Da Grim Reaper

if you wanna come to albany GA call sowega tires they will do it. this man want play, you want it done you wanna call him. the welds are the best ive ever seen. he will only accept cash for these type request ? I have a 77 model 350 motor with dual pipes with the x pipe setup and it angles out before the back tires. awesome look my opinion.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

It is IMPOSSIBLE to tell that a Cat is gutted if runs past the sniffer and it checks it good. So that is BS.

I fought with the guys here in Texas at a couple of various muffler shops with my 1983 G20. It came from GM Canada without cats and had the factory RPO N10 factory Duals. The factory underhood emissions label that would usually note CATALYST, was without the word CATALYST. The muffler shops refused to touch it and wanted to charge me over $500.00 to install cats. I finally found someone that had a stock 1985 Suburban with the same engine and the same exhaust system that owned a muffler shop. Knowing that it was a factory system, I finally got my duals put on.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Your missing the point...DPS INSPECTION STATION INSPECTORS WOULD PURPOSELY MODIFY THE EMISSIONS SYSTEM, THEN TAKE A CAR TO GET INSPECTED. IF IT PASSED, THE STATION GOT FINED. A simple rap on the converter, will tell someone if it is gutted or not, or at least raise suspicion. Pass or not, it's still illegal to do. Whether it be gutted cats, smog pump removal, WHATEVER...They routinely set up "stings" on stations, that are reported to doing such things. They did not just go after random stations, only suspected stations.

As for coming from Canada without cats...that's fine, for Canada. Once it gets imported to the U.S.A., it still has to meet our emissions standards. So, the shop that did your dual system, was still breaking a federal law. sO, YOUR TRUCK IS STILL ILLEGAL. PERIOD. END OF STORY. Whether or not it was built in another country without cats.

Like VW Beetles. I know it the 90s, the same old original air cooled Beetle was still being built, in Mexico. But they couldn't be certified in the US. Not only because of emissions, but because of safety standards.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

It was SOLD in TEXAS and MEETS ALL EMISSIONS standards (1983 FEDERAL STANDARDS for MEDIUM DUTY TRUCKS, GVW>6,000 lbs) in effect then. It still PASSES emissions with flying colors.

My point is, that I had trouble just trying to recreate the LEGAL, FACTORY exhaust system, that is all.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

They don't care if it passes without a cat period. No smog pump. No AIR tubes.

If it was originally sold With that stuff, it has to STAY with that stuff.

My smog pump is still there, but has no pulley. So it isn't obvious a belt is missing, or there is an empty bracket. My cat doesn't have a AIR tube hook up, nor are the tubes still hanging there, disconnected. So, it Looks stock, but isn't. And my #s are almost zero (literally!). I should fail visually, despite how goo my #s are.

3 more years, and no more emissions testing! Even then, I should fail visually. Which is my biggest problem with their standards...Do the sniffer...Fine...Pass or Fail...

Who cares HOW I did it....Who cares WHAT I removed, as long as my #s are low. Isn't that what's they're shooting for? Low #s?

TA

iTrader: (1)

If they were concerned only with clean air, they would go strictly by the numbers, but that doesn't happen, does it?

It is a common fallacy when writing laws regarding automobiles that the OEM engineers are perfect and the rest of us are idiots. This notion keeps us buying poorly engineered parts and outdated and obsolete smog equipment specifically to pass smog visual inspections, while cars without a lot of this crap pass with better numbers than ours do.

I guarantee you, someone is getting rich off of this, and it's NOT joe consumer.

I had an '84 F250 that came from Kansas, 460 V8, no cats. Every muffler shop I took it to told me I had to put cats on it, yet it passed visual and tailpipe every time when I explained it was originally an out of state 3/4 ton truck. I would up having to buy piping and weld my own exhaust up when it rotted out.

So much for "the spirit of the law"...

TA

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I AGREE completely and know exactly what you are talking about. Not to mention that most of the emissions parts for various cars are no longer being produced or available. You have a 3/4 ton truck of the same vintage that I am talking about. My van is a G20, 3/4 ton, WITHOUT cats, yet they were still pressuring me to put them on. That is total BS, IMHO. I did just as you and at the time, bought the original factory replacement parts from the Walker exhaust catalog. The Walker catalog even had my factory system shown in detail. Gotta love working with idiots.

Cflick

One would think, but there you go thinking........

Fortunately, the bozo's here in Ohio have no clue what they are looking at.
It looks like it has cats. ( it does )
Opening the hood, the motor doesn't look "familiar" so they have no clue.
Does it belong in there ? Looks fairly "stock" looking, kinda sorta.
Rusty where it should be. Black and oily. No chrome. Kinda "beat" for it's "age." Must be stock, I guess.....
Gas cap holds pressure, and passes a sniffer, so it MUST be stock. Right ?

Da Grim Reaper

what does it matter about your exhaust cat or no cat, smog or no smog. just hook the stuff up and shut up. if you wanna suprise someone do it your self. leave everything on and do it. if you removed the pully just remove everything. my god your numbers are low!, but they could be better. yeah really. if you want cats have them if not then dont. bake you some cookies and take a nap or something.

jimmy92rs

iTrader: (3)

if im not mistaken, im pretty sure that air pump is there to pump air to the cat. it also prolongs the life of the cat

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

When you're willing to put your car through the entire certification process, then you can say you "did it your way". The process costs several hundred thousand dollars, and puts about 50k miles on the car.

The testing you are going through is only valid if all of the equipment certified for the car is present and operating.

TA

iTrader: (1)

You're absolutely right each "combination (car, engine & emissions equipment) is certified as a package, and the certification process is much more complicated and stringent than the emissions tailpipe test you have to pass to register your car. If there is any non-CARB approved deviation from this certified package, you will get sent to a referee, and that spells trouble.

But what happened to just making sure the cars don't pollute? Why is it necessary to be so heavy handed regarding cars that would pass out the tailpipe even without cats? Because it has become a VERY LUCRATIVE government and private industry revenue stream. Just like parking and traffic tickets, they are not enforced for the greater good, they are enforced because it makes the government MONEY, and lots of it.

I'm not saying I don't want this stuff enforced, but they are draconian here in California, and go overboard when it comes to fines, then they allow diesels to spew crap and send out false information on why it's "not as harmful" as gas emissions. It's not as harmful because of the incredibly politically powerful Teamsters union, as well as government buses, also a revenue stream. Anyone who tells you that Diesel emissions are "not as harmful" as gasoline emissions has some kind of financial stake in that perception, yet leaf blowers are now being smog regulated, I guess because they put out more harmful emissions than all the Diesel trucks, buses, diesel locomotives, generating plants, and even pickup trucks? Yea, I believe that...NOT

It's not about clean air, it's about MONEY.

TA

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

I knew a guy who put dual cats on his car, his #s were CLEAN, but didn't pass, because"his car wasn't OEM with the dual cat option". He put on a single cat, #s went up, but still under the legal limit, and he was passed. With HIGHER #s, he passed....

That just PROVES it's NOT about emissions, but $$$. Otherwise, the modification rules wouldn't even exist.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

No, it's about sticking to what can be proven.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

It just proves that the TRUE goal is not reduced emissions, but $ in somebodies pocket.

PneumaticTire

I am an assistant manager at a Midas in Dayton Ohio, I too would unfortunately turn you away. It is a FEDERAL LAW that any vehicle equipped from the factory with a catalytic converter MUST have the converter on it no matter what. Any shop that is reputable will do things the right way. 500 bucks to put duals on a customers car while deleting the cat isn't worth the 150k or whatever it is now fine, and my job. I know my shop doesn't need the business that bad.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It would appear someone has a chip on someone's shoulder.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Not at all....It's just that, if the TRUE GOAL was reduced emissions, they would care less HOW you got your car cleaner, and focus on IF your car was clean or not.

No chip. I've NEVER failed, so I have no personal reason to hold a grudge. Not to mention, my wife was, basically, the person EVERYONE hated...Her department at DPS Headquarters, was the one the controlled all the inspection stations, icluding emissions.

el_muerte

If the numbers are low, doesn't that prove the system works?

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

See? el muerte gets my point. Like I said above....

"I knew a guy who put dual cats on his car, his #s were CLEAN, but didn't pass, because"his car wasn't OEM with the dual cat option". He put on a single cat, #s went up, but still under the legal limit, and he was passed. With HIGHER #s, he passed...."

That's why I say it's NOT about emissions, but somebody's wallet!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

No. It only proves that the numbers are low right then.

TA

iTrader: (1)

Five7Kids' point is that you can do something TEMPORARY to make it pass, but if the vehicle follows the "approved combination" of engine/chassis/emissions stuff, then they're pretty sure you haven't changed something to make the car work better. They auto manufacturers lobby that is very deeply involved in these laws would much prefer you buy a new car than update the old one.

My problem is that in many cases, updates or changes can make permanent and significant improvements in both emissions and efficiency, giving better mileage, performance and emissions, but it's Illegal because they assume anything that someone can do in their garage would be WORSE than what the factory has provided, and that is WRONG. This attitude also kills anyone doing innovative or untried technology to improve efficiency. They assume we are all evil cheap and clueless, why don't they assume we are all brilliant engineers instead? Because most of us aren't, and because the ones making the laws are being lobbied by groups that stand to make money on making older cars obsolete.

TA

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

The above is true. Another example. If the 1988 cars had single exhaust (which they did of course) but the factory offered true dual exhaust in 1989, I could change my car from single to dual. The emissions would go down due to less restriction. Yet it's illegal for me to do that. Even though the pollution would be lower. GM could have done it for the '89 year and there would have been no problems.

Adjustable fuel pressure regulators are "for off road use only." Changing the pressure technically is against the rules. Nevermind that GM slowly ramped up the stock fuel pressure almost every year during the mid-late 1980's.

One of my friends passed a TX emissions test with no cat in his LS1. Granted, this was a few years ago when it was brand new and the tests weren't as strict. This wasn't a $$$ in the back pocket thing. He actually hooked it up to the emissions machine and it passed (barely).

Part of me thinks you should be able to offset newer car's emissions with older cars. Say you own a 69 Camaro and an 89 Camaro. If you put a cat on the carburetor 13 mpg '69 Camaro and took the cat off your clean tall geared, overdrive TPI '89, the total pollution should go down.

The dumbest emissions rule of all time has to be California's rule that you CAN'T put a catalytic converter on a car that didn't originally have one.

jay_d

This thread needs to DIE!!!!!

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

I can understand both points when it comes to the catalytic converter cost. For somebody scraping by who drives their car 20 miles a month, a cat is expensive. For somebody who is doing a complete exhaust changeover, the cat isn't as expensive.

I wound up paying $175 for my Catco 9118. Sure it's only $139 or whatever in Summit's catalog. But after I factored in shipping and sales taxes, it wound up being $175.

I have probably the most expensive, non header, single exhaust system of any 3rd gen. (all prices below in Cdn currency)

Catback $894 (group purchase to boot)
Cat $175
Sales taxes $138
Shipping $62
Hangers $80
Install charge $125
___________
$1,474. Throw in a half a tank of gas to the airport and back (to get the catback and cat) and it's an even $1500.

Considering that to ship my catback to my house instead of me picking it up at the airport, it would have cost another $260 in shipping, in a way I got a deal.

Americans get free shipping and no sales taxes. It's a lot cheaper for you guys.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

I agree all the way. Just like it's illegal to run propane for air conditioning. You can have a propane powered car, but you can't run propane as your A/C. You need less of it since it's so efficient, and there are no CFC/ozone worries with it. There was 2.25 lbs of R12 in our cars originally. Probably need about .5 lbs of propane if you were to convert it over. Even if it leaked out, we're talking about the flammability of maybe a dozen cigarette lighters.

Buuuuut, the servicing of it is cheap. You're only putting in about 10 cents worth of propane. So the A/C lobbyists didn't want that. Just like they didn't want R12 substitutes on the market until a couple years after R134a was on the market. Most people had converted already by the time they allowed cheap R12 substitutes on the market. The fact that you have 100 lbs of flammable gasoline in the back is fine. It's even legal to drive around with a gas can in your trunk.

jay_d

what ever happened to the days of glass packs bolted on the headers?

Cflick

I would argue that a more valid assumption is that the people actually doing the testing are not competent to know what they are looking at, and not at all that "we" are evil, or clueless.
Every time I'm required to go through this, I talk to those people. Two reasons : One is to distract them from what they are looking at, so they won't notice a few details. Two, to find out just who is checking up on me. I find they are out of work dry-wallers, starving artists, and the like, hardly mechanics, engineers, or emissions experts.
SO, do we allow any and all mods, as long as the tailpipe is clean at the test ?
Do we really expect the 22 year old girl fresh out of college with a teaching degree for challenged inner city children to decide whether or not a dual exhaust system is helping, or hurting under all possible conditions ?
In persuit of one size fits all, economy of scale, far better to simply require that the vehicle fits the checklist that any third grader can do, than to require degreed automotive emissions engineers with a minimum ten years field experience ONLY to conduct tests.
So, we all suffer for the few who would gut a cat in the misguided belief that it'll double the horsepower on their rusted out fifth hand Camaro with 250K miles and no maintenence.
More than likely, you can do what you wish, within the rules, as long as you play by the rules, and take every advantage those rules offer.

Example.
Here in Ohio, you will pass the test, even if you fail, IF you can show $100 in receipts for "repairs" AND your second run through the test shows a 30% improvement over the first run. Think about that.
You will also "pass" IF you can show $300 in receipts regardless.
Very likely, if you know the rules, you can play the game, for better or worse.
Unless you're a scum-bag, you'll play for better. If you play for worse, you deserve what you get, we ALL suffer as a result, and I'm thankful there are rules to prevent commercial shops from helping you make it worse for me.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'm certainly not going to argue that there isn't some silliness in the current emissions regulations, or that the manufacturers aren't heavily involved in the process. I would argue that the manufacturers have learned their lesson that planned obsolescence is a bad business plan (the Japanese taught them that). The only ones I hear wanting to get older cars off the road are tree huggers. Of course, they also want to do away with the internal combustion engine.

As for paying the ransom if your car doesn't clean up enough with repairs, it's a compromise. The other choices are to spend even more money to bring it into compliance, or take the car off the road.

I'm particularly encouraged by the potential for E85, and would like to see that prosper without government interference. We haven't even begun to tap that as a cleaner-burning alternative energy source. We need to get away from using corn and looking to more efficient sugar sources, stop paying to keep land out of production, and convert tobacco land to sugar producing crops. All of the technology exists, but the infrastructure and incentive system (read: "profit") do not.

I looked at the public profiles of you recent posters, and unless you lied when you signed up, those that included the information are all old enough to vote. So, I would suggest these steps:

1) Be personally responsible. As Paul Harvey puts it, "Self government without self discipline won't work." If you don't keep your cars running clean, then you've just disqualified yourself from this discussion. I'm taking advantage of local regulations that allow me to forgo inspection and testing, but that doesn't mean I'm letting my cars run dirty.

2) Get out and vote. Get involved in the process at the lowest possible level. But, don't vote for ANY Democrat at any level. Their MO is that everyone is a victim, so they need to tell you how to live in order to protect you from evil-doers (and, you are an evil-doer, in case you were wondering). That party and our congress are currently controlled by liberal, socialist, earth-worshiping, collectivist, guilt-ridden, some-animals-are-more-equal-than-other-animals two-faced elitist pigs, and until they are tossed out on their ear, you can expect more of the same. And, things will keep getting worse until they are. Don't be fooled by a "good Democrat" - as long as they associate with the above, they are part of the problem. This doesn't mean that any Republican is automatically the right answer - we need to keep them accountable as well.

3) See Step #1.

TA

iTrader: (1)

It's interesting to see that many of you in other states are "catching up" to California in some ways, but trying to have a smog-tested high performance car here is incredibly frustrating.

My experience with actual testers has been different. As our laws change almost every other year, and require re-certification, the "out of work artists" find other methods to make a living, those doing the testing are pretty knowledgeable and very **** about what they will allow to pass. No, they're not automotive engineers, but they know their business.

All smog tests are done with machines that are connected with the State computer in Sacramento, so you don't get a paper certificate any more, it's all "online". If the computer gets any "questionable" information from your test unit, it shuts down your machine and your ability to do business until the "State service guy" can come out and interview you and unlock your computer. Big brother lives!

TA

TA

iTrader: (1)

Example.
Here in Ohio, you will pass the test, even if you fail, IF you can show $100 in receipts for "repairs" AND your second run through the test shows a 30% improvement over the first run. Think about that.
You will also "pass" IF you can show $300 in receipts regardless.
Very likely, if you know the rules, you can play the game, for better or worse.
Unless you're a scum-bag, you'll play for better. If you play for worse, you deserve what you get, we ALL suffer as a result, and I'm thankful there are rules to prevent commercial shops from helping you make it worse for me.[/QUOTE]

My example: I go with "fast burn" heads, rebuild the engine with efficiency and less parasitic loss, tighten up everything so that it burns 60% cleaner than it did when new, regardless of equipment present. Because my dual cats are much closer to the exhaust ports, where the work better, I cannot get the "repair reciept" wavier, because the car has been "tampered". There is no limit on repairs spending to correct "tampering", unless Ohio laws are different than California. So I create a car with better mileage, significantly better emissions and much better power, but it's illegal to drive? THAT is what I'm snivelling about.

TA

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I believe the same is true in NJ, if you spend more than $300 and fail after your 3rd try you get an exemption sticker or something along those lines. It is all Someone is profiting from it all or fail would mean fail. Legally they CAN tell you if you do not pass you can not drive your car make the conclusions you want
I dont have to pass the sniffer where I live and they give me a hard time about the fact I dont have air tubes when the replacement cat I bought does not have the provisions. I could be pouring gasoline out the exhaust, but if the proper equpment is not there.........