Notes on Installation of Hooker Long Tube Headers (2210)
12-09-2002 | 11:35 AM
#1
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Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Notes on Installation of Hooker Long Tube Headers (2210)
I installed the Hooker Long Tube 2210's not too long ago and I wanted to write down my installation notes for everyone...
Pictures and Sounds (pictures are high quality 500k+):
Some pictures of the installed headers:
http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/e...ders/longtube/
Ground clearance pictures (the rearend is sitting a little high because I forgot to take the air out of my rear airbags from the last trip to the dragstrip):
http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/e...ube/clearance/
Sound with open headers:
2.6M WMV file - http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/m...en_headers.wmv
Idle sound with full exhaust connected (yummy).
A) Full Exhaust = Hooker Long tubes, Mufflex Y-Pipe, no cats, Flowmaster Force II single 3" in/out exhaust (PN 17150). To be more specific, the 17150 system comes with a 30-Series muffler with a PN of 53033.
1.3M WMV file - http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/movies/idle.wmv
B) Full Exhaust = Hooker Long tubes, Mufflex Y-Pipe, no cats, Flowmaster Force II intermediate pipe with a dynomax UltraFlo Welded straight through single 3" in/out muffler. To be more specific, this muffler is PN 17233. As far as I know, I am the first one to try this muffler on an F-Body.
2.84M WMV file - http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/m...nomax_idle.wmv
Installation Notes:
1) If the motor and tranny are in the car the headers will slip in from underneath the car. If the motor is out of the car then you will need to lay/tie the headers to the fenderwell as you drop the motor in. The motor will not drop in with the headers attached.
2) You'll need a ministarter or an LT1 starter.
3) I relocated the knock sensor to the driver's side because there is more clearance there.
4) I had to grind on the front driver's side part of the k-member where the a-arm attaches (front corner) to ensure I wouldn't get any rattles there. Very minor clearancing – probably not even necessary but I wanted to be sure. Click HERE to see the minor clearancing.
5) I had to grind on the passenger side of the k-member where the LT was touching. Primary tube #8 was touching the K-Member here. This had to be clearanced for my application. Click HERE to see the problem.
6) The driver's side header demands that you jack the engine up in order to slip the header in from the bottom. You’ll have to remove the oil sending unit and the filter.
7) The passenger side header slips in with no jacking of the motor (starter removed).
8) To install the headers you want to point the collectors STRAIGHT down at the ground and rotate into place.
9) You need to install the starter while installing the passenger header - it’s the only way. I was able to do this by myself but two people would have made it easier.
10) I used Permatex Copper RTV around the slip tube (ala MAFB).
11) You can't run the stock oil cooler with these headers - it needs to be removed or modified. Rick Lindstedt modified his and made it functional (Skweezn87).
12) You have 2 options with regard to the oxygen sensor. If you are getting a Mufflex Y-pipe then you can order it with O2 sensor bungs. Problem solved. If you have a custom Y-pipe or if you want to put it in the header then the oxygen sensor bung should go on the driver's side TOP of the collector - not the side. There’s more clearance on the top. Get it welded in before you get the headers coated. Definitely consider using a heated O2 sensor. Part numbers and info on this can be found by using the search. I’m using a ’92 Corvette ZR1 heated O2 (bosch 13077). Click HERE to see how the O2 sensor is installed.
13) If you are going to run the Mufflex TPI-Y pipe for the hooker 2210’s (Part Number TPI-Y or TPI-Y O2 available from Mufflex Performance) then be prepared that it will most likely not ‘bolt-in’. I have to take the car to a local speed shop to have them chop up and reweld it. The passenger side hit the passenger side frame rail. The driver’s side didn’t hit anything but tucked up way too close to the stock Torque Arm mount.
14) If you are mating a Mufflex Y to a 3" catback then you will need a 4"-to-3" adapter.
15) No matter what - do not expect to bolt-up the mufflex y-pipe to the I-pipe of your catback. You will need to separate your I-pipe from the converter (or from the bend that goes to the manifold y-pipe if you don't have a converter). You'll then need to either shorten or lengthen your I-pipe to the correct length to mate to the mufflex y-pipe. If you are using the 4"-to-3" adapter then you can expect to expand the entry into your I-pipe so that the y-pipe 4"-to-3" adapter can fit into it. My personal experience shows that a flowmaster force II catback for a dual cat car requires an extra section of 3" pipe since the Mufflex y-pipe is about a foot away from that system's I-pipe (because the after-cat special flowmaster y-pipe from this system is no longer used).
16) Consider Installing some ES poly engine mounts or new engine mounts before taking on this project. The last thing you want is to get everything installed and then replace your motor mounts at a later date and realize there are interference problems. It's easier to deal with these interference problems during the install. NOTE that my installation of the ES Poly engine mounts may have been why I had to do a little bit of extra clearancing. But, this only a possible explanation - it has not been proven.
17) I pulled all the wiring that wrapped around the bottom of the driver's side oil pan and reworked it - not necessary but this will ensure you don't toast any of the wires on the long tubes.
18) The 2210’s have great clearance with L98 angle plugs (my experience) and regular angle plugs (Rick Lindstedt's experience) when using 90 degree spark plug boots. Straight plugs will have a clearance problem with plug #7 (Phil87IROC's experience). To fix the problem with the #7 plug Phil made a shorty plug. To see Phil's pictures click HERE.
19) Be careful when running the positive battery cable to the starter. The passenger primary tubes tuck up pretty close. I used the stock bracket that bolts to the block to secure the cables and ordered some Fire Sleeve from Summit to ensure the wires are protected.
20) I used a Lokar engine dipstick (ED5001). Very expensive but works great for this application. With the LTs there is nowhere to mount the dipstick.
David Tuschoff also has a nice Hooker Long Tube installation with some great pics from underneath the car. He had a custom stainless Y-Pipe fabricated. His website is:
http://exit3.i-55.com/~davidlt/exhaust.htm
That’s everything that I can think of for right now.
Tim
Pictures and Sounds (pictures are high quality 500k+):
Some pictures of the installed headers:
http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/e...ders/longtube/
Ground clearance pictures (the rearend is sitting a little high because I forgot to take the air out of my rear airbags from the last trip to the dragstrip):
http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/e...ube/clearance/
Sound with open headers:
2.6M WMV file - http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/m...en_headers.wmv
Idle sound with full exhaust connected (yummy).
A) Full Exhaust = Hooker Long tubes, Mufflex Y-Pipe, no cats, Flowmaster Force II single 3" in/out exhaust (PN 17150). To be more specific, the 17150 system comes with a 30-Series muffler with a PN of 53033.
1.3M WMV file - http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/movies/idle.wmv
B) Full Exhaust = Hooker Long tubes, Mufflex Y-Pipe, no cats, Flowmaster Force II intermediate pipe with a dynomax UltraFlo Welded straight through single 3" in/out muffler. To be more specific, this muffler is PN 17233. As far as I know, I am the first one to try this muffler on an F-Body.
2.84M WMV file - http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/m...nomax_idle.wmv
Installation Notes:
1) If the motor and tranny are in the car the headers will slip in from underneath the car. If the motor is out of the car then you will need to lay/tie the headers to the fenderwell as you drop the motor in. The motor will not drop in with the headers attached.
2) You'll need a ministarter or an LT1 starter.
3) I relocated the knock sensor to the driver's side because there is more clearance there.
4) I had to grind on the front driver's side part of the k-member where the a-arm attaches (front corner) to ensure I wouldn't get any rattles there. Very minor clearancing – probably not even necessary but I wanted to be sure. Click HERE to see the minor clearancing.
5) I had to grind on the passenger side of the k-member where the LT was touching. Primary tube #8 was touching the K-Member here. This had to be clearanced for my application. Click HERE to see the problem.
6) The driver's side header demands that you jack the engine up in order to slip the header in from the bottom. You’ll have to remove the oil sending unit and the filter.
7) The passenger side header slips in with no jacking of the motor (starter removed).
8) To install the headers you want to point the collectors STRAIGHT down at the ground and rotate into place.
9) You need to install the starter while installing the passenger header - it’s the only way. I was able to do this by myself but two people would have made it easier.
10) I used Permatex Copper RTV around the slip tube (ala MAFB).
11) You can't run the stock oil cooler with these headers - it needs to be removed or modified. Rick Lindstedt modified his and made it functional (Skweezn87).
12) You have 2 options with regard to the oxygen sensor. If you are getting a Mufflex Y-pipe then you can order it with O2 sensor bungs. Problem solved. If you have a custom Y-pipe or if you want to put it in the header then the oxygen sensor bung should go on the driver's side TOP of the collector - not the side. There’s more clearance on the top. Get it welded in before you get the headers coated. Definitely consider using a heated O2 sensor. Part numbers and info on this can be found by using the search. I’m using a ’92 Corvette ZR1 heated O2 (bosch 13077). Click HERE to see how the O2 sensor is installed.
13) If you are going to run the Mufflex TPI-Y pipe for the hooker 2210’s (Part Number TPI-Y or TPI-Y O2 available from Mufflex Performance) then be prepared that it will most likely not ‘bolt-in’. I have to take the car to a local speed shop to have them chop up and reweld it. The passenger side hit the passenger side frame rail. The driver’s side didn’t hit anything but tucked up way too close to the stock Torque Arm mount.
14) If you are mating a Mufflex Y to a 3" catback then you will need a 4"-to-3" adapter.
15) No matter what - do not expect to bolt-up the mufflex y-pipe to the I-pipe of your catback. You will need to separate your I-pipe from the converter (or from the bend that goes to the manifold y-pipe if you don't have a converter). You'll then need to either shorten or lengthen your I-pipe to the correct length to mate to the mufflex y-pipe. If you are using the 4"-to-3" adapter then you can expect to expand the entry into your I-pipe so that the y-pipe 4"-to-3" adapter can fit into it. My personal experience shows that a flowmaster force II catback for a dual cat car requires an extra section of 3" pipe since the Mufflex y-pipe is about a foot away from that system's I-pipe (because the after-cat special flowmaster y-pipe from this system is no longer used).
16) Consider Installing some ES poly engine mounts or new engine mounts before taking on this project. The last thing you want is to get everything installed and then replace your motor mounts at a later date and realize there are interference problems. It's easier to deal with these interference problems during the install. NOTE that my installation of the ES Poly engine mounts may have been why I had to do a little bit of extra clearancing. But, this only a possible explanation - it has not been proven.
17) I pulled all the wiring that wrapped around the bottom of the driver's side oil pan and reworked it - not necessary but this will ensure you don't toast any of the wires on the long tubes.
18) The 2210’s have great clearance with L98 angle plugs (my experience) and regular angle plugs (Rick Lindstedt's experience) when using 90 degree spark plug boots. Straight plugs will have a clearance problem with plug #7 (Phil87IROC's experience). To fix the problem with the #7 plug Phil made a shorty plug. To see Phil's pictures click HERE.
19) Be careful when running the positive battery cable to the starter. The passenger primary tubes tuck up pretty close. I used the stock bracket that bolts to the block to secure the cables and ordered some Fire Sleeve from Summit to ensure the wires are protected.
20) I used a Lokar engine dipstick (ED5001). Very expensive but works great for this application. With the LTs there is nowhere to mount the dipstick.
David Tuschoff also has a nice Hooker Long Tube installation with some great pics from underneath the car. He had a custom stainless Y-Pipe fabricated. His website is:
http://exit3.i-55.com/~davidlt/exhaust.htm
That’s everything that I can think of for right now.
Tim
Last edited by TRAXION; 10-31-2004 at 08:21 PM.
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12-09-2002 | 11:47 AM
#2
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Joined: Feb 2000
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From: North Carolina
Car: 78 Vette Pace Car (730 ECM MOD)
Engine: 427 SBC
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Looks like you have it pretty much covered... 
I did modify my factory oil cooler to work w/ LT's tho... not real hard.
Rick
I did modify my factory oil cooler to work w/ LT's tho... not real hard.
Rick
12-09-2002 | 01:39 PM
#4
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Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Decatur, Illinois
Mine didnt. Mine fit right in. I also used ported stock style heads where as he used afrs (I would if I could afford it right now ) I also used stock replacement motor mounts and I believe he used es poly mounts. The reason I didnt go polly is because I had heard from several people that they raise the motor up around 1-1.5 inches and I didnt want to deal with clearance issues. Speaking of that did it seem to raise your motor up any? I figure if I break one I will use the poly or do something like the grand national guys do and strap one side of the engine mount down to the crosmemeber. I am thinking though it seems like they usually say that those raise the motor up around 1.5 inches. If that is the case it could be why you had to have the muflex pipe modified to work. By the way I started my car up for the first time this last weekend with the new motor and open headers. Man it sounds mean. Oh, and do you have pics with the y pipe installed so i can see what kind of modification had to be made to clear. The mufflex pipe has 2 3" pipes that merge into one 4 dont they?
Ben
) I also used stock replacement motor mounts and I believe he used es poly mounts. The reason I didnt go polly is because I had heard from several people that they raise the motor up around 1-1.5 inches and I didnt want to deal with clearance issues. Speaking of that did it seem to raise your motor up any? I figure if I break one I will use the poly or do something like the grand national guys do and strap one side of the engine mount down to the crosmemeber. I am thinking though it seems like they usually say that those raise the motor up around 1.5 inches. If that is the case it could be why you had to have the muflex pipe modified to work. By the way I started my car up for the first time this last weekend with the new motor and open headers. Man it sounds mean. Oh, and do you have pics with the y pipe installed so i can see what kind of modification had to be made to clear. The mufflex pipe has 2 3" pipes that merge into one 4 dont they?Ben
12-09-2002 | 06:53 PM
#6
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 558
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From: Baton Rouge, LA USA
I had my O2 bung welded at the 3 o'clock position if your looking at the collector. Plenty of room with a 5speed. Pic below.
Under chassis pic of long tubes
Also, I didn't have to jack up any side of the engine. Maybe I got lucky. Great write up Trax.
Under chassis pic of long tubes
Also, I didn't have to jack up any side of the engine. Maybe I got lucky. Great write up Trax.
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12-09-2002 | 10:33 PM
#8
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Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Decatur, Illinois
Originally posted by David 91RS/Z28
I had my O2 bung welded at the 3 o'clock position if your looking at the collector. Plenty of room with a 5speed. Pic below.
Under chassis pic of long tubes
Also, I didn't have to jack up any side of the engine. Maybe I got lucky. Great write up Trax.
I had my O2 bung welded at the 3 o'clock position if your looking at the collector. Plenty of room with a 5speed. Pic below.
Under chassis pic of long tubes
Also, I didn't have to jack up any side of the engine. Maybe I got lucky. Great write up Trax.
Ben
12-10-2002 | 08:51 AM
#9
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Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,844
Likes: 3
From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Originally posted by David 91RS/Z28
I had my O2 bung welded at the 3 o'clock position if your looking at the collector. Plenty of room with a 5speed. Pic below.
Under chassis pic of long tubes
Also, I didn't have to jack up any side of the engine. Maybe I got lucky. Great write up Trax.
I had my O2 bung welded at the 3 o'clock position if your looking at the collector. Plenty of room with a 5speed. Pic below.
Under chassis pic of long tubes
Also, I didn't have to jack up any side of the engine. Maybe I got lucky. Great write up Trax.
I am surprised that you didn't have to jack up the driver's side. Hmph.
Off subject here - what do you think of the CC 987 springs? I'm still running the stock AFR springs and am getting worried. You have probably heard about Mike D's trouble with them and I know that you talked to Kevin about the 987s. How high do you rev your motor? Also - What does it take to make the 987s fit the standard AFR spring pockets? Do I have to modify the pockets or the springs? Would be cool if I could just call up Thunder, get a set, and slap them on the car with the heads still installed.
Tim
12-10-2002 | 10:52 AM
#10
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 558
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From: Baton Rouge, LA USA
Originally posted by Momar
What size is your y pipe before it merges? Does it have to lower to clear the crossmember or does it go straight back?
Ben
What size is your y pipe before it merges? Does it have to lower to clear the crossmember or does it go straight back?
Ben
12-10-2002 | 11:19 AM
#11
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Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Baton Rouge, LA USA
Originally posted by TRAXION
Thanks for the props Dave. BTW - before you even posted I had already printed out your pics for the exhaust shop that will be 'fixing' my Mufflex Y-pipe. I know that yours is a custom stainless Y and is different than the Mufflex but at least they will see what a good exhaust can look like
I am surprised that you didn't have to jack up the driver's side. Hmph.
Off subject here - what do you think of the CC 987 springs? I'm still running the stock AFR springs and am getting worried. You have probably heard about Mike D's trouble with them and I know that you talked to Kevin about the 987s. How high do you rev your motor? Also - What does it take to make the 987s fit the standard AFR spring pockets? Do I have to modify the pockets or the springs? Would be cool if I could just call up Thunder, get a set, and slap them on the car with the heads still installed.
Tim
Thanks for the props Dave. BTW - before you even posted I had already printed out your pics for the exhaust shop that will be 'fixing' my Mufflex Y-pipe. I know that yours is a custom stainless Y and is different than the Mufflex but at least they will see what a good exhaust can look like
I am surprised that you didn't have to jack up the driver's side. Hmph.
Off subject here - what do you think of the CC 987 springs? I'm still running the stock AFR springs and am getting worried. You have probably heard about Mike D's trouble with them and I know that you talked to Kevin about the 987s. How high do you rev your motor? Also - What does it take to make the 987s fit the standard AFR spring pockets? Do I have to modify the pockets or the springs? Would be cool if I could just call up Thunder, get a set, and slap them on the car with the heads still installed.
Tim
As for the springs, they work awesome. With the cam your using, you better change the springs. I would put money on it that you will see valve float. I shift my car around 6000rpms. With the stock AFR springs I was getting float at 5800rpms. With the new springs, no problem. I set them up at about 1.85" for aproximate 130lbs on the seat. I'm also using the Ti retainer. These springs have a lot of room to be setup for very large camshafts. We use them religously on all our double spring LS1 cylinder heads(hydraulic roller). For installation on the AFR heads w/o machining all you will need to do is machine down the locator about .10" The locator that is used with these springs are 1.55" diameter and the pocket in the AFR head is aproximately 1.45" or so. When I installed mine I just trimmed them down on a belt sander while rotating the locator. Be sure to trim, trial fit, trim and fit as you want the locator to just fit in the pocket. Send me an email at work (david@thunderracing.com) and I will get back with you on pricing and parts.
12-10-2002 | 12:11 PM
#12
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,844
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From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
What's weird is that I apparantly am one of the only ones NOT experiencing valve float ... yet. Trust me - I have taken the car to 6600rpms on multiple occasions with no float. I'm also running the AFR HydraRev. But, something is definitely different with my AFR head combo as compared to other people. The 230 Xtreme lobe is definitely agressive so I would have expected to see float. In any case - I appreciate the post and what it takes in order to make them fit. But, I think that I probably need something stronger because the 987 specs are basically the exact same as the specs for the springs that AFR installs. Unfortunately, that ultimately means that I will have to pull the heads and have the seats machined for bigger springs.
Have you taken your car up to 6500? Are you running the stock AFR valves?
Tim
Have you taken your car up to 6500? Are you running the stock AFR valves?
Tim
12-10-2002 | 12:34 PM
#13
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Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Decatur, Illinois
I am no expert but I would think it was because of your rev kit. I thought that was supposed to make it so that you didnt have to run as heavy of springs to prevent valve float so you wouldnt collapse lifters with to heavy of springs. The kit claims to stop valvefloat and of coarse you are going to need to use a correct spring pressure, but what is correct with the rev kit? Basically what I am trying to say is usually the valve spring has to hold the lifter in the bore on its own but with the rev kit holding it down also that should factor in. Since the lifter is held down by the rev kit(to an extent) then the main job of the valve spring is just to keep the play out of the valve train and make sure the valve closes. From the pictures I doubt that it would be safe to let the rev kit do even most of the work of holding down the lifter, but isnt part of what these kits do is also is hold down the lifter in the bore to keep you from loosing oil pressure if you have a part fail in your valvtrain so the pushrod is no longer holding the lifter in the bore Well, I guess correct me if I am wrong but that is what I understood it to do. Anyway, if this is true even to an extent how much lower should the spring pressure be with the rev kit. Do you know how much pressure the springs on the rev kit are supposed to produce?
Ben
Ben
12-10-2002 | 03:08 PM
#14
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 558
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From: Baton Rouge, LA USA
Originally posted by TRAXION
What's weird is that I apparantly am one of the only ones NOT experiencing valve float ... yet. Trust me - I have taken the car to 6600rpms on multiple occasions with no float. I'm also running the AFR HydraRev. But, something is definitely different with my AFR head combo as compared to other people. The 230 Xtreme lobe is definitely agressive so I would have expected to see float. In any case - I appreciate the post and what it takes in order to make them fit. But, I think that I probably need something stronger because the 987 specs are basically the exact same as the specs for the springs that AFR installs. Unfortunately, that ultimately means that I will have to pull the heads and have the seats machined for bigger springs.
Have you taken your car up to 6500? Are you running the stock AFR valves?
Tim
What's weird is that I apparantly am one of the only ones NOT experiencing valve float ... yet. Trust me - I have taken the car to 6600rpms on multiple occasions with no float. I'm also running the AFR HydraRev. But, something is definitely different with my AFR head combo as compared to other people. The 230 Xtreme lobe is definitely agressive so I would have expected to see float. In any case - I appreciate the post and what it takes in order to make them fit. But, I think that I probably need something stronger because the 987 specs are basically the exact same as the specs for the springs that AFR installs. Unfortunately, that ultimately means that I will have to pull the heads and have the seats machined for bigger springs.
Have you taken your car up to 6500? Are you running the stock AFR valves?
Tim
12-10-2002 | 07:52 PM
#15
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,844
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From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Hey Dave,
I am going off specs that Mike D. not only gathered from AFR techs but also via measuring his own springs. My springs are installed with 125# on the seat at 1.800". Mike D measured the springs as having a 352# which puts me at close to 320# at the nose (0.550 lift). With his springs shimmed to produce close to 330# on the nose he still got valve float. The CC 987s have a 344# rate. According to all the specs, they won't give me anything above and beyond what my current springs are doing.
Another point of note is that I got my AFRs long before you guys did. Maybe somehow the springs changed? Different manufacturers? Who knows. The part number on my invoice is still the same as what is supplied now.
I understand that you are using the 987s in some serious applications. But, applications such as the LS1's really don't count. The actual weight of the LS1 valves is so much lighter than the AFR valves. Thus, if the AFR heads have the stock valves then a much stiffer spring is needed. You might want to check with Mike/Kev ... they did A LOT of research on gathering valve weights along with measuring the stock AFR valve weights. I don't want to give away their research but let's just say I was surprised by the differences in weights.
Tim
I am going off specs that Mike D. not only gathered from AFR techs but also via measuring his own springs. My springs are installed with 125# on the seat at 1.800". Mike D measured the springs as having a 352# which puts me at close to 320# at the nose (0.550 lift). With his springs shimmed to produce close to 330# on the nose he still got valve float. The CC 987s have a 344# rate. According to all the specs, they won't give me anything above and beyond what my current springs are doing.
Another point of note is that I got my AFRs long before you guys did. Maybe somehow the springs changed? Different manufacturers? Who knows. The part number on my invoice is still the same as what is supplied now.
I understand that you are using the 987s in some serious applications. But, applications such as the LS1's really don't count. The actual weight of the LS1 valves is so much lighter than the AFR valves. Thus, if the AFR heads have the stock valves then a much stiffer spring is needed. You might want to check with Mike/Kev ... they did A LOT of research on gathering valve weights along with measuring the stock AFR valve weights. I don't want to give away their research but let's just say I was surprised by the differences in weights.
Tim
12-22-2002 | 11:47 AM
#16
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 247
Likes: 1
From: Tucson, Arizona
Car: 1987 IROC Z28
Engine: 6.0L LQ9 crate engine
Transmission: Performa Built 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.42 10 bolt, Eaton/Moser
60cc heads........
Trax,
How did you get 60cc chambers on your AFR 190s, mine are 64cc?? Milled?
Great looking motor Trax.
Let me know how the S-10 steering box "feels" on a road course type driving experience?
Thanks!!
How did you get 60cc chambers on your AFR 190s, mine are 64cc?? Milled?
Great looking motor Trax.
Let me know how the S-10 steering box "feels" on a road course type driving experience?
Thanks!!
12-22-2002 | 04:01 PM
#17
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,844
Likes: 3
From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Phil,
When I ordered my AFR heads I asked them for 60cc chambers. They cut them to whatever you want (with a fee of course).
The words "S10 Steering Box" and "road course type driving experience" don't mix. The S10 box is only an interim choice until I figure out how to get my power steering back.
Tim
When I ordered my AFR heads I asked them for 60cc chambers. They cut them to whatever you want (with a fee of course).
The words "S10 Steering Box" and "road course type driving experience" don't mix. The S10 box is only an interim choice until I figure out how to get my power steering back.
Tim
12-22-2002 | 07:05 PM
#18
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From: Decatur, Illinois
Originally posted by TRAXION
Phil,
When I ordered my AFR heads I asked them for 60cc chambers. They cut them to whatever you want (with a fee of course).
The words "S10 Steering Box" and "road course type driving experience" don't mix. The S10 box is only an interim choice until I figure out how to get my power steering back.
Tim
Phil,
When I ordered my AFR heads I asked them for 60cc chambers. They cut them to whatever you want (with a fee of course).
The words "S10 Steering Box" and "road course type driving experience" don't mix. The S10 box is only an interim choice until I figure out how to get my power steering back.
Tim
Ben
12-22-2002 | 07:50 PM
#19
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 247
Likes: 1
From: Tucson, Arizona
Car: 1987 IROC Z28
Engine: 6.0L LQ9 crate engine
Transmission: Performa Built 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.42 10 bolt, Eaton/Moser
Question........
I gotcha on the steering box, makes sense.
What is your CR, like 10.25:1 or so? How will the Vortec do on a 10+ CR motor?
Thanks,
Phil
PS: Good thing I have time off for Christmas, I need to make another "shorty plug" for cylinder #7!!
What is your CR, like 10.25:1 or so? How will the Vortec do on a 10+ CR motor?
Thanks,
Phil
PS: Good thing I have time off for Christmas, I need to make another "shorty plug" for cylinder #7!!
12-22-2002 | 08:27 PM
#20
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,844
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From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
I can't reuse the stock Power Steering setup due to the custom Vortech Bracket. My Compression Ratio is under 10. I don't know for sure what it is unless someone knows the cc's of the valve reliefs in the '90-'92 pistons? Piston design changed in 1990 and I can't find anything published regarding the size of the valve reliefs. My cranking compression is 185psi with a compression guage.
Tim
Tim
01-13-2003 | 06:49 PM
#23
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From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Momar,
To get pics of the y-pipe I would need to get the car on a lift but that isn't happening anytime soon
I think the just chopped and added some wedges.
Tim
To get pics of the y-pipe I would need to get the car on a lift but that isn't happening anytime soon
I think the just chopped and added some wedges.
Tim
01-13-2003 | 07:03 PM
#24
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From: north plainfield,nj,usa
hey TRAXION few quick questions about the headers. i was wounderin what is the part number for the hooker supercomp long tube headers for the 82-92 camaro from Jethot? also are all the primary tubes all welded on or is there a few on the passenger side that arent? also is there any way that jet hot could have them welded on or do u have to clamp any of the pipes becuz ive heard of people havein exuast leaks? thanx.
01-13-2003 | 07:12 PM
#25
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From: Decatur, Illinois
Well, I am not who you asked for, but I have them also. Anyway, There is one that slip fits and all of the rest are welded together. I have not heard of anybody having a problem with them leaking though. You are not supposed to need a clamp for it either. The reason it is like this is to allow access to the starter so I doubt you would want to have it welded. Oh, and the part number is 2210.
Ben
Ben
01-13-2003 | 07:37 PM
#27
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From: Decatur, Illinois
It just slides in there real tight and yes the bolts keep it from going anywhere. Here is a link to one of TRAXION's pictures with his out.
http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/headers/DCP_0690.JPG
Ben
http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/headers/DCP_0690.JPG
Ben
01-13-2003 | 07:53 PM
#28
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From: north plainfield,nj,usa
thanx for u r help my brother told me about that pipe and what he has heard but after hearing the results from u guys im not worried anymore about that pipe. sounds like im orderin them on wed.
01-13-2003 | 09:48 PM
#29
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From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
The key here is sealing the pipe during installation. Just use Permatex Copper Silicone. Smear it over the separate pipe with your finger ... be generous. Slip the tube in and bolt it up. Wait about 24hrs before firing her up. I learned this from the 4th-gen crowd. The hooker LTs for the 4th-gens have a slip fit on the #1. The permatex copper silicone method is tried and true.
Tim
Tim
01-13-2003 | 09:49 PM
#30
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From: Decatur, Illinois
Well, I didnt seal mine at all, but have only started it a couple of times so far. I guess if it does happen to leak I know how to fix it now. The good thing is its not real hard to pull that primary out.
Ben
Ben
01-14-2003 | 08:44 AM
#31
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From: north plainfield,nj,usa
hey thanx for that tip on the permatex stuff. and when my brother told me about that one tube leakin he told me the 4th gen guys have troblem with it leakin and what not and i guess u found a very nice simple solution to the problem. thanx for ur help guys.
01-15-2003 | 05:34 PM
#32
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From: Baton Rouge, LA USA
Originally posted by TRAXION
Hey Dave,
I understand that you are using the 987s in some serious applications. But, applications such as the LS1's really don't count. The actual weight of the LS1 valves is so much lighter than the AFR valves. Thus, if the AFR heads have the stock valves then a much stiffer spring is needed. You might want to check with Mike/Kev ... they did A LOT of research on gathering valve weights along with measuring the stock AFR valve weights. I don't want to give away their research but let's just say I was surprised by the differences in weights.
Tim
Hey Dave,
I understand that you are using the 987s in some serious applications. But, applications such as the LS1's really don't count. The actual weight of the LS1 valves is so much lighter than the AFR valves. Thus, if the AFR heads have the stock valves then a much stiffer spring is needed. You might want to check with Mike/Kev ... they did A LOT of research on gathering valve weights along with measuring the stock AFR valve weights. I don't want to give away their research but let's just say I was surprised by the differences in weights.
Tim
My AFR installed valves were as follows: Intake(Manley 2.02) = 109grams, Exhaust(REV) = 114.3grams. For whatever reason AFR used different manufactures on the valves for my heads??
Now, the LS1 valves I measured from one of our stage 2 cylinder heads: Intake(Ferrera) = 122, Exhaust(Ferrera) = 101.9. As you can see the intake was heavier and the exhaust was lighter. This is because the valves are actually longer. Now, I'm sure a stock LS1 valve would be pretty light, but whose going to use stock valves on a good set of heads.
BTW, your exhaust come out really good. I think the longtubes/mufflex is the best sounding combo on this earth!!
02-02-2003 | 11:16 AM
#34
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 692
Likes: 1
From: Orlando,Fl. USA
Car: 1990 GTA
Engine: 5.7 T.P.I.
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 3:23
oil cooler
Originally posted by Skweezn87
Looks like you have it pretty much covered...
I did modify my factory oil cooler to work w/ LT's tho... not real hard.
Rick
Looks like you have it pretty much covered...
I did modify my factory oil cooler to work w/ LT's tho... not real hard.
Rick
How ??
03-13-2003 | 09:56 AM
#35
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,844
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From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
I made some changes to include the latest information about this installation. All the changes have been incorporated into the first post of this topic. TTT.
Tim
Tim
03-13-2003 | 05:51 PM
#36
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From: Richmond,Va
Car: 91 Z/28
Engine: 6.3 L98
Transmission: TH350 4500 STALL
Axle/Gears: 3.73s
TRAXION? Was wondering how well the mufflex y pipe works.I am getting ready to put the exact setup on my car and wanted to know if the mufflex y pipe was worth the 250.00?Got any advice?
03-13-2003 | 07:36 PM
#37
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,844
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From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Is it worth $250? Well, honestly, I don't think so. Why? Because you'll probably spend another $100-$200 to have it installed since I have yet to hear ANYONE using this Y-pipe that was able to just bolt it in. I ended up paying $180 to have an exhaust shop spend 3 hours of work chopping it up and reinstalling it along with an extra 3" section to have it mated to my catback. I actually paid $150 for mine used so it ended up not being too bad. But, in the long run, what choice do we have? Either buy the mufflex y-pipe, have a shop fab one up, or do it yourself. The best approach remains to be seen.
Tim
Tim
03-13-2003 | 11:43 PM
#38
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From: north plainfield, nj
Car: 05' GTO
Engine: 6.0L
Transmission: A4
Hey traxion or anyone who has installed these. ive noticed that with almost everyone that has installed these headers , they've had the ES motor mounts and not the regulare rubber motor mounts. dont u think that it would be easier to install these headers becuz the motor isnt sittin like .75'' to 1.5'' or how ever much the ES mounts bring the motor up.
Like in ur case traxion, do u think the mufflex y pipe would have installed a bit easier ith regulare rubber motor mounts then the ES ones? since the motor is sittin down the y pipe isnt raised up higher in to the tranny xmember.
also how long has it taken someone to install these with no a/c and no emmissions in the car that has the regulare motor mounts? becuz i think u wouldnt be there grindin awhole lot to make clearence for the headers with the stock mounts.
and would it be bad to run the open headers for like a day at the most? becuz i can barrow a lift for 1day on a sunday when the shop isnt open and i know the people there so i can use the lift but with maybe like 2-3 people helpin how long do u think it will take to just install the headers, starter, plugs, wires, lockin header bolts, and to check for clearence issues?
also what should i use on the slipfit primary tube? ive heard use the copper rvt stuff, ive heard u could use antisieze, and i heard of something else but forgot what it was.
okay i think im done thinkin. all this stuff was runnin thru my head and figured to ask it now before the day before the install.
Like in ur case traxion, do u think the mufflex y pipe would have installed a bit easier ith regulare rubber motor mounts then the ES ones? since the motor is sittin down the y pipe isnt raised up higher in to the tranny xmember.
also how long has it taken someone to install these with no a/c and no emmissions in the car that has the regulare motor mounts? becuz i think u wouldnt be there grindin awhole lot to make clearence for the headers with the stock mounts.
and would it be bad to run the open headers for like a day at the most? becuz i can barrow a lift for 1day on a sunday when the shop isnt open and i know the people there so i can use the lift but with maybe like 2-3 people helpin how long do u think it will take to just install the headers, starter, plugs, wires, lockin header bolts, and to check for clearence issues?
also what should i use on the slipfit primary tube? ive heard use the copper rvt stuff, ive heard u could use antisieze, and i heard of something else but forgot what it was.
okay i think im done thinkin. all this stuff was runnin thru my head and figured to ask it now before the day before the install.
03-14-2003 | 12:41 AM
#39
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Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Decatur, Illinois
I installed them with stock replacement rubber mounts. I didnt have any clearance problems, although it is pretty close to the A Arm mount. I installed them without any emissions other than egr and no AC. It only took us about a half hour but that was because we had the motor out and dropped it in between the headers.
As far as the y pipe I have mentioned a couple times that I believe that the poly mounts were part of the problem, but everyone just blows me off. Everyone that I have heard of that installed them said that it raised their motor at least an inch or more. I think that Phil87Iroc installed his mufflex y pipe without a problem. I think that he ground out some of the tranny crossmember to give him more clearance, but it fit without doing so. He has pics on his site if you search for his name on the boards.
As for the slip tube, I dont have anything on it. If it leaks I will probably go with some of the copper rtv.
As far as open headers, it will be loud, but I dont think it will do any damage(other than your hearing and possibly drawing some unwanted attention). If it were shorties it may be a different story.
Ben
As far as the y pipe I have mentioned a couple times that I believe that the poly mounts were part of the problem, but everyone just blows me off. Everyone that I have heard of that installed them said that it raised their motor at least an inch or more. I think that Phil87Iroc installed his mufflex y pipe without a problem. I think that he ground out some of the tranny crossmember to give him more clearance, but it fit without doing so. He has pics on his site if you search for his name on the boards.
As for the slip tube, I dont have anything on it. If it leaks I will probably go with some of the copper rtv.
As far as open headers, it will be loud, but I dont think it will do any damage(other than your hearing and possibly drawing some unwanted attention). If it were shorties it may be a different story.
Ben
03-14-2003 | 09:14 AM
#40
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,844
Likes: 3
From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
dont u think that it would be easier to install these headers becuz the motor isnt sittin like .75'' to 1.5'' or how ever much the ES mounts bring the motor up.
Like in ur case traxion, do u think the mufflex y pipe would have installed a bit easier ith regulare rubber motor mounts then the ES ones? since the motor is sittin down the y pipe isnt raised up higher in to the tranny xmember.
also how long has it taken someone to install these with no a/c and no emmissions in the car that has the regulare motor mounts? becuz i think u wouldnt be there grindin awhole lot to make clearence for the headers with the stock mounts.
and would it be bad to run the open headers for like a day at the most? becuz i can barrow a lift for 1day on a sunday when the shop isnt open and i know the people there so i can use the lift but with maybe like 2-3 people helpin how long do u think it will take to just install the headers, starter, plugs, wires, lockin header bolts, and to check for clearence issues?.
also what should i use on the slipfit primary tube? ive heard use the copper rvt stuff, ive heard u could use antisieze, and i heard of something else but forgot what it was.
Tim
Last edited by TRAXION; 03-14-2003 at 09:16 AM.
03-14-2003 | 06:06 PM
#41
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From: north plainfield, nj
Car: 05' GTO
Engine: 6.0L
Transmission: A4
sorry about #10 but ive heard differnt things to use like the rvt and antiseize. i was just askin basiclly, maybe i worded it wrong was which one would be better sealin? and do u put a crap load on the pipe or just enuff for a thin coat around the tube?
03-14-2003 | 10:27 PM
#42
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,654
Likes: 2
From: Lower Salford, PA
Car: 1987 Camaro Z-28
Engine: 6.3L Victor EFI
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600
Axle/Gears: Moser 9"/4.11 Trac-Lok
I am using AFR 195 heads & the 2210 Hookers. I just went through removing the ES mounts & putting in brand new NAPA rubber mounts to try and get some more clearance & found the rubber ones let the engine sit .75" lower than the ES mounts did. I am having a real nasty time on the pass side. The #8 tube is jammed into the corner between the LCA bracket & the frame rail. So far I have ground & welded the crap out of the bracket & can't seem to get enough clearance. Hooker blames it on AFR moving the exhaust ports up & back ??
03-15-2003 | 07:33 AM
#43
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,844
Likes: 3
From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Rick,
Is your interference problem the same as is shown in this pic?
http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/ex...e/DCP_0690.JPG
Which version of the ES poly mounts did you use? Did you purchase them a long time ago or were they relatively new?
Tim
Is your interference problem the same as is shown in this pic?
http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/ex...e/DCP_0690.JPG
Which version of the ES poly mounts did you use? Did you purchase them a long time ago or were they relatively new?
Tim
Last edited by TRAXION; 09-09-2003 at 09:36 AM.
03-15-2003 | 06:47 PM
#44
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,906
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From: Decatur, Illinois
Originally posted by TRAXION
Rick,
Is your interference problem the same as is shown in this pic?
http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/headers/DCP_0690.JPG
Which version of the ES poly mounts did you use? Did you purchase them a long time ago or were they relatively new?
Tim
Rick,
Is your interference problem the same as is shown in this pic?
http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/headers/DCP_0690.JPG
Which version of the ES poly mounts did you use? Did you purchase them a long time ago or were they relatively new?
Tim
Ben
03-15-2003 | 08:11 PM
#45
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,654
Likes: 2
From: Lower Salford, PA
Car: 1987 Camaro Z-28
Engine: 6.3L Victor EFI
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600
Axle/Gears: Moser 9"/4.11 Trac-Lok
Originally posted by TRAXION
Rick,
Is your interference problem the same as is shown in this pic?
http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/headers/DCP_0690.JPG
Which version of the ES poly mounts did you use? Did you purchase them a long time ago or were they relatively new?
Tim
Rick,
Is your interference problem the same as is shown in this pic?
http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/headers/DCP_0690.JPG
Which version of the ES poly mounts did you use? Did you purchase them a long time ago or were they relatively new?
Tim
03-15-2003 | 08:32 PM
#46
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,844
Likes: 3
From: Maryland
Car: 2005 Subaru STI
Engine: 153ci of Turbo Power!
Transmission: 6-Speed
Originally posted by Momar
What is the difference out of curiosity?
What is the difference out of curiosity?
I was hoping to collect info to try to find out. I've heard that the first few runs of the ES mounts had fitment problems. I was curious if it might apply in this circumstance. In any case - I'm still 100% confused on this whole topic of ES mounts supposedly being substantially thicker than the NEW stock rubber mounts. Fact is - the ES mounts use the clamshell from the rubber mounts. So, that would prevent there being a difference in thickness. Maybe the difference (if there really is one) is due to deflection of the rubber mounts once the engine sits down on them? That's a tough one to push though because new rubber mounts don't deflect much at all.Tim
03-15-2003 | 08:35 PM
#47
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,654
Likes: 2
From: Lower Salford, PA
Car: 1987 Camaro Z-28
Engine: 6.3L Victor EFI
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600
Axle/Gears: Moser 9"/4.11 Trac-Lok
I believe they compress more when the engine weight is on them. When I compared the two side by side they had the same demensions.
03-16-2003 | 06:11 PM
#48
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,025
Likes: 1
From: Evansville,IN,USA
Car: 89' T/A, 00' Firehawk
Engine: 406 Roller
Transmission: TH700R4 w/2800 stall
Axle/Gears: 3.23 Posi
I have hooker LT on my car and some rigged dual exhaust, i havent even ran the mufflers back yet,. I think this was asked before, but doesnt anyone have a pic of how the mufflex y pipe hooks up to the cat back. I was thinking about putting single exhaust on my car with shorty's and lowering it. But I might not now. This is a good thread.
