fulo

I know most will disagree with me, but I am truly tired of the compromises one has to make for having headers... The heat, the leask, changing plugs, warm starter (I have it themal Tek wrap), and noise truly have gotten to me (BEAR IN MIND I LIVE ON A RELLY HOT & HUMID PLACE< WITH LOTS OF TRAFFIC).

I have a set of Edelbrock TES Jet Hot Coated Headers. After driving the car for on hour, the heat is just unberable. The passenge side floor get really hot! I have done my very best to elimitate those stubborn leaks, but still they leak. (and I Have studs).

If I have to sacrifice 10-15 ponies for comfort, then so be it...

With this in mind, I have always wonder why there is something like cast iron headers, or super flow cast iron Exahust Manifold...something like a mid point between headers and stock exhaust manifolds.

On my pursuit for this, I noted the Corvetter RAM exhaust Manifold... i did a search to see if anybody has put it on a ThirGen, but nothing... I guess it has tobe wtih space restriction.

So in all, I am looking around for alternative to headers...and here goes my questions:

Can I use the Corvetter ram exhaust Manifold on a ThirdGen?,

Besides the kit from GM to install a 350 HO. engine in an 82 to 92 camaro (LH Manifold 14094063 & RH Manifold 1409406), Are there any other Cast Iron Exhaust Manifold we can use?

Thanks!

Freakazooid52

iTrader: (1)

The ram horn style stock manifolds, you can work a lil magic with them on a diegrinder they flow okay for low/mid range power. no where near a header though

but thats the only stock manifold I have ever heard of being used when headers arent.

No idea if they fit a third gen, just thats the style of stock manifold that is decent.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

I can't see why you're getting more heat than with the old exhaust manifolds unless you're running lean or something. Is your cat clogged up? Maybe this is the reason you keep getting leaks and building alot of heat. With the TES coated headers you should actually see a reduction in underhood heat. I really don't see you being happy going back to iron manifolds, I think you'll be fixing an "issue" that's not the one to blame for your problems.

fulo

Thanks for the reply... In my reseach, cast iron retain heat better thant turbular header (thin walls), in addtion the more surface area of headers allot great heat transmission.

Where I live,there are no emissions, so the car is hollow out. AS for running lean, I dont think I am, because. Last time I check, the spark appeared to be almost on the rich side. My emission oudors are strong. The leaks are there, No matter how I try to fix then, they are just there.

Onthe heat side, I coud be fresh ouside, nut inside is an oven. The firewall is trully hot. If you were to touch the accumulator (A/C), you will get burn, it gets truly hot.

In all, I am just tired of this and with the "casties" is less than a hazzle...

But I will follow you advice... I will check on the plugs again and play with the mixture and keep you posted.

THanks!

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

doubt it's from your headers, they should reduce underhood temps. Sounds to me like you need better gaskets if things are leaking. Also they make heat barrier sheeting for you to put under your floorpan as a quick fix for heat transfer issues. I get hot floorpans in my car as well, but most of the heat I was feeling while street driving my car came from the rubber donut around the shifter cable being missing and a few holes in the firewall for various items I've removed. After resealing these holes shut I have no issues driving my car around.

fulo

I haave though about the heat barrier sheeting for the fire wall , the floor, and the like... But have not pursuit is because i want to takle the problem itself. Is if not the headers, then it could be the mixture... I will play with it this weekend. Will take some pic of the plugs... but if the timing and mixture are right, then it has to be the headers... what else could it be?

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Heater control valve stuck open? A friend of mine had a 1994 Z28 with long tube headers and that thing would get so hot it was cooking the heater box on the side. He got it dyno tuned got the leaks out of his headers finally and EVERYTHING got better. What you really should do is after you get the mixture set take those guys out and put in some new gaskets, while you're at it get some BBQ grill paint, clean up your Y pipe and mid pipe and shoot those guys inside and out with it. Also keep in mind that to rich can cause your exhaust to get cooking hot just the same as to lean can; if you're burning off raw fuel in the exhaust it's going to get pretty hot. Finally you should absolutly consider throwing down some heat shield insulation. It will make the ride 1000 times more pleasureable because it will not only reduce the temps in the cabin, but it'll cut down on some of the engine/road noise.

Phatfiddler

iTrader: (8)

Tuning may have an effect on how the car reacts as wlel. Did you re-tune your car after the header installaton? Also, you said you have leaks in the exhaust. If air is getting into the exhaust system before the O2 sensor, it could cause false readings and cause for a rich mixture. Just food for thought...

spanners

and if the timings too far retarded makes the old pipes red hot if its way out

fulo

Thanks. I am definetely sure is not the heater valve, since I have by pass it. WHere I am, there is not COLD WEATHER . AS for paieint the header, Mine are Jet Hot Coated, wich did help a little. On the gasket, I have check then several times, and even put a little of extreme temp silone to seal.

Ont hign I will do, regardless if I try the "casties" will be the insolution. Thanks for your comments!

fulo

Hi, thanks for your comments. I did tune the car after the header installation. On the Leaks, I begining to belive that the header plate might be warp. One thing I must say is that is a B%^th to tighen those headers. I have stubs on then and there isn much space to tighthen. (However, I have done it).

On the O2 Sensor, Well, I have byPassed the ECM of the car, put a mecanical q-jet, and a independent Ignition. That is one thing I do not regret... So much simpler!

I will check the plug again, play a little with the mixture, and relay back the results.

Thanks!
----------
HAS ANY BODY PUT THE CORVETTE RAM EXHAUST MANIFOLD ON A THIRD GEN?

tom3

Surface area is a factor here. Consider the log manifold compared to the individual pipes with the headers, much more area to radiate heat. However with my coated TES I really didn't notice any more heat under the hood than before. I did put a shield on the starter and next to the brake lines under the master cylinder to be safe. Do you have the heat shield on the underneath of the floor pan on the passenger side?

fulo

Right, more surface area to disipate heat, plus headers, as oppose to Cast Irion Manifols, transmit less to the exhaust. Cast Iron here have a clear "thermal" advantage. The primate reasont I coated my TES was due to the rust.. they were rusting fast... know, after about 6 years, I do have toms rust on the headers, but they were coated after being used, and even though they tried to remove all the rust, some was boung to remain.

I do have a thermal wrapt shield on the starter. and the original factoru undermath carpet is there.

My plans are as follow:
Re check the mixture via sparkplud reading.
Get some thermal insulating materail for the firewall, transmission housing, and floor of the car.
check the headers gaskets and is needed, get some.
if nothing else work, I will possible wrap the headers shorties.

But when I consider all this, the 10-15 HP I with loose with the casties does seem alot with all the comfort I will gain.

Thanks for your comments!
----------
Right, more surface area to disipate heat, plus headers, as oppose to Cast Irion Manifols, transmit less to the exhaust. Cast Iron here have a clear "thermal" advantage. The primate reasont I coated my TES was due to the rust... they were rusting fast... now, after about 6 years, I do have some rust on the headers, but they were coated after being used, and even though they tried to remove all the rust, some was bound to remain.

I do have a thermal wrapt shield on the starter. and the original factory undermath carpet is there.

My plans are as follow:
Re check the mixture via sparkplud reading.
Get some thermal insulating materail for the firewall, transmission housing, and floor of the car.
check the headers gaskets and is needed, get some.
if nothing else work, I will possible wrap the headers shorties.

But when I consider all this, the 10-15 HP I with loose with the casties does seem alot with all the comfort I will gain.

Thanks for your comments!

fulo

I have contacted Brzezinski to inquiry about the Corvette mini Ram Exhaust Manifolds and they said it wont fit on a third gen...
I was truly disapointed. I cannot believe there is not in between option.

THe thing with cast Iron it the interesting thermal properties i has. Is any of you have cooking experience with cast iron, you will know what I am talking about. Cast Iron retain more heat (i.e. radiate less), that thin tube headers. THink of it at retaining more heat in the exhaust gasses.

Any way, I wonder is there is anyboud here that have a moderatley modified engine that had headers, and place back the cast iron exhaust manifold. How much HP did you loose, want was it felt?

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Man I'm not trying to be rude here but you're still chasing ghosts worrying about this. Many members here have un coated headers and have absolutly 0 issues with the heat like you're having. Even in these Indiana summers when it gets to 105 degrees in the shade my Camaro has never had these issues with the un coated hedman long tubes, neither have the other 2 friends of mine who run the same ones. Something needs changed but it isn't those headers.

neagan

iTrader: (7)

I also did some major searching last year to find a different route to take other than standard headers. When I found out about the Ram's Horn design I was sure I had found the solution.
As you have now finally discovered, the Horn's apparently try to take up space the frame resides in. If I understood it better, I'd check to see it the frame could be modified for clearance.

There's a guy on this board by the name of Dyno Don. Apparently he started making a much better header to work with our 3rd Gen's and has a couple available I have not been able to take the time to speak to him directly, but a couple members were swearing on their mom's & Bibles that his design is FAR SUPERIOR to everything else. Just a thought.

Now, If you find out anything good- PLEASE take the time to let me/us know. My new engine will be done this year and I still havn't latched onto a an exhaust solution. Best of Luck, Nitro

online170

OK, first off, if you look at how close the exhaust is to the firewall and the floor, you will understand why it gets hot. If you dont run insulation, it will happen with ANY V8. Its not just the headers. Cast iron will take longer to reach equilibrium with the exhaust temps, but headers and exhaust manifolds will get the same amount of "hot".

I have 2 very simple solutions for you.

1) Get a power bulge (cowl) hood from a factory firebird, (maybe $50 or less used), or an aftermarket hood.
2) Use insulation on your floor, and firewall if you want.

The cowl will allow FLOW under the hood. WHen your fan is working, it will actually PUSH the cold air in the car, and the hot air OUT of the cowl. THis will give you a much cooler underhood, and lower temps.

The padding will just keep the heat OUTSIDe where it belongs. These engines give off an immense amount of heat, you arent producing any more, you just arent managing it well.

Hope that helps.

spanners

my headers in my holden commodore are close too a lot of important stuff even rubber boots and heat is not an issue look how they bend around the stearing rack to fit the longtubes in there havent melted that boot yet they are ceramic coated

neagan

iTrader: (7)

Moving the air around IS important. I used to drive Toyota Supra's. Those engine compartments held in a tremendous amount of heat and would cause all kinds of issues. The basic agreed solution was to remove the weatherstripping from between the hood and the windshield so hot air could flow out. Some also made little spacers to fit on the hood hinges to raise up that back windshield area up from 1/2 to a full inch.

For the heat transfer, you can go to your local auto body repair supply store and get stick-on heat/insulation roll or even a liquid based agent to paint on the firewall and floor inner surfaces. You'll find that many of the serious camaro/firebird guys who like to modify the entire car for performance will usually lay Dynomat material on the floors and the roof as a minimum. For those with heavy exhaust output it's almost a must to put noise/heat barrier material EVERYWHERE! The 3rd Gen body design closely resembles an amplifier box and noises resonate much more than the standard closed trunk body.

If you have a pick & pull type of wrecking yard near you, grab an old tarp and crawl under a few Toyota or Honda's to find small but well made durable heat sheilds that you can transfer over to your hot-rod undercarriage.

Best Of Luck Trying Out Some Solutions! Nitro

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Check here and follow the link;
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/sout...-pipes-my.html

OR here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/exha...-4-header.html

fulo

Thanks for your Comments, You are not being rude, rather pragmatic! Wish is the way I deal with things. If you say is not the headers, then it must be either the ignition timing or the mixture.

I will check on the plugs this weekend, and take somepictures aswell. I will specify as mush as I can.

Thanks!
----------
Thanks. The power bulge (cowl) is not an option, to expensive to ship. The insulation I will most definetely try after I tweak a bit with timmig and mixture. May be I will wrap the headers aswell.

fulo

Thanks Bro. I will keep you posted on waht I find! I will most definetely try the Insuation on the fireall, transmission housing and floor! May wrap the hearders aswell!

fulo

O.K. With the set up I have (see siganture) this is waht I have so far:

set the base timing at 15 advance. Took all the spark plugs to check their condition (CHECK THE PICTURES).


http://i81.imagethrust.com/images/3I...p-1010005.html

http://i81.imagethrust.com/images/3I...p-1010006.html

http://i82.imagethrust.com/images/3I...p-1010007.html

From what I see, I may be running a bit lean. There is absence of deposits, and the insulator does have a bit tiny (minute) sign of blistering.

Another thing to keep in mind is the operation temperature of the car. (COMPRESION ABOUT ~10:1, Aluminum Heads and intake) The operation temperature of my car is about 195-200. On highway ir drops to about 180. I dont have a thermostat for the cooling system.


THis would make sense since I had a problem on the past with strong emission oudor, and did all I could to resolve this (leaning the car to the max).

I was going to play with the mixture, then then I realize I had a flat tire (with no spare), and ran to resolve this (tomorrow work).

From the pictures and date, any comments?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Of the problems you mentioned I have only one of those. The number 6 and 8 plugs are hard to change.

With my ceramic coated Dyno Don 1 3/4" headers I'm suprised how cool my engine compartment is.

With my Earls header gasket and Breslin locking header bolts leaking is not an issue.

No warm starter issues. Plenty of clearance on my installation.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Wow, i never had those problems and i live in Texas, so i know about the heat, sounds like your headers are BS. My headman shorty were fine, my Blowtechs were good till i bottomed them out and beant the flange...nothing adding 2 more header gaskets couldnt fix.

rocluvr0013

Now im not going to say that this is THE problem, but it should be addressed. You do need to run a thermostat. Run a low temp one if youd like, but you should run one nonetheless.

This will keep coolant in the passages in the block longer and allow the coolant to extract more heat from said block.

I live in california and it gets very hot here inland. 115 degree days in the summer, and i ran TES headers uncoated and the only problem i ever had was burnt starters til i got a heatwrap and shield for the starter.

fulo

Thankss for allthe replues...I am begining to believe that may be there is something wrong with my set up. It seems that very few have this problems.

Did any body saw the plugs pictures? I know the seem lea, but would like a second opinion. What abou the temperature of the engine (195-210)? Any comments?

as for Headers Gakets,any word ont he best header gasket?

This upcoming weekend I will play with the mixture, Will post results.

Thanks!

online170

1) The plugs look fine to me. They should be "tan" coloured to indicate normal operation. It seems you do alot of city driving and usually probably stay under 3000 rpms, so its not a big deal if they are not exactly tan. The condition for "lean" is a sparkplug with "glazing", like its shiny.

2) Your operation temperature of 195-210 is not a big deal either. Some of you may crap on me for saying that, but its just cuz you love your engine to much. It should run a minimum of 180*, i run mine between 190* and 195*. Remember it has to get hot enough to burn off the water.
The factory temp light, in most cars did not come on until 256*, and i think you might blow a head gasket past 260-270*. Before that its all good.

You may want to invest in a mechanical clutch fan. My bros has one, and it stays below 190 all day long. He has hooker headers (bare), and a 355 with mild cam. This is rush hour traffic included.

3) For header gaskets, im pretty happy with fel-pro. You may want to invest in a better brand, but my felpros are amazing. I got them installed in a shop that offers a guarentee against leaks for like 6 months or something, i got it installed there.

Alot of guys have trouble with this because its not just the gasket that counts, it has to be installed properly. Follow these steps and you will have very good results.

- Sand down, or if you can afford, machine the mating surfaces. Headers may warp over time, so if urs are used, just sand them, and same with the heads, because it would involve removing the head to machine it true. Make sure all the old gasket is removed, and surface is smooth and grease free.

- Next, take a tap, put a little bit of lube on it, (old oil is fine), and tap out each header bolt hole. This will get any old crap that was in there before out. And alot of crap builds up, which gives you skewed torque readings.

- Next, buy new header bolts. Most of these bolts are one time use. They are made to "stretch" as they are torqued, and often loose their integrity from all the hot cool cycles. Just buy new ones, they are $10.

- When installing, use antisieze on all the bolts. Saves your heads if u ever decide to pull off a header for whatever reason.

- Finally install the headers, and make sure they are retorqued after the car runs, and cools down, a few times. Some people have different opinions on how many times, i did mine for about a week after daily driving. I also make sure the torque is holding each month. Have had headers for 3 months now, so far so good. I dont think they will leak any time soon.

Freakazooid52

iTrader: (1)

You can also use 2 header gaskets per side. Ive done this, buy a tube of high temp copper RTV. GLob a lot of that on each side of the gasket and tighten the bolts down evenly and check them every week or so for loose ones.

I went a whole year without a leak on my headers and the engine they were on was a lot more radical then yours and was a DD.

they even lasted through most of a michigan winter

also if you dont want to use 2 gaskets these SCE gaskets are the BEST header gasket availble.

Jegs # 829-5011

fulo

I do have a b#$th of a time tightening the nuts (stud system)... There is not much clearance

fulo

Considering my set up I have the timing at 15 advance. I do know I have the carb lean out to the max since I had some issue on the past with strong emission smell.. I try very hard to reduce thie emissions by playing the the neddle and the jets.

online170

I will take some pix of my brother's 1983 Z and maybe post the mechanical clutch fan setup for you. The earlier model camaros and birds came with this, and they had a shroud designed for it. Dont need to worry about the centered thing, it still does its job. Just make sure its a clutch fan so you dont strain your water pump. A junk yard is probably the best place to find this.

The funny thing is, no matter how fast or slow my brother drives his car, the temp will always hover around 180* with the mech. fan. The ONLY time it goes higher (190-210), is when the engine revs above 3000rpms, and sustains that rpm for a few minutes. So i really like it.

On my firebird, i have an electric fan, that comes on with a manual operated switch, i almost never use it, only when im in stop and go traffic on the way home from work. I also have an air damn, i dont think you can do this if you have GFX on your camaro, but im sure someone has found a way to make it happen. Point being, the air dam on my firebird is what does the cooling. Its phenomenal, very good design, just forces air to circulate under the hood.

As for tightening, the installer must have tightened them somehow. Can you squeeze a small wrench in there maybe? When i say make sure they are torqued, you should have a rough idea of how much 25 lbs/ft torque is, and just tighten it by hand once in a while.

I have never used studs, but id imagine the nuts would get loose after a while.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Once I had heat cycled my header bolts a few times I pulled them one by one and plut red loc tite on them. I've not had to touch them again since this. I also bought a can of the spray on copper silicon gasket stuff they use on head gaskets in turbo cars and such and put that on the basic 10 dollar Auto Zone gaskets. Before this I would get leaks that would kill the paper gaskets about every 1000 or so miles, since then I've put tons of heat cycles through them with no issues at all.

fulo

Thanks, Iwill try to find the cooper spray here. I have used Silcone on the gaskets. I belive it helped allot, since the condtion was way worth. I though about loc tite, but i shy away due to the heat... though it will just evaporate. I will give those two a try.

Thank!

fulo

Plan to use loc tite

fulo

what about Wrapping the headers? Any one for that. the headers on the passenger side are dangerous close to the fuel lines...

I have spae Q-jet that have cahnge the needle and the jet (edelbrock kit). I will put it next week and also intall the A/F gauge. That should be enought to find out if I am running to lean.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Never wrap headers...the heat will destroy them.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

agreed, the wrapping makes them rust out so freaking fast, you'll cut the life of those headers more than in half if you do that to them. I have another example for you on why these headers shoudln't be your problem. A kid in town has a 1985 Iroc Z, after pulling the heater and AC box I gave him sheet metal to cover the holes in the firewall, I was in that car twice and it didn't get balzing hot inside sitting or cruising. You would feel some warm air run across your legs at around 20mph but after that it got better. BTW dont ever try this because the ammount of carbon monoxide we breathed in was probably tremendous '

fulo

Thanks for the advice on wrapping... I will not go that route. I will have to twinkle with my q-jet... thank God I have a calibration kit from edelbrock.

I am also invest on some firewal, tranny housing, and floor insulation.

Next weekend I will play with the carburator and post results...

fulo

FInally I gotten to change the needle and jet on the carburator. As per edelbrock tunning kit, on the manual, the needle and jet chart, my calibration set up was VERY LEAN. According to that graph, I have calibrated it to base point. THIS WEEK IS THE TEST AND TRAIL. LEts see how hot the headers get. Will post results!

Thanks

fulo

I have to say that recalibrating the mixture on the Mechanical Q-jet made a difference. The engine takes a bit longer to get hot, and it seems to run cooler. Before It will get really hot really fast.

I also have to say that my starter problem have been almost eliminated. Bear in mind that I always had the started Thermo Tec Blanket.

I have also notice how hot the firewall and transmission housing get...To put in on perspective... After driving the car for about one hour, if you were to touch the transmission housing fron inside the car (I have no Sound system at the moment) you will get burn in about 5 seconds... it gets hot!

I will purchase some thermo blanket for the firewall transmission housing, and the underbelly passenger side of the car.

In the future, I will also replace my edelbrock headers with some hookers!

THanks for all the comments!

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

glad to help.

fulo

Just an update, it trully has helped to adjust the mixture on the carburator! I have ordered some thermal blankets from Thermotec. I plan to cover the fire wall, the trans housing, the passenger floor, the ac system (blower box, accumulator), and any other area where heat might be transmisted.

I also plan to retrofit my car with conventional fan clutch system for the radiator. I like old tech!

I am believing on headers again!

brodyscamaro

Why don't you want e-fans?

fulo

I lived on a Very HOT and HUMID Place with losts of bumper to bumper traffic. Car get hot, and I need something that pulls allot of air. Ihave notices that all big cars have fan clutch set up,and Also fan mechanical fan move more air. I ams stillc onsidering the idea. I have a tread on the Cooling Section about this. But to be Honest with you, I favour old tech... simple and reliable! With today car, with all the electronics, the margin for failure has widen allot. My opinion,