richcz28

Does anyone know of a pipe that is produced that deletes the stock cat on the early third gens? I have an 84 with the oval flange and pipe. I am looking to replace my exhaust from the Y pipe back. I would like to save my Y pipe because it came with my headers and is in excellent shape.

Thanks, Rich

quickkris2006

iTrader: (2)

if u dont plan on putting a cat backin just cut the flange off and put in pipe

kkingsrulee

Someone might as well tell you.

It's not a good idea to remove your catalytic converter regardless of whether your state mandates emission testing or not. Removing your catalytic converter is a violation of a federal law, which is above any state law.

IROCThe5.7L

Not for a 1984. But this is all I know of.

http://fasttoys.net/shop/product_inf...roducts_id=575

richcz28

quikkris I am not sure you are aware of what an exhaust looks like under a 1984 camaro but it does not have a round pipe it has a specific oval pipe that you cannot just find to weld a flange onto. Both the Y pipe and the Cat are this oval configuration.

Kkingsrulee I am pretty sure the FBI must be on my tail already because I have been running cars without cats for years. They probably have my picture in every inspection station across massachusetts. Too bad the car is an antique and I can do anything I want to it.

IrocThe5.7L Thanks thats exactly what I am looking for, but as you can see it is for 1986 and newer only. Is anyone aware of one for us earlier Thirdgens?

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

Since your getting a new exhaust from the Y back, a piece of pipe will be easiest. Just expand the pipe to slip over your Y, and then do something like i did to mate it to the cat back. i just cut the flange off and had that expanded to 3" id. I got lots of my cut-out/delete pipe running around here.

Oh and BTW, if you like the freedom your relatives fought for, dont move to california. Here in MN, 99% of all trucks 10 years old and older are pretty much running straight pipes, no smog bs to mess with.

86NiteRider

iTrader: (10)

Both of my Camaros run sooooooo much better without it...and they sound better too.

richcz28

Sorry if it wasnt clear. Guys my car has an oval pipe. You cant just slip a pipe over it, its not round.

quickkris2006

iTrader: (2)

[quote=richcz28;4225005]quikkris I am not sure you are aware of what an exhaust looks like under a 1984 camaro but it does not have a round pipe it has a specific oval pipe that you cannot just find to weld a flange onto. Both the Y pipe and the Cat are this oval configuration.

ive had an 84 an 87 and my 91 and my 84 didnt have a oval y pipe or cat flange. and even if it was oval i would have just bent it to make it round or cut out what i had to make it fit.. i had no cat and pretty much 3in straight pipe from the y pipe back to a 40 series flowmaster with dual 3in tips. thats the beauty of metal u can bend it to make what u want

richcz28

yeah sounds like a good plan. high five.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

taking a cat off does not do you any good - unless its the stock one.
you can get high flowing cats that can still do the job of keeping the air a little cleaner.
the best thing you can do is take off the entire exhaust system and put on a set of 2055 headers with a 3 inch system. that will keep things legal and you can still go fast too.
kking has it right - federal law prevents taking the cats off and not replacing them no matter how lazy the smog laws are in your state.
and im glad that rich has not gotten caught but that does not mean he wont. it just means some rookie has not pulled you over, found that you failed the attitude test, and looked real close at your car. there are hundreds of ways to get caught doing something illegal.
dump the stock exhaust, get a new hiperformance one, put on a high performance cat and give your grandkids a little extra good air to breath.
but if you just have to run without one - build a dragster - no smog system there.

good luck.

richcz28

I have brand new headers and a brand new y pipe. I'm not looking for new headers or a new y pipe. I do not want to modify my brand new y pipe. Also, I did not ask about pollution laws (I know for certain it is not illegal for me to remove the cat, the car is considered an antique in my state). I do understand the ethics of polluting the evironment.

I guess nobody knows of any delete pipes for my cat (which was my original question). I will probably make one myself to fit my y pipe. Thank you anyways for attempting to help, but I am all set now. sayonara.

kkingsrulee

The link that IROCthe5.7L posted was the only delete pipe that I've ever known to be manufactured for our cars.

And there's a difference between a car being "considered" an antique in your state and registering it as an antique or historic vehicle, which in turn in most states will greatly diminish the number of miles your vehicle is allowed to travel annually.

And only if your car is registered as an antique can you remove the cat, otherwise if it is merely "considered" an antique then the federal tampering law still applies.

spurgeon76

I got mine from Hawks

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Now, here's the part of the law you don't understand. Federal law does not care if your state thinks your car is registered as an antique or is exempt from testing. Federal law says the car came with a catalytic converter, and if you drive the car on the street, it must still have a catalytic converter. Yes it IS illegal for you to remove the cat. You CANNOT do whatever you want with it. Also, the owners and admins of thirdgen.org could possibly get in trouble with said federal laws if we dont at least mention that what you're doing is breaking the law. That's why it has to be said. What you do with that information is your business. The rest of us who have emissions legal cars that make more power than yours are going to laugh at you for being ignorant. Nothing personal, just business.

6spdSteve

This is a very interesting dilemma and I would like to state my personal and honest opinions on it. I am not trying to start a fight. I am not trying to **** people off. I am only trying to speak intelligently upon the subject.

I think it should be pointed out that there are literally hundreds of thousands of small block Chevys that are out on the road today. A huge portion of these engines just so happen to reside in cars that were made before catalytic converters, AIR pumps, EGR valves and computer controls were installed in cars with small block Chevys. Therefore, they do not have any major pollution controls.

I am going to assume all small block Chevys on the road today have a simple PCV valve system. After all, we are talking about exhaust emissions, not crankcase emissions. I feel this is an entirely different topic.

I think I can make the general assumption that all small block Chevys made up until the release of the LT1 engine basically work the same way. Of course different engines with different compression ratios, different cams and different displacements as well as other properties will produce different amounts of harmful emissions. However, there is no intrinsic property that makes all late model small block Chevys without pollution controls produce more harmful emissions than an early model and vise versa. Any early model Chevy small block can be built to meet the emissions requirements that late model small blocks are evaluated upon and vise versa.

One major difference between earlier Chevy small blocks and later ones is the amount of compression they came with from the factory and their timing. Sometime between 1970 and 1972, pollution laws became more strict and the compression of small block Chevys being built was reduced. Also, the initial ignition timing and overall advance curve of these engines was changed. Even cam timing was changed as well as camshaft profiles. This drastic change can be easily seen by reading any type of repair manual that covers cars made before 1970 and after 1972. By changing these aspects, engines now met the stricter pollution laws.

Now, as time progressed, pollution laws became ever more strict. In order for the Chevy small block to meet these new emission standards, it now needed the aid of a catalytic converter. Never did the pollution laws REQUIRE a catalytic converter, they only required that there was less than a certain maximum amount of pollutants in the exhaust. If some sort of ultra efficient engine had been built that produced less pollutants than the maximum mandated by law, it could have been legally installed in a car without requiring a catalytic converter.

Nowadays, cars made before a certain year are not required to meet ANY pollution standards. They are not even required to meet their original pollution standards. This has nothing to do with antique status. I do not know how things work in California, or any other states, but I do know that in Massachusetts, a car of the 1984 model year will not be tested for emissions. Since the car is not being tested for emissions, the inspection station will not check to make sure there is a catalytic converter or an AIR pump installed. If no pollution standards need to be met, why would pollution systems be inspected? I have discussed this subject with people who work in inspection stations in my area and they all tell me of the same, somewhat bizarre, but none the less true situation.

Now, again, I do not know how things work in other states, but in Massachusetts, cars require an inspection sticker once a year. Police officers in Massachusetts do not know what cars originally came with pollution controls. They do not know how pollution controls work. In fact, they do not even know anything about how engines work at all. They are not required to. They only know this information if they personally find it out for themselves. the only thing police officers are required to know about is the law. The law in Massachusetts states that all registered vehicles must have a valid inspection sticker. It is not the duty of police officers to determine if a car can pass an inspection, this is not their job. It is the job of an inspection station. The job of a police officer, among other things, is to make sure that every car on the road has a valid inspection sticker. As long as Rich has a valid inspection sticker, Tony, he will not get into trouble in any way for not having a catalytic converter, ever.

An extreme example of this occurance is a friend of mine who owns a 1979 Camaro. His entire exhaust system consists of two glasspacks bolted to his two headers. He drives around all the time. He gets pulled over all the time. It sounds something like I imagine a B-17 Bomber taking off would sound. Unbelievably, he has never received a ticket or has had his car towed. This is because his inspection sticker is valid!

Now, I also wonder, what if one were to decide to install a 327 into their late 80's Camaro? This engine was originally built with no major exhaust emission systems. Would this engine now require all the emission equipment that was included with a late 80's Camaro? What difference does it make that the engine is now pulling around a different hunk of metal? How can emissions be based on the year of a car instead of the year of an engine? What if an LS1 engine is installed in a 1970 Camaro? Is there now a requirement that this car meet some type of emission law?

A 327 and a 350 are very similar small block Chevy engines. In fact, they even share the same original bore of 4.001" Why do these old engines that are so very similar to their newer brothers get away with no emissions at all whereas these newer engines are examined so closely?

Kevin, I found it interesting that you stated you make more power legally without creating excess pollution. I assume this means that your car creates no more pollution now then when it did when it left the factory. As I stated before, Engine compression and cam profiles as well as other aspects were changed between 1970 and 1972 in order to meet tighter emission laws. So many years later, the original compression and camshaft profile of your engine still reflect the change made between 1970 and 1972. Many other aspects of these "emission engines" are also based upon emission laws. The initial ignition timing and overall advance curve, fuel mixture, and cam timing of these engines from the factory were all created with emissions in mind. If one were to rebuild an engine which emission laws applied to, it would be violating the emission laws to change the compression of the engine. It would also be violating the emission laws to change the camshaft profile, cam timing, ignition advance curve and fuel mixture. increasing port flow or valve sizing would violate the emission laws, these too were designed with emissions in mind.

Kevin, and Tony, if you have changed any of these aspects of your engine, I believe your cars are now producing more pollution than they produced when they left the factory.

I have to ask yet another question. What if a person owned a 1970 Chevelle Malibu with a 350. Let's say it is the 300hp 350 with 10.25:1 compression and 380 ft lbs of torque. What if the government decided that the emission laws of today also apply to this car? In order to drive this classic beauty, The original small block Chevy would need to have a catalytic converter added. It would also need an AIR pump. It would also need an EGR valve added. The EGR valve and carburetor, as well as the distributor, would need to be computer controlled in order for the engine to run in such a way that the catalytic converter operates at peak efficiency.
A knock sensor and oxygen sensor would need to be added in order for the computer to work correctly.

Even if the thousands of dollars necessary were spent and all this was added and tuned for minimal exhaust emissions, the car would still fail an emissions test due to its high compression and matching camshaft profile. Remember, this was the number one emissions problem that auto makers had to redesign in order to continue making cars after 1972. It just does not make sense to apply emission laws to such a car.

With the technology of today's cars such as hybrid, electric vehicle and CVT tech, I feel the same analogy can be used for Rich's car. I think it no longer makes sense to apply emission laws to these cars.

Kevin, I do not think Rich is being ignorant for giving up a futile effort, there are many more people out there who are also in favor of removing such parts from their cars as well. I think it is ignorant of you, however, to make such a blanket statement that "everyone is laughing" at him. The same may be true of you.

kkingsrulee

You're misinformed. The reason why the "1970 Malibu" will never have to undergo emission testing is because in mid 1970's the federal government MANDATED that all street legal cars have to have catalytic converters. Therefore even if your state has no emission testing, it is still in direct violation of a federal law to remove or tamper with your catalytic converter if it rolled off of the assembly line after the law went into affect, which means that ALL third generation camaros must retain there catalytic converters legally.

You are also misinformed about kevin and tony's car's (respectively) putting out more pollutants than when there cars left the factory. Technology has improved vastly since the 80's. Modern catalytic converters take almost no power from the car but still get the job done, the same goes for other performance parts.

I'm sure kevin can provide you with numbers (lb. per hour/minute) proving that his car does not omit more pollutants than it did when it came from the factory.


And like kevin previously stated, as a moderator on this website, he is obligated to say something about illegal catalytic converter removal.

6spdSteve

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I have no problem with Kevin or yourself making a statement about catalytic converter removal. I think it is always a good idea to make clear that a forum cannot be held responsible for the actions of its posters.

I am not misinformed about Kevin and Tony's cars because in fact I am not informed whatsoever about what they have under the hood at all. I was only pointing out that the catalytic converter is not the only aspect of a car that affects emissions. Even if the catalytic converter is kept but radical changes are made to the rest of an engine, it is very possible to fail emissions. If major changes are made to an engine such as increasing the compression ratio and installing a larger cam, I believe emissions will suffer. However, If Kevin and Tony can provide numbers that prove their cars produce no more emissions now than when they were new, I would not deny their authenticity.

I do not know what catalytic converters are on the market today and how much better they work over the original ones on these cars. I honestly have no interest in researching or spending money on an aftermarket catalytic converter, so therefore, I am indeed ignorant of their abilities. Previouosly my beliefs were that they worked the same way as the original ones and did not do any better of a job. That could easily be wrong.

The statements I have made consist of my own personal opinion that I have gathered from my own experiences and from what I have been told by others. I am confident I will never have a problem with the fact that I have removed the pollution systems from my car. In fact, my car still retains the catalytic converter. However it is completely empty...

FirstLove1991RS

I can Vouch for you. the 1984 has like a 3" or 2.5" oval pipe including y and cat/back

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

I apologize for the length of this post and for breaking it up into sections, but I have to deal with each part individually to make the most sense. I'll put my replies in red to make them easier to see.

Correct. The law has been written so that older vehicles will never be held to a test tougher than what they were subject to when they were new.

I agree with you here.


That's an interesting point, and it makes sense. However, using catalytic converters is what the manufacturers decided to go with back then , so that is what we must use until something better comes along.

Federal law says all emissions parts that came on the when new must remain on the car (or be replaced with 50-state legal parts) for as long as the car remains street-driven. That is the law even if states are not doing emissions testing. For a state to do safety inspections and not check for a catalytic converter too makes no sense, as you said. But that's the way the state's laws are written, even if they conflict with federal law. That's not for me to interpret.

The engine short-blocks are almost the same throughout the family of SBC engines, so its not a problem to install an old SBC from the 60's or 70's into an 80's or 90's vehicle. The problem is you must use the intake system from the newer vehicle, either TPI, TBI, or computer-controlled quadrajet. It would not be emissions legal to use the older carb setup in a newer vehicle. I dont advise it because the roller cam setup in the newer engine blocks almost always makes more power, uses less gasoline, and as a side benefit, less emissions, due to less friction in the drivetrain. I always recommend starting with a late-model roller cam engine block and building from there.
If your 1970 Camaro is subject to emissions inspections, then yes you would have to install all the emissions parts from the newer LS1 engine, as the car would then be recertified as a 1997-2004 vehicle with an LS1 engine. However, most states dont do emissions tests on vehicles older than '75 (at least California doesnt, and the states that do emissions testing usually follow California's lead). So you could install an LS1 engine into a 1970 Camaro at will.

I cant speak for Tony, and I do not know the actually emissions specs from 1991 TPI engines, but my previous engine (Corvette heads and LT4 hot cam) put out emissions numbers less than what the average for all 1991 TPI engines was when it was last tested in 2006, according to the printout I received. My current engine (Trick Flow heads and Lunati cam) put out emissions numbers right around the average for all 1991 TPI engines when it was tested in 2008. I have the specs at home but I think I posted them in the SoCal forum if you care to search. Look for posts by me about passing my test in November 2008. My father's engine actually put out emissions numbers well below the average when his engine was tested in January 2009.

You're right it doesnt make sense. That's why, as I said above, the law was written so that the emissions standards of today would never be applied to older cars.


I've been laughed at before and its not a big deal, because I know I am following the law and am in the right.


My father and I have built our engines with the idea they need to pass CA's emissions. That is why we have taken the best TPI parts we have available to us and matched then with smarter camshafts. Wider LSA's make for a better idle and lower emissions. Mine is 226/232, .580"/.575" lift on 113 LSA, and his is 224/230, .570"/.570" lift, on 114 LSA. I would love to use a Holley Stealth Ram and probably make more power but as it doesnt have an EGR setup its not CA legal.

Yes, you're wrong. Today's aftermarket "high-flow" catalytic converters are made with performance in mind while still being mindful of the need to reduce harmfull tailpipe emissions. Stock cats that come new from the factory are still restrictive, although not as restrictive as the ones from the 70's & 80's. Also, I've seen some studies that show a hollow cat is actually worse for flow than an intact cat. It has to do with the resonance as the hot exhaust enters the chamber, expands, and then has to shrink down again to fit thru the cat's exit hole. I hope you reconsider and get a new aftermarket cat put on your car.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

WELL YOU CAN GO TO A MUFFLER SHOP AND LISTEN TO THEM TELL YOU IT WILL VIOLATE THE FEDERAL LAW FOR THEM TO TAKE OFF THE CAT UNLESS IT IS OFF THE ROAD.

you could also do it yourself. piece of pipe - couple of band clamps from summit and your free to be as illegal as you want. you actually needed someone to tell you to have a piece of pipe cut that length and to buy a couple of band clamps?

as for my car its a little stock tbi 305 for now. still have to put the cam, heads, tpi, and a few other tings in and on. right now the clutter the garage..

but here is my exhaust. 2055 headers - 3 inch. mag cat - 3 inch internal. mid pipe is a 31 inch long - 3 inch internal diameter chamber exhaust. i am using earl gaskets and stage 8 nascar bolts. my son was a nascar official as well as building nascars. he is far brighter than i am at this - im just playing but he was darn serious for a while.

a little loud but i may get used to it - have to decide how to finish the rear off as a fake dual or single pipe with as few bends as possible. im looking for the best performance i can get from these headers and cutting down on the number of bends is one way to do it. just cant figure out how to get it over the hump off to the side without benging it. just dumping under the rear seat will be lound as heck inside the car - and not safe either.

and only california requires 50 state legal - the rest require 49 state legal, but the feds trump state law and if it came with smog stuff it has to stay that way.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

Is there a federal policing agency that chases down people that have tampered with there emissions equipment?

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

And all of us going over the speed limit is illegal too. Theres a list of ILLEGAL mods a person cannot do to his or her car floating around on the exhaust board. It has **** like you can't switch to a air filter thats not stock specs from the factory.

And to all of you that think that people not running cats are polluting the environment and are BAD because we are breaking a FEDERAL law, you must be the same bastards that think farmers should be taxed for their animals giving off methane and causing global warming. GO TO HELL you dumbasses don't know where food comes from.

This god damn smog cats emissions BULLSHIT shouldn't pertain to cars over 20 years old regardless of what engine is in them. can you tell this subject pisses me off. btw, im not singleing any of you guys in this thread, its the other idiots in our MASSIVE government that is WAY too big. Obama doesn't give a **** less about the servicemen we lose in the middle east, hell he had a moment of silence for michael jackson, but nothing for our troops.

The way this world is going, i wouldn't be surprised if we'll have a "agency" that just penalizes car guys for having illegal cars, or even illegal exhausts that don't have a carb number. While the gang bangers and rapists roam the streets free. This is the last post i'm making about emissions ****

6spdSteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickkris2006

ive had an 84 an 87 and my 91 and my 84 didnt have a oval y pipe or cat flange. and even if it was oval i would have just bent it to make it round or cut out what i had to make it fit.. i had no cat and pretty much 3in straight pipe from the y pipe back to a 40 series flowmaster with dual 3in tips. thats the beauty of metal u can bend it to make what u want

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony_cogliandro

WELL YOU CAN GO TO A MUFFLER SHOP AND LISTEN TO THEM TELL YOU IT WILL VIOLATE THE LAW FOR THEM TO TAKE OFF THE CAT UNLESS IT IS OFF THE ROAD.

you could also do it yourself. piece of pipe - couple of band clamps from summit and your free to be as illegal as you want. you actually needed someone to tell you to have a piece of pipe cut that length and to buy a couple of band clamps?

Tony, and Kris, I really think you both need to read more carefully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by richcz28

I have an 84 with the oval flange and pipe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstLove1991RS

I can Vouch for you. the 1984 has like a 3" or 2.5" oval pipe including y and cat/back

The y pipe on Rich's car is an oval piece of pipe that ends in an 90° oval four bolt flange. I have seen this type of setup, which I think Rich is describing, on a 1984 z28 HO. The stock catalytic converter is held to the y pipe with four bolts through this flange. On the back of the catalytic converter is another 90° oval four bolt flange which connects to the rest of the exhaust with another four bolts. Altogether it looks likes this:

-----y pipe-----||-----catalytic converter-----||-----rear exhaust-----

With four, 90° oval four bolt flanges, each represented by this mark: |

There are two gaskets, one between each set of flanges. If you guys were to look at this type of setup, I think you would instantly realize that Rich CANNOT just cut a piece of pipe and replace the catalytic converter with it. ESPECIALLY if Rich does not want to modify the y pipe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by richcz28

I would like to save my Y pipe because it came with my headers and is in excellent shape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by richcz28

I have ... a brand new y pipe. ... I do not want to modify my brand new y pipe.

Since, I assume, Rich does not feel like custom machining two oval four bolt flanges and then welding an oval pipe between them, he is asking if any companies make a catalytic converter delete pipe that would bolt in place of his catalytic converter. Using such a delete pipe would be a much easier way to accomplish his goal. I think it was a reasonable question.



Whether or not it is legal to delete the catalytic converter is a completely different subject. Tony, I do not think that typing in all caps in what seems like a fit of rage is a very useful or constructive way to discuss this topic. Kevin, kkingsrulee, and myself have managed to speak upon the subject without losing our heads. I would love to hear what you have to say on the matter, provided it is written in a similar manner.


-----


Kevin, thank you for your thoughtful reply.


It is very interesting what you had to say about how an empty catalytic converter can actually hurt performance. I am very interested to read in detail about this possible phenomenon. Do you remember where you picked up this information? I bet others would be interested as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin91Z

Yes, and it is difficult to follow laws that do not make sense and contain contradictions.





That is very interesting. If I knew there was a product on the market that would probably make my car more powerful, and it was financially sensible for me to buy it, there would not be much that could stop me from doing so. It is uncommon to meet someone who would not add one thing or another to their car based on whether or not it is legal to do so. For instance, many Holley carburetors warn that they are intended for off highway use only, however I don't know of anyone who owns one who follows this rule.



I am impressed that you took into consideration the emissions of your engine when you chose your cam. Most people seem to stick the biggest cam in there that they can get away with. You must feel very strongly about what comes out of your tailpipes.


If you don't mind, I would like to quote you from another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin91Z

A catalytic converter is a federal emissions device and tampering or removing it on a street vehicle is a federal offense punishable by a fine and/or jail time.

I have to say I find this hard to believe, especially about jail time. Can you provide a source that states this? Seems like the worst thing that would happen is getting a rejection sticker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin91Z

If your remove the AIR tubes you need to worry about the smog police, as its illegal to do so in all 50 states on a street car by federal law.

Could you tell me more of this smog police branch? I have never heard of or seen such a thing.


I think you misunderstood me. Do aftermarket catalytic converters do a better job of cleaning the exhaust that passes through them?

I have a question about aftermarket catalytic converters that I hope you can answer for me. How long/many miles does the catalyst actually last in there before it gets blown out? I ask this because many stock catalytic converters I have seen are completely blown out. My own catalytic converter is completely empty but that is not by my doing, my engine seems to have done it for me. If aftermarket catalytic converters last only as long as the originals, it is very doubtful I will be buying one. I have built my exhaust out of stainless steel because I want it to last a long time without requiring repairs. It is not worth my time and money to change my catalytic converter if a new one is just going to eventually blow out as well.

6spdSteve

Tony, Thank you for posting the information about your engine and exhaust. Your edit came while I was constructing my reply. The added info about your exhaust is very useful.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

take you problem to summit or jeggs - call them ask if they have the flange and buy it from them. i dont see this as a big problem. your locak speed shop may have it. or you can cut if off what ever is connected to your ypipe and use it.

i will check my law library there is something in there about tampering with converters or air pumps that makes it a federal felony to do it and get caught. and you dont need a fed cop to stop you. a chp or any lawenforcement officer can report it and they do. i think the fine is 10k and they can take your ride.
but i will look tomorrow.

kkingsrulee

Tony is correct here, the CHP does most of the policing in this state, they write what are called "referee tickets" that are very expensive and they sometimes impound the car, depending on the severity of the illegal modifications.

In other states they have DOT officials that enforce these laws.

They usually go about pulling you over based on how loud your car is.

1bdbrd

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, but those "DOT officials" don't exist here. The only people that pull you over for having a loud car are the local police department. And they only do so after receiving a call about you being loud.

Anyone who believes that emissions equipment makes the world a magically better place needs to really do their homework. Scientists have shown that the emissions from a controlled vehicle are actually WORSE than from an uncontrolled vehicle.

Its a system largely based off of profit as well. How can a vehicle without emissions equipment, but properly tuned, pass an emissions test but still be illegal? If you can get tested and put down better numbers than is required for your car, shouldn't that be legal? I mean after all, they will tell you the goal is a "cleaner environment" right?

Don't even get me started on global warming though. That fallacy ranks right next to emissions equipment.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

you are obviously forgetting the attitude test. that is when they pull you over and for some reason they dont like you. then they start looking for things. and that cat is a very easy to see item. then they lift the hood and take a good look.
you are basing you conduct on a belief that no one will know. someone always knows.
but hey the issue is yours. as i tell my clients all the time when they ask for advice - put your money away for an emergence - like hiring a good criminal lawyer.
enjoy your car and i hope you are as right as you think you are.

Guest

No, not yet.

Its a violation of federal law to 'tamper' with any originally installed emissions control equipment on a vehicle. Please refer to the EPA regulations to verify. Might want to search for Memorandum 1A. Does not matter if a Chevy truck from 1962 came with a 350 (I know I know) and no catalytic converter if you own a 1989 Iroc. The only thing I am not sure of is where the EPA stands on motor/drivetrain swaps. States vary widely, requiring the emissions devices of the motor regardless of year, requiring the emissions devices of the vehicle being kept in place and hook that up to your new motor (should be a fun task), or like Cali the engine has to be newer and use the devices of that newer engine.

Old quote from me (borrowed from a SEMA article)
Memo 1A.
This refers to a U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) memorandum that says it's illegal to remove, disconnect or disable a required emissions control device on any pollution controlled motor vehicle (PCMV), pretty much any 1968 (1966 in California) or later model year car/light duty vehicle used on public roads. What this means is that even if you don't have a local emissions-testing requirement, technically you can still break federal law by chucking/disabling your vehicle's smog equipment.

1972 Memo 1A document (if the link still works)
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resour...per-memo1a.pdf

Almost all the thirdgens came with decent catalytic converters. I am not positive, but I think some of the very early cars came with the old pellet converters that are heavy and just drain power by the ton. The later ones, not a whole lot to be gained if anything just doing a swap to a "high flow" catalytic converter not to mention... here's the retarded part of dealing with govt agencies... its illegal to replace a functioning cat. UGH. Where is that smilie with its head banging on a wall? Fortunately, federal smog police don't exist so hopefully we don't have to deal with enforcement of retarded laws.

Now, as for the 'oval pipe' thing, chances are your 84 has the cat that bolts up with 4 bolts up front and IIRC 2 in the back. You can either have something fabbed up, or change the way its connected up front. That 4 bolt flange is available to buy, so if you get one of those you can have someone who doesnt care about the non-existant federal smog police to make an "offroad" pipe for you.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

its bad mad max riding to the rescue. yes that link still works - thanks for that.

richcz28

do those v8 interceptors have cats?

kkingsrulee

I'm sure they do. Why wouldn't they? They aren't taking their squad cars to the drag strips or anything.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

in california the administrative code limits their speed to 125, but they do have cats.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

I know about the attitude thing. I never get sh**** with the cops. The cops around here wouldn't know the cat from the backside of a donkey. I have never heard of anybody in Michigan getting messed with for emissions violations. Ever

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

Wouldn't they need to prove that the present owner did the tampering? Maybe a person buys a car that was tampered with by the previous owner. I'd say the majority of the drivers no little or nothing about engines, emissions, and so on.

kkingsrulee

No, it's your responsibility to have the car street legal if your driving it. Regardless of whether you bought the car with all of the EGR, PCV, EVAP canister, cat, etc. removed it's still your responsibility to get the car legal according to either state laws, federal laws, or both.

If you cannot do this then you should not be driving the vehicle in the first place.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

Tell that to my mom

chesterfield

Why is it that when someone wants to delete their cat suddenly TGO gets a conscience about smog laws? There are thousands of post here about putting non cc carbs and ignitions on regulated cars. Posts about replacing efi systems with carbs. Posts about cam swaps, custom headers, chip burning, raising compression ratios, 383 strokers and 400 swaps, etc,etc, and no one seems to care about all this illegal activity. Even some of the moderators have delved into these activities. But if someone wants to delete a cat for some reason they've crossed the line of accepted behavior. Get a clue. TGO is all about circumventing the Clean Air Act. That's what goes on here.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

Probably because it is a simple obvious thing to be "concerned" with.

kkingsrulee

Steveowevol is spot on. Because it's the most obvious emission device to be concerned with, and it is the most effective emission wise. You disagree with me, take your cat off, run a length of hose to the inside of your car, close all the windows, and take deep breaths.

I'm speaking of emissions harmful to humans (the reason catalytic converters were mandated), not to the atmosphere.


And most posts that I see where something is in obvious violation of an emission law or regulation, someone usually says something about it.

But what you have to understand is not that many people on these boards (me included) are very educated on emission control device laws. Yes, I know how all the emission devices function and where they are located, but what most of us don't know are the laws behind them. If I joined these message boards today I would have no idea that it is illegal to replace my stock catalytic converter to a "high flow" model according to california's C.A.R.B regulations. So it's ignorance, not discrimination (of automotive parts), that we don't all start accusing and arguing when someone wants to swap there EFI system for a carb.


But at the end of the day, all we can do is warn and give our suggestions and opinions, we can't make anyone do anything. However it's another story if you argue and try to reason that "removing your catalytic converter" is not unlawful, and that it's in fact "better for the environment" than a catalytic converter.

What's next? 9/11 was a government conspiracy?

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

Ya know, I get tail gated constantly by people on cell phones, text messaging, not concerned that they are driving 2 tons of steel down the road, and this seems to be ok, but lord have mercy don't gut your cat, or your a menace to society.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

can we get back to the topic - and yes i got off of it too.
cut the end off you cat with your precious end piece and bolt or weld it to the new cat or the new pipe.

richcz28

dude i was talking about the mad max movie patrol cars

IROCThe5.7L

I can understand letting the poster know about the law. But too much guys. Stay on topic next time please.