I have a 9" housing and was considering installing ladder bars... thus not needing the torque arm.

Competition engineering makes subframe connectors with a ladder bar cross member. I was wondering if anyone had advice or pics of them installed.

I was thinking I should be able to reuse the shock and spring mounting pads by welding them to the 9" housing.

One other question, I was wondering the width of a 3rd and 4 the gen axle.

 

9" housing was from a 1970 F150. I moved all the mounts from a 10 bolt onto the 9" housing. Unknown brand ladder bars but I had to add the safety straps at the front. I installed a custom crossmember between the custom SFC but had to notch/section the floor for the ladder bars to pass through. The front mounts were inside the car so I made boxes over them. More pictures of the installed ladder bars are on my web site.



This is still for sale but it's a local pickup only. Includes 31 spline Strange axles with big bearing ends and 1/2" screw in wheel studs. Factory 4.11 gears with factory posi, ladder bars. $1000

 

I have the Competition engineering makes subframe connectors but have not switched to ladder bars. From the bottom of the subframe there are 2 mounting holes and bolts for install.

 

If you were to install ladder bars to the cross member, does it look like the body would have to be modified to clear the ladder bars.

I see looking through Stephen 87 IROC's pictures on his web site that the rear seats would have to be removed or modified and behind the front seats there's a major floor pan change. But that is a fabricated cross member.

Could you possibly get me a pic of the subframe connectors installed so i can see their aspect to the body.

 

The weld in connectors require cutting apart the entire floor apart for install.
I think the bars would clear the back of the body but if your planning installing the connectors its not a small job. That said I will be installing these again when I build another camaro in the future. The chase flex is gone.

 

Cutting up the body wouldnt bother me. Biggest thing im curious about is retaining as much of the stock interior as possible or make it look stock.

I like having someone look at my cars exterior and interior not knowing that their is lots of work done to it.

 

The seats still fit but the subframe comes up about 1.5 inch above the old floor pan. It could be covered with carpet but if you know what stock looks like you'll know its not. When I get my car back from the shop I'll get some pics for you. It will be a week or two. Send me a PM if I don't post it up soon ( if I forget)

 

The trouble with a third gen is that the floor pan sits very low in relation to the axle when compared to other types of cars. This low floor pan makes suspensions like ladder bars difficult to install without floor modifications.

 

ok, i see this all the time. people want to cut up the floor and underside of the car. since these are unibodies, the floor and underside is where all the strength is, so if you cut it up, you are losing strength and durability. always remember, these cars don't have a frame, so i wouldn't cut apart the bottom of the car. heck, even aftermarket sunroofs decrease the strength of the car.

 

If you replace what you remove with something stronger wouldnt you be making the structure stronger.

If I install the subframe connectors and cut up the floor as said, I would like to tie them into the front transmission support like the double diamond style for the 4th gen cars.

 

just because the axle is stronger doesn't mean the entire car is stronger.......

 

I saw ladder bars welded in to a 3rdgen years ago at a junkyard.
Didn't look like any floor cutting was involved.

 

Were not talking about the axle, If you read your first post we were talking about the floor pan and the overall structure of the body.

You even mentioned how installing a sunroof in the car and reduce structual rigidity which is very true....

Why whould I think that replacing my axle would make my entire car stronger??

 

Nevermind, you have no idea what im talking about, and frankly its not even worth it. forget i even posted here.

 

If you are cutting the floor to add a big beefy FRAMERAIL and CROSSMEMBER you aren't losing anything you are gaining a FRAMERAIL!!!!!!! And for that matter ladderbars don't make the axle any stronger, just makes for a ladderbar suspension rather than a torque arm suspension and opens up the tunnel for some pipes.

 

I have a fab 9 under my iroc with chris alston adjustable ladder bars, and pan hard. Its a "typical" drag radial set up for these cars. Mine does have the floor notched for laddder bar clearence, and the sub frame goes throung the floor. Just like stated earlier, the sub frame rail is about 1.5 inches insid ethe car. I alsohave the outside of the oem rear frame rail sectioned for tire clearence. I run either a 315/60/15 , a 10.5 w, or if I try I can get a 13.5 et street in there.

You do basically need to add a cross member and go to a coil over/ shock set up, but thats pretty easy. Just do the cross member, set you ride hieght then scale the car, then order your shock/spring set up to acheive your ride hieght with your mount points.

I dont like the sub frame connector protruding into the cabin, but its a nes evil, and Im tall, so I need the seat as low as possible. Strenght.....the car gets a flat tire, and you could almost change it with out even a jack, but the cage probably helps stiffness too...LOL

 

1320jon - Do you have any pics of ladder bars installed also, Im also intrested in the sectioning of the factory framerail you did.

I used to run 315/35r17 my bump stops are removed and inner fenderwells were rolled still rubbed a little over big bumps.

If I could get 315's and ladder bars all at once...

 

I got a few more.... these obviously are before the springs and shocks, you can still see the solid stock, and no driveshaft etc. It has a 40 spline, fab 9, aerospace brakes, aluminum third member with 3.25 gears and a steel spool.

 

more pics.

 

That looks about exactly the way I did my car when I had ladder bars. There are still pictures on my web site.

 

Stephen, wish you were closer to Ontario, I would be interested in the ladder bar rear end assembly.

I just spoke with a friend that has been drag racing a 3rd gen for many years to see what he was using. He uses a ladder bar setup with a 9" ford 28 spline, finally broke an axle last year(11.99/12 car). He had to modify the floor a bit for his setup, boxed it back in and was able to put the back seats in after.

I hope to get a look at his setup soon and maybe take a few pics.

 

Fellows I have a question on 3 link ladder bars. I am over 60 yrs old been out of the loop for 35 yrs but use to build lots of factory sprung street racers back in my day. However things have changed. I decided to build one more hot rod before bucket time. I have a 1930 chevy seddan 2 door that I am hanging a 73 lincoln 9" rear end under. I rumaged around and came up with a cheap but complete set of Competition Engineering Ladder bars. These ladder bars look to be maybe 20 25 yrs old. Tell me this can I use just the ladder bars to push the car with and add a couple straight bars to the top of the housing and then to the frame in a triangulated configuration so as to keep the rear end located properly under the car? I guess I should have measured the tubes on these bars, but they are at least one inch in dia. or better, have himes style ends on all three points with heavy duty fine thread bolts through the eyes and self locking nuts. I realize I will hace to add a few bars to keep the housing centered. But my main concern is the strength of the one single link at the front of the ladder bars being able to handle the forces when I jump on this thing. It will have a built up big block engine with a lot of goodies. Your thoughts plase

 

Unlike a 4-link or proper 3-link, ladder bars are solidly mounted on the diff. The ladder bar doesn't pivot at the diff. The front mount is a pivot point as the diff moves up and down. Ladder bars simply need a locater to keep them from moving side to side. The most common locater is a diagonal link but a panhard bar, wishbone or watts link all do the same thing.

Trying to add a top bar similar to a 3-link onto a ladder bar suspension will cause it to bind.

 

Using top bars will cause binding even though full swivel type himes ends are used on both ends of the top bars?
I looked at a couple setups on line where there is a diagonal bar attached from the inside front of one ladder bar then run to the inside rear of the opposite bar. Granted this is good triangulation and will stiffen and square the ladder bars, it just looks weak to me in actually locating and keeping the rear end located. Plus what looks weaker is the fact I will be driving the car off of two little 3\4 inch bolts at the front of the ladder bars on either side of the frame.
Times were simpler when I was running heavier leaf sprung cars with a set of slapper bars hung under them.
At first the three link ladder bars excited me in that coupled with small light weight coil springs were definitely going to be lighter than my old tri 5 chevy leaf sprung setups. I just can not get my head wraped around the fact that the two little 3\4 inch bolts on the front of the ladder bars will be strong enough to push the car forward when I un leash 4 to 5 hundred hp with out something winding up looking like a pretzel. Are there anyone on here that is actually running a similar setup using big block power and 10" slicks as I intend on doing? I sure would feel better knowing some one has done this and it didn`t break. I sure don`t want to build anything that binds the system as everything I have read indicates a bound system is going to damage parts.
Tough trying to make chicken salad using chicken S--- freebie parts,lol.

 

Yes. Since ladder bars are solid on the axle, they pivot on the front mount. This means the axle moves in an arc and the pinion angle will always be in relation to the ladder bar pivot point. Having top bars means the axle cannot move any closer to the upper frame mounts of the top bars as the axle moves upward than the bars allow therefore they will bind. By adding top bars to a ladder bar system, you've made a solid suspension since it won't allow the diff to move up or down.

With a proper 3 or 4-link system, all the ends are free to move. While the axle moves up and down, it will travel in a slight arc but will also rotate keeping the pinion if roughly the same position. Since that angle doesn't change, no binding will ever occur. By the time you get into an angle where it may bind, you've got more serious problems.

My 4-link uses four 3/4" bolts. When I launch, the upper two are being pulled apart and the bottom 2 are being pushed together. Better 4-link systems offer more adjustment holes and only use 5/8" bolts.

The chance of the 3/4" bolt ever breaking on the front of the ladder bar is very slim however the heim joint itself threaded into the tube can break. That's why anyone using ladder bars has to have a safety retainer around the 3/4" bolt. If the heim joint breaks, the retaining strap will keep the ladder bar from dropping down and digging into the pavement.

 

any body on here tried mini ladder bars or pete z bars?

 

Thanks for the explanation. It does make sense now. I guess for what I am doing I`ll be better off using leaf springs. I noticed some options for traction aids that will compliment leafs. I am doing this project with a young person and trying to show him that a hot rod can be built with out it costing an arm and leg, which is the most important part of the project for me These ladder bars were freebies and was thinking I could make use of them, but not by themselves. But, I just do not trust ladder bars alone with big block torque and slicks. Looks like I`ll be a little bit on the heavy side in the rear. I have a couple sets of leaf springs, Ranger p\u and a set out of an old chrysler. Thank you for your time and info

 

Ladder bars can be used with leaf springs. You just need to use a floater kit for the springs.

The old school slapper bars for leaf springs will work but there's so much axle wrap with leaf springs, it only causes more wheel hop. The best option is for something like caltracs www.calvertracing.com There are a few different brands but they all do the same thing. With leaf springs, they act like the lower tubes of a 4-link system.

The third gen's torque arm system has nothing for traction devices. Better LCA and torque arm and LCARB is all our cars need.

 

I tried ladder bars on my 84 ta and was not impressed at all, The off line launch was MUSHY and 60 foot times was hurting bad. Got the spohn torque arm with the torque arm mount on the crossmember and was very happy with the results. IMO if you lose the torque arm you lose a lot of weight transfer and character of the car. Granted it is not a torque monster 800 horse small block but for the street driving and strip once in a while it is what works for me.

 

how much wheel backspace did you use

 

1320jon how much wheel backspace are you using

 

 

I actually managed to sell that to someone. It was exactly what they wanted.

 

would it be possible to move stock springs to inside of frame rails and run afuel cell

 

I wouldn't recommend it. The stock springs fit under the heavy gauge frame rails. To move them inward means the thinner sheetmetal would have to hold the car up. Anything is possible if you do enough fabrication work.

 

The diagonal link is super cheap and effective, its what I used.

Think about it a bit though... If you have a driveshaft failure you are almost guaranteed to bend the diagonal link which will move he rearend side to side.... Bad things guaranteed.

A better solution is a wishbone, but its more expense and difficult to install.