KillerRS

i went to install my spohn subfames connectors yestarday but imediatly ran into problems. when i went to mock up the drivers side the front of the sub frame was getting pushed out from the pinch weld from the fender mount tab in front of the rocker. i had maby a 1/8 inch gap toward the rear of the rocker and 3/8ths from the front of the rocker. At first tried pulling the tab out and i went and put on the fender but of course it pused the bottom of the fender out. So since that was out i had anouther option of c-notching the subframe a good 8 inches to totally clear the tab. Gotta love doing that to 200$ subframe connectors. so that took a good 2 hours to c-notch it and then i was done. mocked it back up and tig welded the bar that goes perpendicular to the front sub bar #1 done so far. So then i go onto the pasanger side. The way they have the bar that goes from the subframe to the connector is a joke. A little spot weld is all that is supposed to hold it on yeah right. I realise that it is for stock exhaust but im not gonna run anything close so i said f-that. I notched the tube and cut maby 3inches off it and go it lined up up and tach welded it. The clearance was goodsoi went ahead and tig welded the second bar on. I come back after it was done and noticed that somewhere along the line it got out of position so now i have a 1/4" gap from the crossbar to the subframe oh well beginners mistakes.Im just gonna weld a 1/4" plate to the subframe and the weld the crossbar to that, its not that big of a deal. So in these last two days i have realised that from now on im going to build my own subframes from now on.

buntnsteal10

hey dude, i feel ya. I just ordered spohns last week and i should expect to have them this week. but i am gonna take it to a muffler shop to have them weld it in. I hope the guys in that shop will know how to do it. Let me know how the ride is when you have them on Do they come with instructions in the box?

KillerRS

they come with instructions but they are useless to me Telling me to load the suspension and remove the drives side lower control arm. my car is stripped down to nothing. Overall im not to satisfied with the subframes, and would have built my own if I had not boughten them 2 years ago.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Weil cleetus if'n ya rekun yooze boughten dem too yeers agowe ya's mituh gawt yeerself ah seet thas wuz maade awder dee awld deezine.


Course your car also could have been wrecked before and tweaked, or its just installer error, or any combination.

Dont knock a product until you've installed it at least 3 times and on several different vehicles. Unless its something that CANT be screwed up.

KillerRS

umm no ill take picture to show you what im taking about, Its something straight forward. Even my instructors who have been building racecars for 25+ years said the design was ****ty

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

When I started reading this I was wondering why someone that could tig and has stuff to cut like that would have bothered to BUY a set of connectors…

As far as your problems, I’ve never seen a set that went right in, there’s always some gaps and other BS to deal with, and most places just use a jack, some clamps, big hammer… to get things where they need to be and weld away. The thing is that acceptable production tolerances are big enough that you could end up with a gap that is impossible to weld with nothing being wrong with the car or the connector. Some designs are more tolerant of this then others.

If things get really bad you end up resorting to bruit force, a tubing bender or worse… at one point I did a set that the easiest way to get them to fit right was to block them up in a specific position and park my truck on them to put a gradual bend in them…

KillerRS

Tell me about it, If i had not bought them over two years ago i would have just made my own. But since then the got alittle dinged up, and I didnt really feel like going threw the trouble of selling them, and i doubt spohn would have returned them because of the dings. Even if they did a 20% restocking fee would have stopped me.

I know what you mean, but when i bought them i read all the reviews here and they seemed like the best out there. I figure that spohn would have created a better product. Dont get me wrong i am a full spohn supporter, as you see in my sig all my suspension is spohn, and i plan on getting a spohn k-member and lca's when the package comes out. I just find it funny that with 50% of the fender attatchment point under the car on thirdgens is either bent or rusted away, that a manufacturer would run their subframes right past it. I mean they have a goof idea of tieing in the rockers and the subframes but you have a 1 3/4" tube running down the rocker, and a ~1" tube running from the rocker to the front subframe, That doesnt seem like a good idea to me, it should be the other way around.

I think they should make them like this

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

that's pretty much how GW makes theirs...

KillerRS

Whos GW?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

global west

KillerRS

The drivers side looks like they have the best idea, but the passanger side has me boggled, what ties the tube to the subframe?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

It ties into the area where the webbing ties into the front subframe, behind/above where the exhaust makes it’s turn. If it came back like the driver’s side there would be no good way to run the exhaust.

that steering box brace is the only large one that seems to clear everything, including the L98 dual fans...

KillerRS

Yeah true, thats why spohn ran that weak *** passanger side crossbar, it just doesnt see much like a sub frame connector to me, more like a sub-rocker connector. thats cool, but i wont be using one I am still tring to figure out why they put it in the picture with the subframes though.

fb305svs

i still like my hotchkiss ones....

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I still like the new tubular spohns, and alstons.

soulbounder

And I still think Kenny Brown beats them all.

Synapsis

And I think they're all tubing.

Mathius

I got rid of my '92 about a year ago, so its been a while since I've crawled under one, but I think this would be more efficient IF there's room.

A triangle design offers more stability than either of the other designs you showed there.

Mathius

Mathius

Forgot to post the picture....

lonsal

iTrader: (2)

Option 3 shown would be Alstons SFCs + Spohns SFCs.

Lon

KillerRS

someone should make them :hmm: ive got the capability

Synapsis

Psst, there's a floor in the way.

KillerRS

bend around it

soulbounder

Losing ground clearance sucks!

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Make them ? Lon already told you, that would be spohns AND alstons.

KillerRS

you buy both and pay 400$ ill build them and sell them for 200$

KillerRS

I still laugh every time i read this post, you are a a ****ing joke buddy how many have you installed

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Two sets of alstons, one set spohns. Notice I havent been whining about how they dont fit ?

I'd say the joke's around here would be those who whine about parts that dont fit, when they really do.

KillerRS

yeah they really fit real well , could they fit without mods yeah, but not properly so you sit behind your computer and think they fit 100% when this is what im learning to do for a living. If my instructors who have been building cars for 30+ years said these where a good design then maby i would follow your opinion, but for now i will stick with opinions of chassis fabricators rather than a computer tech

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

My gripe is that you are badmouthing a product which im quite sure you are using a product thats several years old, and im very sure it has been redesigned since, and I know for a fact that the new design fits very well as i've got a car with them sitting on the lift right now, your "chassis fabricators" are also either knocking an old design, which has since been made better, or too ignorant to accept the fact that the car could have been hit before, tweaked, smacked a curb or two, etc. I dont care how many years they claim they've been building cars again because they are either griping about an old design without researching it, or for some foolish reason cant install a simple set of subframe connectors.

As far as you making a set that would duplicate the spohns AND alstons for $200, I would love to see you pull it off, go ahead try it I dare you, when you are done please fax me a sheet of your costs, with your negative profit circled at the bottom.

Synapsis

I bought a set of Spohns in 2002, took them to the fab shop I work at, cleaned up the metal and welded them in. They fit just fine. The only problem I had was that the passenger side "sub rail" wouldn't fit behind my custom exhaust.

I think your car might be a little tweaked.

KillerRS

You will have to see pictures of what i am talking about, The car isnt tweaked at all as a matter of fact it was in a frame shop getting checked before the body was restored. The problem i ran into is where the fender gets bolted down in front of the rocker, the tab pushed the subframe out maby 3/8" tops. By notching it around the tab i am now able to sit it flush with the pinch weld

KillerRS

they may have been bought some time ago but they look identical to this picture from spohns website.


that right there shops your small amount of fabrication experience. I can buy 70 feet of 1 5/8 ERW tubing for $200. i could probably build a set for ~75 dollars from start to finsh probably less.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

And heres where I show your experience, lack thereof, or lack of research.

You stated that you can build and produce (and when I refer to produce I mean make readily available for customer purchase, not how cheap you *could* do something by getting handout materials etc) a set of subframe connectors that would be just the same as spohns and alstons combined. Which have been known to be a very viable way to create a tube frame under a thirdgen, for $200 a set.

Now heres the reality of what it will take to make each set, after you look this over, if you want I can provide you with pictures of the alstons since you already know what the spohns are like, and when you can readily produce them i'll take 5 sets personally, oh wait no I wont because you cant even install the spohns properly when I know for a fact they fit fine as i've got a car on my lift with them right now. Anyway onto the breakdown since you can pull all this off for $75 now.

The Drivers side Spohn subframe:
60" of tubing
1 bend at the rear.
1 cut plate with hole for lca bolt
1 weld around the perimeter of where the tube meets said plate.
1 14" brace tube to go from perimeter bar to trans mount area, notched at one end to properly match with main tube, opposite end cut at angle to match subframe.

Passenger side Spohn subframe:
48"of tubing
2 bends to clear floor pan and 1 bend at rear where it meets the plate
1 plate with hole for lca bolt
1 weld around the perimeter of where the tube meets said plate.
1 12" piece of tubing roughly 1" od to finish length of main frame
1 18" brace to join trans mount frame area to subframe
1 weld where said smaller extension of main frame meets main tube
1 notch at end of said brace and angle cut at other end

Now onto the Alston subframes

Passenger side:

44" section of tubing
3 mandrel bends
One "cup" at each end where subframe meets with vehicle
Each "cup" consists of 3 sections of plate cut and welded together to form a U to cup the frame rail, so thats 3 cut pieces of steel, and two welds for each side plate to the center plate, then another weld where the cup meets the actual tube.

Driver side

40" Tubing, one mandrel bend, similar two cups made roughly the same way.

So for a total of $200 you are going to build a product that requires:

20 ft of tubing
8 mandrel bends
14 steel plates cut for various ends.
17 or so welds
2 angles ground
Two tubes notched
and a few holes drilled.

KillerRS

20 feet of tubing $60
Bends are free
3'x12" 1/4 flat stock $15
welds are basicly free 2-3$ tops for wire/gas
grinding basicly free
notching free
drilling free

So even at your "estimates" i could build them for ~80$ I fail to see your point. When you get out from behind your computer and become a fabricator of any kind you let me know, obviously you are the one who lacks experience , or lack of research

laiky

mandrel bender? at least 400 bucks with one die for the cheapest available bender. Quality control wouldn't even exist with this bender. you really need a cnc unit for production.

Mig welder? lets say 1200 bucks for a miller 210

maybe a TIG welder

band saw??

miter saw??

Saleries for your employees? not to mention yourself.

Insurance

rent/mortgage

permits

I think the gist of this is that you can make one set for yourself using your schools equipment and your own time for a few bucks. But to produce the parts for sale your costs will skyrocket. Also remember the investment in quality control you will need to make. You are complaining about the "quality" of the spohn connectors because (only you) need to notch a tube. Well if that were common your reputation as an aftermarket parts manufacturer would be in the trash. I don't think you have a clue what it takes to mass produce a part for retail sale and run the actual business that would be required to do this. Spohn isn't some guy making these on a one off basis for his friends. You can have them at your door next day with with excellent customer service. I don't mean to sound condescending but having worked for small businesses and large and having done research on the subject for myself i have a healthy respect for what it takes.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

IM the one who lacks the research ???

HAHAHAHAHA

Im not the one with a miraculous free mandrel bender, free welder, free labor, free tools etc.

Moron, certified moron you are proving to be

laiky

If i had to guess, i would say young and enthusiastic as well as confident in his abilities to fabricate. A little bit of arrogance goes with this. I used to think the same way when i was younger and more gung ho.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Lets not forget about the also free electricity you apparently have for your manufacturing facility.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

The problem is that I wasnt insulting his supposed abilities to fabricate anything, I just knew he was completely out of his mind when it came to the costs of what it actually takes to "produce" the products, sure if he wanted with school or someone else supplying the tools / equipment im sure he could make a set for himself, and maybe for a few friends for cheap. However it was where he took it upon himself to mouth off about how he could produce an elaborate under car frame setup for dirt cheap that the flag needed to be raised. Whats worse is even after it was all laid out for him, he still is off in his own little world where tools and power for them are free, so are facilities, and supplies get to you free of charge on shipping - yet another thing not listed yet.

KillerRS

you said i couldnt build a set for less than 200$ materials would be ~80$. how is that not less than 200$. I have the tools, and power wount amount to ****. I bet spohn makes his subframes without labor wor less than 50$

KillerRS

once again you sit behind your computer and think you know what you are talking about, while i am out doing it Thats like me reading a book on computers and telling you what to do. So when you become a fabricator you let me know, until then ill just sit back and laugh at all your pointless arguments

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

You said:

You are going to build them AND sell them for $200 a set.

I didnt say you couldnt do it for $80 in materials, now quit being a trigger happy moron when you go to spouting off, I said you couldnt produce and sell them for $200 a set, which you still havent proven you can do, only that you are some kid who thinks that labor, tools, and shipping are free.

You arent out doing crap, you are learning how to bend some tubing, apparently under the guidance of morons since they cant even get spohn's subframes under a car properly.

The best part is the whole cost issue has nothing to do with your wannabe fabricator skills, it comes down to marketing, budgeting, production abilities. You are strictly looking at the minor account of what it takes you to bend a few tubes and zap a few welds, completely oblivious to the cost of all of the tooling, wear and tear on said tools, the actual cost of the wear / tear on the welder you'd need, gas costs, filler, tools to cut the plate stock, fixtures to weld it etc.

When you learn a bit more about manufacturing, come back and talk, till then your just spouting off about what you can do on a very very small scale.

KillerRS

what ever you say, since you are so knowledgeable you should start your own company, hell maby even get your doctorate in mechanical engineering Im done arguing with you. have fun in front of your keyboard, Ill have fun building racecars

Inwo

Right, and how many hundreds of thousands of dollars do you suppose he invested in getting the shop up and running, hm?

laiky

He will learn the hard way when he decides to one day open his own shop.

PS don't for get payroll, health care, and workmans comp. for each employee.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Now now guys, we must sit down and learn, for John Lingenfelter over there is gonna show us how its done.

KillerRS

I dont recall saying anything about opening up a shop, i said i could build and sell a set for $200. Materials= $80 my wage= how ever long it takes, I dont see how you people cannot grasp this.

KillerRS

yeah so when are you going to show us?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

The point that you cannot seem to grasp is that nobody around here cares if you can make A set to sell for $200, you cannot begin actual production of them and expect to clear any sort of reasonable profit @ $200 a set. Whether in your little mind you think it wont be more to go into actual PRODUCTION or not, it will be.

Again- Nobody cares if you can make a set or even a few for your buddys @ $200 / set. This is not the arguement.

You cannot actually PRODUCE them ( meaning enough to support actual retail sales to a large group of people) for $200 a set and actually stay in business.