Bishop

I am trying to set up my 85 camaro for street strip, or somewhere between a road course vehicle capable of handling some cornering, and drag strip for the straight shoot out.

4 link and ladder are not gong to get the job done since they are both going to seriously bind during any cornering.

I heard of 3 link and decoupled 4 links. Will any of these work? If so, how do they work? I am trying to back half this vehicle to fit a pair of 15x33 under this car. Can someone help me out here?

car_fixer

that is alot to ask, also 15 x 33 on a road course? that tall sidewall wont like that what other wheel would you run then 18 inch or 20 inch that wide, thats like a boat anchor....i am a little confused, however you could use a 3 link , but then at the strip it will roll alot if its able to lift the front it could get hairy quick, a 4 link with say a watts link to locate it using poly bushings would probably be a close comprimise but clunky and they wear quick. build it with tires that arent as tall or wide and you might get a allright car for both, but then there is no need to backhalf it since the torque arm works well in both places, the long instant center keeps it settled in turns and hooks good at the strip...alot less work too

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I’ll be the second to ask, if you want some of both why not stick with a torque arm setup?

sradams21

iTrader: (1)

I gotta agree with 82 Crossfire TA and car_fixer, stay with the factory-style set-up and just upgrade the components. The reason i say this is because road racing and drag racing are two completely differant animals. But that's just my 2cents

Bishop

Sorry guys. I guess I may have miscommunicated some of my intentions.
I really don't plan on plan on entering this car into official road races.
I just want the car to be able to handle somewhat on the road and corners.
It does not have to handle like a tuner car. I just don't want the car chasis to experience twisting thru a turn or worry about welds cracking because of set up. I also wanted to be able to take the car to the track. I do like the look of F-bodys when they are tubbed.

I can understand the logic in staying with the factory set-up. It does make sense. But to me nothing looks better than a good set of beefs under an F-body car. The stance is quite imposing. I would like to tub the car, and I know that requires back halfing it because of the positioning of the frame rails. And the mini tub is absolutely out of the question(with f-body I really can't consider that a tub at all). I may go with a marginally smaller tire.

I do thank you guys for the input you have shared with me thus far. I know what I am asking for is a pretty tall order because drag and road course are completely opposite end of the spectrum. But, which set up is going to get me the closest. If I went with a 3 link, would a anti sway bar help with roll at launch when wheels come off the ground?

Thanks guys.......For helping the idiot.....lol

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

I'd also have to agree with the Above and say your looking down the wrong path. I know you say no MINI Tubbs but you can do a little work in the inner wells and stuff a 315 or even larger under there. with a little work rather then a full tubb.

Do some good tubular LCA's and offset them inward more. A good adj. trq arm and PHR setup and you will achieve what you want. Adjustabe Coil overs in the rear will give you your adjustablity for auto-x/twistie roads and Drag racing at the track.


Im in the middle of a mini tubb project now. I have a mosre 9inch setup for a 4link. Ive already got the coil overs for front and rear. Im really considering welding back on some LCA brackets so it will be more streetable then the 4link.

Some good info and links to pic's in this thread...
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...t-started.html

AlkyIROC

That's 2 completely different chassis suspensions. To handle the road and corners, you don't want 15x33 tires. For straight line acceleration, the factory torque arm system works fine but a 4-link is the best although requires a lot more work especially to fit 15x33 tires.

I run 14x32 tires. I have enough room that I could squeeze some 16" wide tires under the fenders on my 15x15 rims but to go to 33" tall, I would need to trim more of the outer fenders.

Before I did my back half, I had typical inner fender modifications and was able to squeeze a 29.5 x 10.5 slick under the fenders mounted on 15x10 rims with 5.5" backspace. That's more than enough tire for most cars.

car_fixer

oh i see, then you can put a street 4 link in with poly bushings, however you will need another set of wheels with lower profile tires, and in those widths and sizes, theres like one option and its extreame dollars m/t makes some wheels that are big and wide, and tires to match, but your check book will need to be big and wide also. a three link will most likely break at the strip with 15/33's on it , too much stress on one bar, espicially if it is a slider , or sprung like some do

Bishop

Ok guys......So, should I understand that a (4 link with urethane bushing0 should be the order for this car with some lower profile tires like maybe
MT Sportsman Radial? I could live with that. How do you think the car would handle corners at moderate speeds with this set up? Also, a guy at
Art Morrison(a chassis specialist) told me to go with a Panhard set up.
This would seem to restrict lateral movement even more. Why would he make recommend like that. What is the function of a panard set up?

AlkyIROC

Fox body Mustangs and GM A/G body cars use a rubber bushing triangulated 4 link from the factory. They handle fine. The triangulated system doesn't need a panhard to keep the diff centered.

Your car already has a panhard bar. It's the bar that goes across the back of the diff. All it does is keep the diff centered under the car. There are many types of devices that do the same thing. A typical 4-link or ladder bar system uses a diagonal link. I use what's called a wishbone to do the same thing.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I guess I’m the only one here that feels that he’s not really clear on what you’re asking… do you want this thing to handle like a normal street car or better, or do you just want it drivable on the street with a 15x33” tire?

I’m not sure what so special about a 3 link that you have it set in your head, but it’s only really a common setup for road racing where you want the axle to move as freely as possible, restricted only by spring/sway bar rates and shock dampening, this is not a particularly good setup for drag racing unless you’re talking about something like a wishbone setup for the top link which acts as both a top link and a locator for the rear axle. Yes, you can take something like a traditional 3 link, add a drag racing style sway bar and get it to launch hard and straight, but at that point you’ve ruined that suspension’s handling capabilities and otherwise done things the hard way (ladder bars or a 4 link would have been simpler)

Secondly, the other reason that I’m somewhat confused is that you’ll have to not only make wheel tub/well modifications to fit something like a 15x33” tire, but unless you tuck it way in you usually have to modify the wheel opening which would look funny with a normal height, _wide_ tire that would handle well on the street.

Maybe clarify “turns and looks good” and “handle well” for us to give you a real answer.

The fact is that if this thing is going to live on 15x33’s, then just go ladder bar or 4 link and build a real drag race/pro street back half. The fact is that those big, soft tires give enough that even a ladder bar setup that would be stiff and unstreetable with street tires on it would be quite driveable with the big stickies on it.

Lets narrow down what you really want so we can narrow down the range of possible valid answers. Hell, there are dozens of ways that you can get from here to there with any specific end result that you might want as well as there are dozens of ways that say you could setup a 4-link and it’s geometry to optimize it for different conditions.

Bishop

Okay.....I think I want to do the drag radial thing. I would like to keep the car streetable. With that said I mean cornering like a vette, and the speed on the straight. Dont get me wrong here....I am really love the look of those big tires in the back. I also understand that 15x33 are going to be way to big. I am learning as I go here so thanks guys for all of your help with the new kid on the block.

So, let me ask this........If I were to go with a big low profile size drag tire(15x39), would that help get me the best of both worlds, and would I need to narrow the rear end, and tub as well.

Again, I want this car to rocket from launch, and be able to handle on the street as well. If I cannot have both, what will get me the closest to both.
I am not sold on either a 4link ladder or bar, or 3. I just want to know what options I have here.

Thanks

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

I say Keep it Simple.
What do your have in mid for ROCKET from a Launch?
1.4x 60 fts's or what?
Handle like a vette? a stock vette or a full suspentions modded vette?

Is this car gonna be an 80/20 car. 80% street 20% track or what???

I say just clearance the wells for a 15x10 with something like a 28x11.5 MT
and runs some 17x11's with a 315 radial for the street.

tubular lca's,etc...

keep it simple. !

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Well, there you’re butting up against reality…. The biggest low profile DR’s that exist that I know of are 305/35-18 (about 27x12.5”). There are bigger drag radials out there, but they’re heading back over into the big, fat tall things that won’t handle, and they’re still not as big as you’re talking about, the biggest that I know that are available are 325/50-15 (about 28x13.5, a couple of makers list 29 and 30” tall tires that are slightly narrower).

Now going back to that 305/35-18, I have a set of 295/35-18’s tucked under the back of my ’87 TA with minor wheel well mods. 305’s should fit without much more if any more work. The thing is that most drag radials will not let you “handle like a vette.” There are street radials that get up into the 345 range, but most of those are around 25.5” in diameter. If you’re really careful with your measurements tires into the 315 or so range will fit with only minor mods.

Honestly, so far, with any of those choices I’d suggest staying with the stock torque arm setup, which can be made to handle well as well as launch hard with very minor changes.

There are some bigger radials, like the MT sportsman S/R, and I think that hooser makes something similar, but they are not really intended to be a handling or a straight line tire, they’re basically middle of the road tires intended for street rods wanting to run large diameter wheels and still have the traditional stance with big,tall tires in the back. I suppose that you can do something similar with a set of SUV wheels/tires, but again, they would be big and heavy and not handle or do straight line particularly well. I suppose that you could do something like this on the street and swap it for a proper drag tire/wheel at the track, but the fact is that the wheels/tires in those sizes to start with will not handle like you want them to, and secondly, even if they did they will be so enormously heavy with so much rotational inertia that you’ll never get it to work right. It will even hurt stopping unless you mount _big_ brakes back there, and then you won’t be able to go back to a traditional drag tire on a 15” wheel. If that is what you want to do then since it will never work right to handle, I’d just go with a 4link with a panhard rod and accept the fact that you either tune it for OK performance on the street or great performance at the track.

I’m not trying to be difficult here, just what you’re talking about doesn’t exist so the reality is that you’re going to have to give somewhere unless you have $$$$ and can get someone to make you some custom tires.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

I agree and disagree...

Im talking have 2 diff. sets of rims. I mean really he wants 2 diff looks/rides here.
You can achive both with 1 suspention setup. and 2 sets of rims/tires.

Look at ricks car below. Runs 6's on a DR with all BMR suspention pieces and a decent size DR. Now toss some Nice 17's and a good street tire and Id guess it would handle good also. (depending on spring rates here also)

http://www.cecoatings.com/images/oth...o9rearend2.jpg
http://www.cecoatings.com/images/oth...bo9rearend.jpg
http://www.cecoatings.com/images/oth...bo10trqarm.jpg

http://www.cecoatings.com/images/oth...20car%2022.jpg
http://www.cecoatings.com/images/oth...20car%2033.jpg


Now swap out those rims for some 17x11 17x9 or what ever he likes and a nice size 275 or 315 street tire and go hit the twisties on a nice weekend when he wants.

Toss some coil overs in the equasion for the adjustablility for street and drag and I think he would be happy with the outcome.

Id be more inclined to say 80/90% of the time he would have the street tires on and then toss on the slicks at the track or Out crusin around just so it looks the mean meats in the back like he wants.

Bishop

That sounds like a really good idea. That would kinda give me the best of both worlds. I really would like to keep any tire from sticking out however.

But, I am curious.........I understand now that if I shorten the rear end and stuff some real meats in the back that it is going to push the car in a turn when cornering....because of the weight of the meats and the configuration of the back half. What I don't understand is how the heck a corvette manages to stuff such big tires underneath the chassis and still manage to handle. Those things launch fairly evenly, and handle corners like the tires were made of extra strength fly paper or something. lol

Could someone explain to me how that works............

Appreciate everyones patience in working with me here.........

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

I think you will be just fine doing as said above and handle as good or better then a stock vette.

Hot Rod mag did a article years ago with a 91/92 Z with bolt on suspention.
lca's / phr / springs / TTII rims in 17x9 with 275/45/17 and out handeled a vette, and i forget what else on the skid pad and a few other tests. id have to dig the mags out to get the #'s etc...

Only thing it didnt out handle if i recall right was a viper.

with some good tires on street rims your handling should be fine. You sholdnt have to worry about pushing thru corners with a normal street tire.

Bishop

Holy crap......You mean to tell me the F-Bodies are Vette Killers....
Having said that you just may have sold me on not cutting into this car at all.
I sure would like to see that article.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

The 3rdgen F body is a awesome handeling car if setup right man. they make great drag cars also.

Let me try and dig it out. I know it was posted on this forum years ago. but there have been so many forum changes / updtaes who knows if its still around.

I'll do some looking around. Try a yahoo or google search for ZIG ZAG part 1 and 2. Prob wont come up with it as i said it was YEARS ago.

Bishop

Thanks TPl383....Man this is great.

This would mean that I actually picked up a Vette Killer for for $1000......
I am stoked now. I got a really good deal because the seller was going to jail and needed money quick for a lawyer. So, I gave him $1000 for it.
It's loaded with a built 350, headers, lowering kit, cowl hood, shaved doors.
I bought the car over a year ago and I have not really driven it much except one weekend a month if lucky.

I did not realize the suspension on these cars were that good. I have never driven a vette before so, I had no real way to understand that. But, I did know this car handled better than any other car I have ever driven.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Honestly, you’re mistaken about the tire size. All the modern ‘vettes have used something in the 275-315 range rear tires WRT to width, most under 26” tall, and smaller in the front. The 295/35/18’s(rear) and 265/40/17’s (front) that I’m running on my 87 TA with only minor mods are modern Z06 sizes on zo6 knockoff rims. The rears are about as difficult to fit as they get just because they’re a little taller than typical ‘vette tires.

WRT to outhandling a ‘vette… 3rd and 4th gen f-bodies, similarly equipped will pretty much be right there with the ‘vette. The vette will do it with more refinement mostly because of the lower unsprung weight of the independent rear. Bondurant and a couple of other driving schools tried vettes and f-bodies and found that although most drivers felt more comfortable initially behind the wheel of a vette, the camaros were easier to drive longer and you were less worn out after a few minutes of racing, and neither was faster than the other when similarly equipped. WRT to 3rd vs 4th gen f-bodies… the rear suspensions are identical (all parts interchange), the front on the 4th gens was redesigned to be more refined (actually done because over 60% of f-body buyers were women and they complained that the 3rd gen front suspension was too “in your face”/unforgiving), and lost some of the “I’m going to do exactly what you tell me to do like I was a go cart mounted on rails” feel that 3rd gens can achieve. 4th gens tend to be quite a bit heavier, up to about 600lbs for a fully optioned TA but most had better brakes, so it ends up being about a wash between them, I prefer the 3rd gens (I own both).

kscamaro89

iTrader: (1)

So are there any mods that you guys would suggest for setting up for drifting? I getting ready to install the 24 mm sway bar and upgrade the end links, but is coil-overs the last thing that I can do? Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks.