Trevor86TA

I am starting to build a 4-bolt 350 for my 86 Trans Am, and I plan on spending about $1500 US... I was wondering what components others have used in this price range and what they are happy/unhappy with....any responses are appriciated

Loki1199

They sell rebuild kits out there that you can use to do just about anything you want to a motor. It comes with pretty much everything you need to do the work, aside from the tools and the block you'll need to starts with. If you have a decent machine shop in your area you can get a machined short block to start with, all while staying in budget.
Good luck

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

What year is the 350, and how much are you planning to use from it?

Most early 350 heads were pretty poor for performance. If you're planning on trying to rebuild and improve them, you might consider a set of World Products S/R Torquer 67cc heads instead. Much better castings, flow better than most any factory head, have good valves & springs, screw-in rocker studs, etc.

If the engine is '86-earlier, then a cam & lifter set is fairly cheap. An upgrade roller for '87-later will be more expensive, but worth it.

You didn't say what induction you plan on using, I'll assume stock carb. You should be okay with simple tuning if that's the case.

Other than that, regular rebuild kits, whether rings & bearings or with pistons, are very reasonable from places like Summit, Jegs, PAW, Northern, or Competition Products. Hypereutectic pistons are a good upgrade over cast for very little increase in cost. Your machine shop costs will depend upon how far you go and how reasonable the shop is.

But, if you don't do anything to the exhaust (again assuming you have a carb'd car), then you will be holding your new engine back. That will be more than your budget can handle, if you need to rebuild the engine and upgrade the exhaust for that $1500.

MotorCityMuscle

i think the Goodwrench crate 350 is $1200. Im not sure if ts 4 bolt mains, but it is rated at 250 hp. It s a long block, which means that you'll need to add an intake, carb, distributor, balancer, oil pan, and valve covers. you can use your original pieces off the LG4 for these. That still leaves you some cash for a set of headers. Check ebay for cheap used sets. And BTW, 250 hp is a big uprade from your LG4. Don't get into the mindset that you absolutely have to have 300+ hp to have fun with the car. plus, I think your better off buying a new motor thab trying to build one for cheap and have it hold together for who knows how long. Hope this helps.

85transamtpi

I agree with five7kid...somewhat

You should build your own engine. When you are on a budget this is the only way to go. All you need is a good block to start with. Now about the heads...I would NOT go with world torquer s/r's because they cost more than better alternatives. I would use aluminum L98 heads because they are cheaper/flow as good or better. I have seen sets for sale for around 400 bucks.

I would research everything you are planning on bolting up to the block. If you do that it is possible to build one hell of a motor for $1500.

I'd stay away from the GM crate motor, because Ive seen people on this website running mid 15's after the swap. As soon as any major engine parts are replaced, you void your warranty. stupid if you ask me.

How much power do you want to make?

-peace

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

S/R torquers are available from Competition Products unassembled for $549, $589 assembled (add about $50 more for shipping). What "better alternatives" cost less than that?

Add a couple hundred to the $400 used aluminum L98 heads will cost, to freshen them up. To say nothing about the cross-over passages you don't get with them. And the higher compression you need to make up for the heat loss through the aluminum.

Why go with the crate motor if you already have a buildable 350?

Pony Killer

IF i were in your postion this is what i'd do.

Drop the block off at the machine shop, have them tank it, install the cam bearings& freeze plugs. have them tell you what the bore sizes are.

then call up scummit, and get the propper rebuild kit.. around 300 bucks.

Pick up a set of vortec heads, the proper intake.

Pick up a comp XE 268 cam, and the springs, retainers, and pushrods and lifters.

PIck up a carb if you don't have one, a HEI distributor, and a kit to rebuild them. pref a 750 vac sec if it's for the street, 4150 style.

that's about 1300-1400 if you do the assembly ourself.
at that point it's a matter of what you have around and what you need to get.
get the compression to 10.0:1 and you'll be a very happy camper

Be prepared to detsroy the trans and the rear if they are stock

GreenProStreet

Building an engine is a completely car based thing, so it needs to be built with the car in mind, like-

1) Street, Strip or both?
2) Transmission. When your car is accelerating will it be in a broad range (TH-700) or a small chunk (T-5) of RPM?
3) Weight. Thirdgens are light, but not very light so 350-400 lb-ft is a must.

Building the torque curve is the basis for these questions. Street? Good, you will have to make power from idle to 5000 rpm. The tranny is trickier. The moral of the story is: be careful. If you buy that 1 foot tall, race manifold and use it on the street, you will hate your car. Keep to the manufacturer's recomendations in turms of their products power band.

PS- "A good cam with bad heads makes a dog engine, but a good head with a bad cam still is a good engine," -slice of life from John Ligenfelter.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

You gotta be kidding. What a waste.

Trevor86TA

ok.......well, i am using late 60's 350 w/ 4-bolt main...currently, i have stock 3.23 gears and a new 700r4...I am planning on buying a rebuild kit from summit, jegs, etc....I am not sure about induction...i don't know if the carb on my lg4 will be sufficient, or if i should invest in an aftermarket carb...and if so, which one..
in didn't say anything about what i expected as far as hp goes, but i was thinking that getting into the low 14's might seem reasonable....as far as the characterstics, I want the car to dependable as a daily driver and want to be able to get somewhat reasonable mileage (18-20)...any further comments are welcome

Pony Killer

How it would be a waste... i'm unclear on. heads, and intake about 550-600 bucks.

Cam lifters, springs, retainers and pushrods about 250, for the vavle train minus the rocker arms... that's not bad at all

nearly 400hp for under1500bucks doesn't seem like a waste to me.. sounds like a solid street motor.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Because it'll cost you more than that.

Ah, rocker arms. Vortecs require self-aligning. And, special springs. You're really short on your cost estimate.

I agree, I simply maintain you aren't going to rebuild a 350 shortblock and put Vortec heads on it for that money. Even if you did, the Vortecs are still inferior to the Worlds. Vortecs have 1.94/1.60 valves and press-in rocker studs, are factory-quality casting TRUCK heads, require a special intake (limited choices, one of which is NOT the LG4 manifold) and springs, don't have the exhaust cross-over passage, etc., etc., etc. The Worlds have 2.02/1.60 valves, screw-in rocker studs, high-quality castings, use "standard" SBC intakes including the LG4 he already has, use "standard" SBC rocker arms - why bother with Vortecs?

Trevor, the best bet for achieving your goals is to maintain the CC q-jet setup - it is more than adequate for a 350 (see mag articles by Steve Green for a 383 CC qet build). Any aftermarket carb you pick will end up costing you more money, will get worse gas mileage, and will require you to rig something to lock up the TCC. Stick with the CC q-jet. You are, however, going to have to keep the cam a little towards the mild side to achieve your MPG goals.

Pony Killer

550-600 is what mine cost, and more than what my buddies cost.
Getting a set of heads out of a core yard rarely costs more than 300 bucks., new valveguides pressed in is a hundred, the intake, 175, that's that.

The Self aligning rocker arms generally dont' cost much, if anything more than non self aligning ones, and if you run good roller fulcrum, roller tip ones the cost is the sam for either.
Spring for mine were 45 bucks.

Not at all short on the estimate, a good friend of mine jsut put one together for less than 1500 bucks. the wonders of Ebay are astonding.

as far as them not having an intake If i remember GM sells one for the Qjet but i'm not certain.

There are no ports for the EGR and exhaust crossover because the heads don't have them.


As far as MPG goes you can achiev 17-18 round town and better on the highway with a holley and a cam that big if you tune the primary's on the lean side, and use a vac sec holley, and vacuum advancehooked up to manifold vacuum.

hooking up a TC lockup switch is not a big deal, your only going to lock it up on the highway.

even with the larger valves i don't see the world product SR torquers outperforming a stock set of vortecs

AJ_92RS

If you do everything right, you can get away with a kit from Powerhouse.

They have this kit........

MASTER ENGINE KITS (for any engine) New Oil Pump • Rod Bearings • Main Bearings • Pistons • Rings • Cam Bearings • Cam (ex) • Lifters • 3 piece Timing Set • Brass Plug Kit • Gasket Set • (most to ‘84 carb) Buick 231 $ 199 Chev 173 $219 Chevy 305 $179 Chevy 350 $ 153 Chevy 454 $309 Dodge 318 $ 254 Dodge 360 $ 259 Ford 289/302 (to 81) $179 Ford 351w $229 Ford 460 $309 Olds 350 $325

Chevy 350 $153 !!!!!!!!! That is unreal. I mean, yea it's with cast pistons, stock rings, bearings, etc., but it's only $153!!!!!

AJ

AJ_92RS

Oh yea...... they have this also.

World Cylinder Heads

S/R TORQUER/SPORTSMAN II C.I.
50 State Emission Legal
S/R Torquer: Adds up to 30 H.P. over stock; 67cc; 170cc intake runner $234.95 each (bare)
SEE HEAD PACKAGE BELOW
Cylinder Head Package • 8-2.02 +8-1.60 swilr polished • stainless chrome stem •
undercut hard water tip valves • super springs to
.550 lift cam stock dia • 100lbs seat •
1 set high temp seals • 1 set hardened keepers •
1 set chrome moly retainers • 1 set screw in studs
1 set guide plates all for only $199.95

Add these two items and you're at $434.90. That's a little cheaper than the Vortec heads. And what a better time to port them? Even if you only pocket port them yourself (which a newbie should only do) take them to the machine shop and have them clean 'em up, and BAAM!!!!!!, you got a set of some nice A$$ heads!!!!!

Then add the $153 for the engine kit........ now you've spent $587.90.

That leaves you with ~$900 to do whatever else you need to do such as machining the block, exhaust, or whatever.

See, you can get by very cheap if you know how to shop.

AJ

tzweelz

ahh id check my math there.
ur post said 234.95 EACH HEAD
so to say $434 w/ the upgrade package would be incorrect. unless that was a typo, and that is per pair. but ive never heard of aftermarket heads go for $235, $470 however sounds better for a pair of cheap aftermarket heads, then 670 w/ the upgrade.
i know we all get excited when we find cheap ways to make power, but we sometimes jump the gun. ive been guilty of this many times.

85transamtpi

The only reason I suggested aluminum L98 heads is because they are cheap, aluminum, and I have with my own eyes seen them top off a 10 second 355 powered thirdgen. Im sure the Worlds are great heads, I just dont know anyone running them. I have seen some success with vortec heads, but the intakes do cost a lot. Go with what you have seen works...not what people tell you works. So if you know anyone with a screamin torquer s/r headed beast...buy the worlds. I just havent seen that beast yet myself

-peace

johndo1707

check out power house. excellent deals!!!
www.enginekits.com

johndo1707

so, these World torquer heads fit with tpi? they bolt/match right up to the stock tpi intake manifold??? they sound like a good deal and you don't need a special intake manifold for them.

AJ_92RS

I'm sorry, I did overlook that it is the price per head. That puts the price up to $669.85. That is a little more than the Vortec heads.

However, the World heads do still retain the EGR crossover passages. That in itself is something that you are gonna have to have if you want to keep the car emissions compliant.

Sorry again for that, but IMHO, they're still a great deal.

AJ

johndo1707

so those world heads are totally compatible with tpi????????????????????????????

85transamtpi

Ok heres the deal

If you car has to pass the sniffer you will need to run an external egr if you use the Vette aluminum heads. You will not have to do this to the worlds.

YES, the worlds will bolt right up, because they are STOCK REPLACEMENT heads (s/r). They do not have as much potential for performance and will cost you just as much as aluminum L98's with a 3 angle job. But they will bolt right up, which is why any at all are sold. In my opinion, if you are considering these heads you should just have your stock heads reworked for larger valves and ported out a little. The results will be the same, and cost you much less.

-peace

johndo1707

i don't have the corvette aluminum heads. i think i'm going to go with the worlds, sound like a good deal. thanks

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Who said anything about S/R's?

"S/R Torquer" is what you want. There, you maintain the cross-over passage (may have to drill it open, but no biggie), intake will be a "normal" type, they have bigger valves than Vortecs; will flow as well as Vortecs out of the box, and with minor bowl clean-up and gasket matching, will out-flow those Vortecs. Plus, they're higher quality castings than what you get with Vortecs.

Do we need to repeat the stuff about rocker stud type?

About $600 per pair, shipped, unassembled with all valves/springs/studs/seals included, from Competition Products. Less than aluminum L98 heads (new, at least).

There really is no comparison when all factors are considered.

johndo1707

yeah, they seem like the best deal for the money. i think i'm set on getting those, just going to shop around for some prices, probably not too much differences, but i know a guy who can get them at dealer cost, so hopefully that is lower than from a mail order.

Trevor86TA

was just wondering what other alternatives there are to the torq. s/r's...is it realistic to spend almost half of my budget on heads?

Pony Killer

if your on a tight budget liek that, it's certainly possible to spend half on the heads if not more... as far as power goes. that's the biggest part of making power.. the heads.

what ever heads you use. are going to take a chunk of the budget. Alreayd know where i stand.

85transamtpi

five7,
I understand the difference, and the 30hp claim over stock. They arent bad, but I was quoting the "s/r" part to describe thier fitment.

And to answer ?'s about cheaper alternatives...

a grinder + your heads + some spare time = a good improvement.

-peace

zerogauge

called them today and got a price of 659.95 assembled for the S/R Torquers. Plus $40 or so shipping. Thats a little under $700. I decided to just save the money for my big block, but that is a fairly good deal considering jegs and summit want like 740 plus shipping.

www.competitionproducts.com

cheapest place I have found for them and they seem to be a very good head for the money. as for the vortec's they are a STOCK truck casting. nothing more. For the 480 you pay for them add new springs(+50) a special intake(+180) and then the shipping on them and you are over $700 and you still have 1.94/1.50 valves and pressed in rockerstuds. anyone can plainly see that the S/R Torquers are a better buy and CHEAPER in the long run.

They sell them for $240 for a reason.

SaltyNuts

Hey, has anyone ever used www.enginekits.com? I want not some SR Torquers, but the Sportsman II's. Hardly any more $$$ for a better head, I believe.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Shop around. Obviously, Comp Products raised their prices since I got mine last spring. If you get unassembled kits, be careful what valves and springs they are including (may not be what World advertises for their complete heads).

The heads themselves should be the same regardless of the supplier. So, get prices quotes from various sources, go with the one that gives you the best deal (don't forget to ask about shipping).

The Sportsmans are better heads for a 350, no doubt. You may need to drill out the crossover passage (no big deal), and they may not be available in the '87-later intake manifold bolt pattern (also not a big deal).

AJ_92RS

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the World Sportsman II heads have 200cc intake runners, right?

Actually, I just checked, and here's the link. It's a .pdf file so get your Acrobat Reader ready!!!

World SBC Products

That's HUGE!!!!!

Way too big for anything that is gonna run below the 450HP mark. You need SOME velocity in the intake runners to make the car somewhat streetable!! Otherwise your mid-rpm torque is gonna suffer very bad.

As you'll see, their recommended HP range is 400-650. If you're looking to build an engine for ~$1500, then you don't need to be trying to build it up to 400+ HP. Unless you want it to last the equivalent of 4 passes at the dragstrip.

You shouldn't spend the extra money on them, unless you plan to due some major mods to the low end in the near future. And run a massive cam!!

It's nice to think that you should have the best stuff so that you can build a 600HP engine, but think realistically. Anything over 400HP becomes a huge dent in the old wallet. That's if you want it to last anyway.

AJ

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

We've switched gears on you.

Trevor said he's spending $1500.

Salty's looking at the Sportsmans.

These long ones can get away from the original topic, can't they?

AJ_92RS

OK..... So take out this part of my post, and I'm still right!!!!!

AJ

SaltyNuts

Yea, I apoligize for switching gears. Just wanted to know if anyone had ever used www.enginekits.com, as there prices seem almost *too* good.

AJ, while I switched gears, wouldn't the Sportsman II's provide at least decent mid-range torque in a bigger smallblock, like a 383, 400, or 427 (aftermarket block)? I understand 200 is pretty big, but they get alot bigger (for example, AFR has 220s), and my understanding is that as you increase cubic inches, you can increase port size without giving up as much low-end torque.


Thanks alot and sorry again for screwing with the thread.

BigL350

Vortec heads are only really worth it if you get them used. Check around Chevy and GMC dealerships for blown vortec motors that they had to warranty. I found my vortecs on a blown 5.7 sitting next to the scrap pile at a chevy dealer I do some work at. Once in a while you see them on Ebay for a decent price. Same goes for the intake manifold. You can find the Performer Vortec, and the GM equivilent on Ebay pretty often. The self-aligning rockers are no big deal either. If you can't get them with the heads, there are tons of people just on this board who have put in roller rockers and have an extra set of stock rocker arms. The springs really are junk. Get a set of entry level aftermarket springs with the stock diameter. If you keep the cam under.460"lift (some people say .480", but some very knowledgeable people have said less), you don't have to machine the valve guides, and won't need screw in studs. If you run a big cam (I learned the hard way with my ZZ3 cam), the retainers hit the valve guide and tear everything to ****. To run a cam that big, like the ones every magazine is using in their Vortec build ups, you have to machine the valve guide, and the spring pocket, use screw in studs, and really good valvesprings. To sum it all up, find a set of used vortecs for under $200, a set of springs under $50, and send the heads out for a valve job($120 at a local shop near me). All the other little odds and ends should be no problem.

Trevor86TA

Just wondering..........What other options are there for heads in the $500 and below range? Are there any worth considering?

zerogauge

vortec's are the only heads i know of for under $500, but they really are'nt because of the extra stuff you need, not want but need. spend 480 on the heads and then 200 on an intake and rocker arms.

you can find good deals all the time but I personally like to have alot of my stuff new, so I have a warranty and I know what I'm getting instead of a set of heads that were ran on an overheating motor or an intake thats been sitting for 3 years with rust and corrosion hiding in its ports.....ok im done.