique and just a great project.

BTW...how tall are you? haha. I noticed the motor compartment firewall is pretty far forward at the sail panels. I know where my seat sits (I'm 6'5) and there is no way I could even drive the car I dont think!

J.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

The firewall looks to be a few inches aft of the B-pillar's from the pics i have. Thirdgens do have problems with people over 6ft tall.


The 180* headers make the BBC sound exotic and sweet too.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Yeah thats why I wanna hear her! Just something different. I suppose I could find a jet boat or something with a similar motor and 180* headers maybe. But Ide rather hear it coming from a thirdgen thumping off of asphalt than in the water!

I actually LOVE my car as far as comfort. I have tons of room, but sit with the seat back pretty far. Its probably the car that Im most comfortable in. The 4th gen seats, tilt wheel, and more head room from the t-tops doesnt hurt either!

J.