customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

looks good 1meanZ. wat roll bar is that? S&W? looks like a better fit than the CEE one that i have. welds look fine, and they dont have to be welded by a certified welder, specs state that for NHRA approval that they can be welded as long as the welds have good penetration, the cage must be min thinkness of .120 at the bends, so tubing would have to be .133" which is wat most cages are. they check this with a sonic thickess tool (if the track does this and are this picky) but the welds can not be altered in any way... whcih means u cant grind them down to make them look better. this will fail immediatly. ALSO u can not weld the cage/roll bar with flux wire, which u obviously havent.

most of the cage points look sound except where the hoop mounts to the floor. ppl tend to weld them in there bc it allows the hoop bar to be tucked into where the door/speaker panels are which allows for a cleaner install so it cant be seen as easy from the outside of the vehicle. this is NOT the strongest part to weld to, since the steel is the floor pan thickness which is like 22 gauge. if you moved the mounting plates up like 5" u would have been at a MUCH stronger point (where the rear subframe is spotwelded to the floor pan (the large formed steel that makes up the LCA/rear subframe mount). pretty easy to tell, just smack it with ur knuckle and u can hear the difference. this would however put the hoop bar farther foward about 5" and would make the hoop bar seen from the outside. the rear bars look fine but i would have liked to see them moved outwards about 1-2" to include more of the upper shock mount. this is again a stronger point bc curved steel is stronger than flat steel. a curved piece in the 6x6" plate would increase the strength and tie it into the stronger stock curved steel as well. but it looks good.

ppl that mount the rear bars like lowflyr https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...s-img_4778.jpg

have acutally missed the strongest mounting point, therefore sacrificing the integrity of the roll bars strength.

your hoop bar is soo close to the inside i doubt ull get the interior back in by the speakers. this is a nice fitting hoop bar but u will have issues getting the interior in at these points.

heres how i did my roll bar, my rear plates are close like yours but i tried to incorporate mine into the shock mount alittle more. i tried to make as many bends in the plates as i could for increased strength. i also TIG welded mine in, 2 passes to max strength. again these welds dont really photograph well, but there is a roll of coins there.

lowflyr

Blackbird,
For the record, my main hoop is welded to my rear control arm mounts with the main hoop bar directly over the LCA mounting bolt. You can't see that in the picture you reference. There is nothing to gain by mounting it any further forward. Missing this point by being too far ahead will lose the direct tie-in that I have with the forces coming up the lca. Not a big deal, but the closer the cage mounts to your rear suspension mounts, the less strain is put on the car body, which is a good thing. My rear bars also mount directly over the spring perches, thats not a coincidence either.


1MeanZ,
Sounds like you've got it right, and you're doing the right thing by talking with your engineer friends. As one myself, I am happy to see your going the route of tying them into the mainhoop crossbar (harness bar). As I mentioned earlier when I suggested tying the diff mount to your main hoop at either end of the crossbar, it will dramatically reduce stresses on the rear of the car.

Keep up the good work,

-Brad.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

delete

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

1meanZ, im not saying what u did was wrong. the cage looks good and sound. i did not see that it was built to SCCA rules. and thats fine, i was stating it should be minimum thickness of .120" at the bends to pass NHRA, which requires a .133" wall tubing, this was intended for the person asking about the cage requirements to pass, i assumed he was referring to NHRA.

lowflyr... not gona argue about this, this is 1meanZs thread. i can not see anything from the pics u posted of the LCA mounts. the LCA mount and the rear subframe start out as a large peice of formed sheet metal. this metal is then spot welded to the thin floor pan/rear section, this creates a weak imitated frame (looks like a U with a flat top= [l <- like that). The LCA mount is this "one large formed steel" yes the steel is thicker than the floor pan, i believe the floor pan is 22gauge. im guestimating that the LCA mount is 1/16" to 3/32" thick. the hump that 1meanZ welded too is like a bubble with nothing but air inside it, between the thin 22 gauge steel and the lower rear LCA/rear subframe.

pic one shows where i mounted directly to the floor pan and directly to where the LCA/rear subframe steel is laying flat against eachother. i essentially sandwiched the floor pan to the LCA mount with the main hoop 6x6 plate. there is NO space between the main hoop plate and the LCA/rear subframe steel at this spot. mine is blue box. your style 1meanZ is the yellow box and im assuming lowflyr as well. this allows the hoop to be pushed back farther. but its welded to an area of the floor where there is a HUGE amount of space between the floor pan steel and the LCA/rear subframe steel. this imitates a "frame" by creating space between the steel with spotwelds but is not as effective as a frame. the large pink box shows how the LCA and Rear subframe are 1 peice of formed steel that is spotwelded to the floor pan. basically a U formed steel to a flat floor plan imitates the frame, this is weak. essentially u welded to the 22 gauge sheet metal and not the actual LCA/subframe. even tho the hoop plates are curved ur still welded to a thin steel floorpan. i also drilled holes and welded from underneith to the main hoop plate also to further connect to the 3 sandwhiched pieces of steel.

second pic is a better pic of this "space" between the floor pan that you welded to and the imitated rear subframe. its odvious from the pic that the steel is weak, again i would assume 20-22 gauge steel here as well. the pink shows the plate that i have welded and yours is the green. mine also ties into the rocker as well.

3rd pic, yellow is u and pink is me. your bars are at a weaker point, the top of the spring pocket is not as stiff as the area where the shock mount/spring pocket are welded, if u looked at the pics in my thread i attached before your would see the plate that is THICK (compared to the rest of the are) where the shock is mounted, this is what i tied into. not to mention attaching to a curved peice of steel is much stonger than the flat area you attached too. the rear springs are weak, 107lbin rate so the amount of flex created by them doesnt require a beefed up upper spring mount. not to mention that the spring NEVER gets even close to the area u welded to, the upper spring cup does not get to the rear cargo area floor pan. the perch is actually located farther below.

im not exactly sure how u can weld the hoop directly to the LCA mount when the LCA mount is on the underside of the car, the top part of the LCA is again thin floor pan steel. unless u made your own LCA mount out of rectangle steel tubing and welded it into the car, then attached the main hoop plate to the rectangular steel (through the floor pan), otherwise still welded to floor pan steel. and not the actual LCA.

im not saying your cages arent strong, just food for thought, there are stronger areas to attach too. the rear LCA mounts are still weak to me, the are one large piece which ties the rear subframe and LCA over a wide are to to disburse the load which is why they dont rip out bc they are flimsy.

again simply smack the area you welded to and u can hear the difference.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

well has luck would have it..there is no X marks the spot to install a Roll bar, just how it's done is all, and He has done it the way the rule book says.. add side bars to that and if you wanted your Good to 9.99. not that you would drag race.. But if you wanted you should pass tech.. good job 1MeanZ

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

never said he did it wrong, its just food for thought. he did a really good job, it looks great. the hoop fits perfectly and it should turn out nicely.

wat door bars u gona run? swing out kit? just make sure the door bars pass between your shoulder and elbow while sitting with your hands on the wheel

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

delete

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Bent bars won't be nearly as bad if you support the bend, triangulating them into the rest of the cage.

lowflyr

1MeanZ,

Alot of people argue the same points you do about the other options out there. The truth is, the bent bars are even more of a PITA if you fit tight in the car normally. They do not flex all over the place or anything, the loads in the car won't be enough to make any perceptable difference with them, their only benfit is clearing stock armrests. Swing out bars are far from useless, they do not have any noticacble "slop" when installed correctly.

There is no notable chassis stiffness differences between the three options, but ultimate strength for a crash would favor the single welded straight bar. Be careful not to confuse a designs' ultimate strength with the stiffness, or rather the degree to which the overall chassis stiffness will be affected. They are not the same thing, and definietly not directly related.

I only say this because straight welded bars are a major P.I.T.A. on the street, particularly if you're over 6'. Its doable, but man it sucks the fun out of just taking the car for a short run to the store. I opted for swing out bars, they can easily be removed on the street for cruising if desired. The good news is, you don't have to make your mind up right away, since cutting the side bars and adding the swingout kit can easily be done later if so desired. Its all a personal preference anyway.

Blackbird,
You are obviously knowledgable about the construction of these cars and how to make a cage work well in them. BUT, respectfully, you have no idea what lengths I've gone though to ensure direct connections in these areas. I have an extension from the top of the rear spring perches to the mount plates for the rear cage, its definitely stronger than relying on the thin sheetmetal subframe as most people do. I have also cut though the inner floor for the main hoop mounts, and tied into the LCA mounts directly. There is a 6x6 plate visible on the floor of the car that the cage mounts to is not relying on the open 'frame' of sheatmetal as you have stated. I did it this way to indeed put the cage to a more visually pleasing location, to give me room in the car (I'm 6'), but mainly so that once the SFC's are installed, they will be as close as a direct connection to the cage as possible at the LCA. You opted for a different route, but you should not be so quick to assume that others haven't done their homework and modified appropriately. As far as I am concerned, there is noting to debate, you tied in to stock locations, I tied into modified locations. There will not likely be an appreciable difference between the cars structurally.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

i agree with lowflyr on the door bars, i oringally welded in the door bars as solid bars, i then tried to get in and out of the car to find the best way. NO WAY is that even worth the PITA, i guess if the car is a dedicated autox/drag car the effect wouldnt be so bad, but driving the car on the weekends will even be a chore. i opted for the CEE swing out kit, i didnt like how the S&W one looked. the bars are removable but the bars swing out nicely and when attached (if u get the clearances tight) the bar will be solid. hitting my door bar feel like hitting the hoop almost. Im 6'1" and its a PITA to get into a our cars with solid door bars. esp if the car is lowered etc.

I agree lowflyr, both roll bars are done correctly. and im sure there is no structual differences to be felt within the 2. i would love to see some of the pics of the install so i could see how u did it. im planning to do a perimeter style SFC to connect into my current thru floor subframes, mainly bc i want to increase the structure of the rear LCA mount to the body. its too flimsy for my liking. i will be going with 1x2" tubing at .120" thick for the new SFC. it is hard for me to see anything in the pics u posted, if the pics were more accurate i would have not assumed anything. post pics bc im looking for ideas to tie into the roll bar as well.

lowflyr

Blackbird,
My car is partially reassembled, with interior, suspension blah blah back on it. There isn't any way to get decent pictures right at the moment. I only have what I had taken before. Once I have the remaining parts to put the driveline in place I'll finish the mock up and then be tearing the car back down to the unibody to go back on the rotisserie for final paint. I can send you some better interior pictures then.

For the rear area over the spring perches, there was a hole cut in the floor, a small 1/8" thick plate inserted on top of the spring perch and welded, then a piece of rectanguler 3/16" thick (can't remember the dimension, thinking 1.5" square or something) square tubing welded on top of that extended flush up to the floor. The piece was then welded back into the floor flush, but with holes drilled about 1/2" apart around the perimeter of the square tubing. This gives direct weld points from above to the support. Once the 6x6 was laid on top there were corresponding holes drilled to give access to plug weld the plate to the support, ans then the plate was welded around the perimeter as per usual. The plug welds were ground smooth, then the roll cage welded onto the plate. None of this is visible now of course.

For the main hoop mounts, a similar approach was taken, with holes cut, bracing inserted, welded and brought up to be accessed by the floor plate and the cage welded on. To make this look clean inside, the floor plates were first tacked into place, then I used acetylene to heat and form it to the floor's original lines. The plate was removed for the hole to be cut and the same approach taken as on the rear mounts. Perhaps the view from below looking into the LCA mount would show the plate in there. I'll have to see when the car is disassembled again. I did not thnk when I was doing this that I should take pictures, there isn't alot of pictures for any of the cage install.

As mentioned, the car is only in a mock fit but I'll attach a picture for you to see the current state.

-Brad.

RED_DRAGON_85

just curious, why not do something like this...

iroc a 86 berli

^the door bar must pass between the shoulder and elbow.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

delete

lowflyr

When do you figure you'll have it sitting on its own wheels again?

BTW,
I priced a salvage yard up here in NS Canada for a dana44 c4 irs, complete including brakes......they want $1800, no guarantess. wow.

I was also told at the yard that the c5 and c6 rear diffs are not as strong as the dana44's. They are selling alot of c5/c6 diffs. Double wow.

I'm going to have to do more searching before I find a decent priced dana 44 I guess.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

delete

lowflyr

Geez, sounds like I should have picked up the one I was looking at last year for $850. I didn't realize the deal I was getting I guess....I'll keep looking for now, since I think the c5/c6 rear setup isn't really a decent option anymore. Too much cutting, for not enough strength in the c5/c6 setups.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

delete

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

Im installing side bars into my camaro. they are going to be the swing out type.. with this catch at the tope end.. bolted at the bottom.

the door bar will be shaped to fit in tune with the arm rest.

floor Mt of swing out

the floor Mt ties into my rocker panle.. rocker panle is tied into the SFC.
this will be done one driver and pasngr side.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

looks great 1meanZ! its def strong enough lol. i just get get over how thick that plate is u fabbed up for the rear. 3/16" right? wow... how much weight do u think u added to the car.

articwhiteZ... those door bars use the best design of swing from what ive seen available. they cap the tube and the clevis ends are strong and help resist the twisting. they also offer the best bolting situation at the bottom half. problems im seeing is if there is any slop it wont slide nicely into the part that mounts at the hoop. bc the tolerances are so tight, and a small area to get lined up. they are also mucho $ compared to 35$ CEE ones. im running the CEE ones, theyre certified to 9.99s.

mine fit tight enough and are easy to line up. moving around to line up the bar when ur sitting in a tight drag seat is not easy lol. ive figured out a way to put the pin in and pull it out easier than other ppl have in my car lol

edit: figured out its 9gauge steel...thats 0.1495" thick lol so thicker than a roll bar and alittle thinner than 3/16" thats good enought

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

yes a buddy of mine has the same set in his car..
we had to hand work them with emery cloth. to smooth the sharp edgs down,then sent them off to had the ends Hard chromed before welding.makes for a chip proof finnish on the ends.
we did that to the the upper pin part.. and then installed/welded them with alum pins pressed into place of the bolts and pins.100% no slop. we then took C clamps and pressed out the alum pins. and installed the bolts and they are as smoth as glass. to work..
and No the makers dont tell you to do this..

we then used a leather boot to cover his lower bolt.show thing.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Here are the pics of the cracks on the pass. side subframe rail. I examined them with a 12.5x lens, and sure enough, there is a small, hairline fracture at each location. They also refuse to hold a layer of paint. Whenever I clean and paint them, the paint just flakes off again. Makes me wonder if they should be drilled and welded?

lowflyr

Dimented,
If you see cracks in your subframe, you should drill a small hole at either end of the crack and weld it. If the crack is very short in length, a simple hole to drill it out will do the trick. The end of the crack are where all the stress is, and if they started to crack ,then they will probably continue to crack. I've had few of these cars stripped down now, and I have to say I've never seen that before. There was an impurity in the floor pan of the iroc, and it came out with blasing leaving a very tiny jagged hole, so I drilled it out, and tacked it back in to seal it.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

wow.. how the hell did u even find that! where on the pass side is that? why drill them and weld them. why not just grind it and weld it and then smooth it down if your worried about looks. also you could just hit it with a cutoff wheel, cut a small line and tack it back together.

i would never find a crack like that even if i was looking.

ericjon262

1meanZ, the jungle gym is starting to come together, looks nice!

ArticwhiteZ, where did you get those door bars? are the completely 1 off custom or did you buy those? I like them, the look tough as nails!

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

they are from carcrafts story on there roll bar install.

These are prob the best swing out kit ive ever seen
https://www.appliedracing.net/produc...40b9df35e47309
but pricey at 120$ for each side i would get these in a heart beat if i had the money to blow or do it again. tho these prob add alot of weight to the car too.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

your talking 3lbs for the 2 sides if that.(but) they are spendy..
also Notice they welded just a toung to the main hoop in the photos.(not talked about) makes for a easy install.
or you can install a piece of tube. and add the toung end to it..(SEE KIT PHOTO)
https://www.appliedracing.net/produc...40b9df35e47309

another swing out Kit is this one (one of the better looking) ones of this type. at about $55 ea set you will need 2 sets to do both sides of the car.

http://outlawmotorsports.us/index.ph...d=10&Itemid=11

this one takes a bit more work to get set up right..angle wise..
but do one and the rest is cake...

the nice thing is..if you have a welded in side bar now,..you can upgrade to ANY OF THEM and its EASY!! to install..

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

http://outlawmotorsports.us/index.ph...d=10&Itemid=11

this is essentially the same as the CEE ones i put on that i posted in my pic. only diff is that these have hard edge bends. where the CEE ones are round and are better off for complete welding. fits better to the roll bar as well. check the pics i posted in number #220

these are the CEE ones
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CEE-3182/

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

delete

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

very nice. its gona look stock too which is the coolest part.

roll bar looks good to. now lets see it all back together

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

1MeanZ:
Looks Good

Can you get a few photos of what your door bars look like?

Door closed looking down into the car windows open.

would like to see what you have for room with the armrest.

Thank you

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

delete

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

delete

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

delete

RED_DRAGON_85

amazing work.
lol... nice ground clearance there.

CaliChevyLover

wow!

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

So the pinion angle bites you in the rear, I was forbidden to reply in this thread but I did mention this in one of my replies. You should have moved the transmission up as far as possible without cutting the tunnel, measure the angle and then set the rear the same and fabricate a mount that allowed shimming to adjust the pinion angle. Post #50.. Hate to say it but I told you so.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

The pinion is angled down 2*. adjustable pinion height is a bad idea because it puts the batwing bushings in a bind if you have to adjust it up or down from it's home position. I'm using poly bushings and they don't deflect hardly at all. Also, if the diff is angled, that also angles the camber links so that they don't swing straight up and down. The top plates on the Tremec trans are also part of the problem, another trans might not have required tunnel cutting.

The reason you were forbidden to post is because you're an a$$hole. This post is clear evidence. Sorry guys, this thread is done....

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

There is more than enough deflection in the stock bushings, you can angle the thing up and down over more than 10 degrees without issues. The fact that you used poly bushings complicates the matter and you should have either compensated for that with the mounting bracket or slotted the holes on the front side so you can change the angle and pull the bolt tight afterward.

The camber lnks never swing straight up and down, they have a dynamic instantaneous center that forms the virtual swing arm and their placement is such that it reduces the anti squat to a certain degree and minimizes the yaw of the hub.

Thanks for calling me an a-hole, I appreciate it. Since we're naming names here, you are an ignorant fool since you could have avoided this problem by listening to some people instead of only posting to get praise from your worshipers. If pointing that out here makes me an a-hole so be it. Show how spineless you are that you're calling it quits now that your failure is evident. You fail to realize that I was trying to be helpful all along.

And as far as forbidden to post, who the hell do you think you are to tell me what I can or can't do. You seriously overestimate yourself and your authority.

Have a nice day.

iroc a 86 berli

you killed the thread!

ericjon262

this thread just won epic fail award of the year.

1meanZ, if you don't want someone's advise, don't listen, problem solved.

twin turbo, if someone doesn't want you advice, don't try to rub it in when you think you were right.

this forum is full of crybabies and buttholes.

Is that better joe? I hope you give everyone else who does that points too, singling someone out because you don't agree is kinda childish.

RED_DRAGON_85

well, everything is gone.
was that really necessary?

BPWilliams

Well he who has the power to givith, has the power to taketh... What a shame we can't be more civil about this post, there was some good information here, good or bad. Now nobody has the chance to learn (good or bad) from this post.

Grow - up! not - out!

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

You've GOT TO BE F'ING kidding me?!?! I was really enjoying this thread..not to mention feeling somewhat inspired. I cant beli... Ugh..nevermind. What a shame...

J.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

Thats to bad.. that was alot of work. (&Photos)

the name calling was Funny..you cant Do that on the Net.
without fall Out, of some sort..

you have to be a thick skined, to post things your doing on the net.

there will always be the Guy, who Will **** you off.. right or wrong.
this is a Fact! just take it in stride. and move forward.

always look at what others say..they might be right, even if they end up wrong.. or right, never let it get to you. use it,

remember you dont Keep the trash.. it gets smelly after Time..

and at the end of the day. it's your car.. not theres.

Dont let it Get You Down..


sorry if anybody cant sleep over my post.
but if i got to live with a 2 point ding for 10 days..im not going to edit the post!!

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Was a good post Stupid to deprive the guys who want the good info and pic's because of some people giving opinions/advice. If you can't take the bad with the Good you shouldnt be on the net posting on forums. Because there will ALWAYS be someone bashing what ya do. Good or bad.


Glad I saved all 5 pages....lol. (All info and pic's.)

ericjon262

want to repost the info for us?

RED_DRAGON_85

beat me to it ericjon.

ericjon262

Hell, I'd be happy if he just posted the pictures!

92purplehaze

iTrader: (8)

submit it to failblog.org