Fbody fan 35yrs

I did a search on header bolts and one of the members said he used lock tight on his bolts and didn't have any problems with them backing out. The last set of headers I had on a car (it's been a few years back....... quite a few) I used allen head cap screws to bolt them up, and it worked great. I still have the little cut off allen wrench I used to get the hard to get ones. I know about the bolts with the little locking clip, but I would rather use the cap screws if the lock tight works. Any thoughts on cap screws, or lock tight would be appreciated.

DauntlessZ28

That's a good question dude. I wish I woulda thought of that. I don't see why it wouldn't work. I think the LockTite Red is good for crankcase bolts and should be tolerant to a lot of heat. If it's good enough for that, I don't see why you couldn't use it for header bolts.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The "best" grade of Locktite is loosened with heat below the temp the header bolts will get to.

Locktite isn't effective on header bolts. This other guy may not have had any problems using it, but it didn't do him any good, either.

25THRSS

GM put locktite on the LS1 manifold bolts from the factory and mine never backed out so I would assume it would be ok. I also put it on the header bolts and they haven't backed out either. Stage 8 locking header bolts would be the sure way to go though.

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

Exactly what I was gonna say. The RED locktite is the most heat resistant, but still not enough for the temp of cylinder heads and exhaust bolts...

MrDude_1

now the locktite may jam and gum up the bolt enough that it wont move... however, heat is one of the main methods used to loosen locktite red.:lala:


ive been wanting to try these fasteners since i read about them.. they're bolts that have been slotted into 4s and tapped with a pipe thread.

when you tighten a allen set screw in them, they expand and lock onto the head.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Yes they seem like the ultimate header bolt. I could only use a few of the tabs from my stage 8's because the primaries were so close to the bolt. A little grinding wasn't going to cut it.

CamaroMike

Too hot!? The threadlocker blue goes to 300 degrees F! Last I checked any good engine does not go above 225 degrees F. Yes, and I know the headers get very hot but the threads are in the cylinder head and the flange is against the clyinder head where the cooling system can keep this area below 300 degrees F. Not to metion some like me who has JET-HOT coated headers. I know those headers don't get over 300 degrees F because I can damn near touch them when the engine is runnning! I have used blue loctite for years on header bolts and no losening yet.

MrDude_1

ive never liked stage8s.....


currently i just run copper gaskets, install the header, drive for a 5days or so, then resnug the bolts, then check them a week later.

usually they dont move after i resnug them....

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Exhuast gasses reach temps of 1600*F. The header bolts won't get that hot but can easily see 1000* temps since they are so close to the ports. The temps you mention are combustion wall temps with proper cooling.

MrDude_1

not even.


the temps he mentions are from the outer edges of the waterjacket... like where the head plugs are, or the top of the intake manifold.


the actual water temps on the very edge of the chamber are higher. thats why the cooling system NEEDS to be pressurized, even with a low thermostat.

CamaroMike

The combustion event gets to 1600 degrees F. The headers, even uncoated ones never see over 600 degrees just after the port. Jet-Hot headers don't even get close to 300 degrees F! Loctite works fine!

MrDude_1

i have no idea if locktite works or not... so im not debating that... i dont know.


im just saying, they see over 220*


i do know, if it does work, it has to be a b!tch to remove the header..... i dont know about you, but my header bolts are the smaller 3/8" head ones, and that a bit small for breaking a locktite bolt loose with a open wrench.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I don't suppose that could be for anti-seize rather than locking.

I've had engines with aluminum castings before, but not an LS1, so I don't really know what they're doing here. But, I do keep a tube of anti-seize around for steel threaded to aluminum.

MrDude_1

almost every bolt in the LS1 has some form of factory anti-seize on it.... im not sure about the exhaust manifold bolts, but id bet they did have antisieze ont hem.

CamaroMike

That's why you use BLUE TEMPORARY loctite. NOT PERMANANT RED!

MrDude_1

lol obviously.

but i would think it would still be a pain to get the bolt out.. :lala:

ljnowell

Ever see a header glow? I dont know about you but 1200 degree header paint burns off, i dont see how you could trust that lock-tite to withstand that. Headers get HOT and stay that way.

CamaroMike

OOPS! My bad. I forgot to mention that the engine was properly tuned............

ljnowell

Tuned or not, 300 degrees would be piece of cake for headers to hit, in no time at all.

CamaroMike

I completely agree there! 300 degrees is nothing for a header to hit unless it is Jet-Hot coated but my major point of concern is with the threads in the cylinder head. I think 300 would be close but the loctite should hold up. It is at least better than tightening the bolts every two weeks.

spartyon

camaro mike,
i think you are getting mixed up with engine temperature and exhaust temperature. the reason the engine stays under 300 is because it constantly has water running through it. where's the water running through your exhaust to cool down that fire from the cylinder? there is none. that is why your headers see heats in excess of 1200*.

ljnowell

I got to agree man, jet-hot or not, them headers are gettin HOT. 300 would be the low side as it warms up.

CamaroMike

I do realize that the actual gasses that pass through the header tube hit 1200 degrees F or higher. The difference for the bolt threads in the head is that the treaded boss is exposed to coolant inside the engine, constantly keeping the threaded area at a temp cooler than 300 degrees F. Just my opinion, no facts to back it up but I do believe it is a reasonable theory.

25THRSS

It's locktite. I'm sure. If it was for antiseize then they would put antiseize on them. Even the gm manual instructs you to put locktite on the threads.

LB9GTA

iTrader: (1)

I am putting headers on in a couple of weeks and I came up with an idea. I drilled holes thru the top of the header bolt, then got stainless steel wire and a wire tightner, and i am going to wire them not to move. I talked to a guy at a airplane shop and they say it works for planes!!

iceman02

iTrader: (1)

Sure, airplanes do use plenty of safety wire, but it might look kind of goofy on your headers. I thought it was hard enough to get those little clips on the stage 8 header bolts, much less try to work a bunch of safety wire around header bolts. I don't see how that would be feasable. What do you hook the safety wire to anyway???

LB9GTA

iTrader: (1)

Hard to explain, but the wires would go thru the hole, then have a whole bunch of twists(then either go under the header or one over and under the header, haven't decided yet) then thru the next bolt then do all bolts. I haven't done it yet but you don't think it would work? Might look wierd, but I will never have to tighten them again and if I need to take them off I will cut the wires and put new ones on.

LB9GTA

iceman02

iTrader: (1)

Might work, but two things come to mind. First, I would imagine it would look pretty tacky. Second, seems like it would be a PITA. But then again, stage 8 bolts aren't easy to get on with the engine already installed either, but I would still go the conventional route and use some type of locking bolt if that is your intention. Those type with the allen head look promising, but I have never used them myself. Next time I need some though, I'm going to try those.

MrDude_1

when you have a set of saftey wire pliers, and know how to do it, it doesnt look tacky at all, its pretty simple to do, and quite effective.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

As to the header temps, I've got a set of SLP stainless Tri-Y's that are ceramic coated both inside and out by ACS. Just for grins the other night I put my infrared temp gun on them to see how hot they were with the engine running and warmed up good. Did it because I'm worried about the closeness of a couple of a couple of my MSD 8.5mm plug wires. Anyway, the the gun only reads to 500 F and it was reading over 475 just a couple of inches from the exhaust ports on some and appearing to just barely top out on the gun on others (like the ones down under all the pollution junk on the passenger side up on the front part of the motor). So the header temps are definitely in the 500 degree range minimum, even with coated headers, and that's with a couple of inches of header length to have a slight opportunity to start to cool off a little (temps would drop to 375-400 another 4-6 inches away).

Hope this helps a little with that question.

Have a Great Day!!!


- Vern

CamaroMike

I just wonder why Jet-Hot ads show header temps of less than 300 degrees. Makes me wonder if a lot of our engines run lean.

Fbody fan 35yrs

That was fun!..................... but as yet an unsolved mystery. I just have never had any good luck with hex head header bolts,(grade 8's are hex head I think) they are always too close to the tubes at some point in the tightening process. Allen head cap screws always worked so well. My mac headers come with a copper gasket, and as was mentioned earlier, usually a couple of snug ups will take care of it. Has anyone ever put copper coat gasket sealer on their copper header gaskets? Thanks for the interest in my topic. I may have to tap a block of steel, Locktite a bolt in, heat it up with a torch, and see what happens.

iceman02

iTrader: (1)

LB9GTA, if you do the safety wire idea, post a pic here.... you've peaked my curiosity. I probably will never do it, but I'm interested to see how it would come out and the effectiveness of it.

LB9GTA

iTrader: (1)

I am going to do the headers in a couple of weeks. I can take pics with my digital camera but how do you post pics?
By the way, what does PITA mean, I fairly new here?!!
I will start a new post when I do the home wire fix.

LB9GTA

TA

iTrader: (1)

PITA = Pain in the Asterisk

I used to be on a pit crew, and we safety wired everything. With a good set of safety wire pliers ( special for the purpose, get good ones) and with stainless safety wire also for that purpose, they are very easy to do, and work well enough that aircraft mechanics and racers will not use anything else. They will never fail.

They are also very quick and easy to remove and replace. Remember a pit crew won't put up with something that slows them down. You do not need to run the same line through every bolt, use several lines. They do not need to be tight, the stiffness of the wire will keep the bolts from backing out. Drilling the bolts (we always used socket head cap screws, or "Allen" bolts) should be done in a fixture made for it, or it will be a pain in the butt and look sloppy. I am looking at installing headers later this year, and I guarantee they will be safety wired and look tidy, racy and very professional.

Troy
So Cal

MrDude_1

yup what he said... i learned to do it from working in a aircraft shop.
you only need to connect two bolts... you do it in a reverse S shape.. its pretty easy if you have the saftey wire pliers. you just grab the wire in the pliers, lock the handle closed, and pull the **** at the end... it will spin the pliers for you. real quick.

chio987

i just got some blue med strength threadlock (max temp +300 F) and i told the parts guys what i was doing and they sed this will work fine, they all know what they r talking about (as most of them have rebuilt cars) and he sed that altho the headers and tubes get really hot the head itself (where the bolts go into) don't get near that and this locktight should be fine.

MrDude_1

for a short time, i worked as a part guy.






dont trust their advice on anything.

ljnowell

yeah, the parts guys dont always know everything.....or anything. By the way, pick up a dictionary

MrDude_1

i cant spell worth a shiznit either. i goto www.dictionary.com all the time.

ljnowell

one of my personal favorites, cause they list the slang too. Now I know what all those little punks are trying to say to me.

MrDude_1

if you need to figure out what all the latest slang is, goto www.urbandictionary.com .... shibby.