Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
#1
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From: Roanoke, Virginia
Car: 1992 Camaro RS 25th Anniversary
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Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
Let me preface my question with some data.
My '82 Z28 has a carbed 350 in it. Holley 600 double pumper, Holley Street Dominator aluminum high rise intake. 700R4 with a B&M Megashifter ratchet shifting setup. Eaton locking rear end w/ 3.42 gears. Sub-frame connectors. Light weight aluminum drive shaft. I'm looking to get into friendly "for fun" drag racing, there is a 1/8th mile track near me (sadly not a 1/4 mile). I'm thinking take the 3.42 rear end out and replace it with a locking 4.10 rear?
The engine currently in my Camaro:
Engine ID Number: V1214TJZ (Rated 155HP, isn't that pathetic?)
Casting number: 3970010
Engine was rebuilt/freshened up about 10 years ago, prolly has around 15k miles on it.
The casting number of "3970010" is super common and could be one of many 350's. The Engine ID number of "V1214TJZ" is much more specific, telling me the engine was built in Flint Michigan on December 14th of 1973 4BBL Carb Rated at 155HP, and came out of a C10 pickup. I haven't taken the pan off to see if its a 4 bolt or 2 bolt main.
I also have a 1986 GMC Sierra that the frame is rotting out of. It has a GM Goodwrench crate 350 in it that I am taking out.
This engine was put in years ago but does not burn anything or leak, and it feels very gutsy and fresh. Maybe 10k - 20k miles on it?
Engine ID Number: 1M09249VP(?) (I'll put a picture below, it's hard to see the whole number in the picture though).
Casting Number: 10066036
The Engine ID number is strange and I can't seem to find much info on it, maybe you guys can help? "9VP" is not used by Chevy in any of their Engine ID codes, so it's definitely a crate motor. The Casting Number however is much more specific, and most likely indicates a "Hecho en Mexico" crate engine. I've done some Google searches and found conflicting data on this engine. It appears to be at least 200 HP, but most sources say it's 250HP. Does anyone else have some more specific data on this 10066036 engine? It appears to have a stock intake and carb, or at least nothing special/aftermarket.
So here's my question: With the specs I've provided about my Camaro, and the info ya'll can get from the Engine ID and Casting numbers, which engine should I build? Current 155HP is unimpressive to say the least. I've heard my 155HP '73 engine is a "hi-nickel" block or something, and would be strong and thus a good engine to build. Would building that make more sense then building the already 250HP mexican crate engine?
Should I putt around with the 155HP engine it has while I build the crate 250HP engine, then swap them and sell the old engine? Or would it be better to park the Camaro, pull the 155HP motor out, sell the crate 250HP, and use the money from that to build the old 155HP while the Camaro sits?
My end goal is around 350 - 425HP. I'd really like to see 400HP on the dyno.
Would the 155HP '73 possibly "hi-nickel" possibly 4 bolt main engine be better to build? Or would the already 250HP mexican crate engine be better? Both blocks are free of flaws, cracks, etc. The cylinder walls are good in both, neither engine needs to be bored out.
Which one should I sell to fund the building of the other? Should I keep/use my intake and carb or sell those to buy different ones?
So many questions, hopefully you all can help me!
Thank you SO MUCH guys, I can't wait to post a video when I get this baby on the track!
Here's a picture of the engine ID numbers on the crate motor:
My '82 Z28 has a carbed 350 in it. Holley 600 double pumper, Holley Street Dominator aluminum high rise intake. 700R4 with a B&M Megashifter ratchet shifting setup. Eaton locking rear end w/ 3.42 gears. Sub-frame connectors. Light weight aluminum drive shaft. I'm looking to get into friendly "for fun" drag racing, there is a 1/8th mile track near me (sadly not a 1/4 mile). I'm thinking take the 3.42 rear end out and replace it with a locking 4.10 rear?
The engine currently in my Camaro:
Engine ID Number: V1214TJZ (Rated 155HP, isn't that pathetic?)
Casting number: 3970010
Engine was rebuilt/freshened up about 10 years ago, prolly has around 15k miles on it.
The casting number of "3970010" is super common and could be one of many 350's. The Engine ID number of "V1214TJZ" is much more specific, telling me the engine was built in Flint Michigan on December 14th of 1973 4BBL Carb Rated at 155HP, and came out of a C10 pickup. I haven't taken the pan off to see if its a 4 bolt or 2 bolt main.
I also have a 1986 GMC Sierra that the frame is rotting out of. It has a GM Goodwrench crate 350 in it that I am taking out.
This engine was put in years ago but does not burn anything or leak, and it feels very gutsy and fresh. Maybe 10k - 20k miles on it?
Engine ID Number: 1M09249VP(?) (I'll put a picture below, it's hard to see the whole number in the picture though).
Casting Number: 10066036
The Engine ID number is strange and I can't seem to find much info on it, maybe you guys can help? "9VP" is not used by Chevy in any of their Engine ID codes, so it's definitely a crate motor. The Casting Number however is much more specific, and most likely indicates a "Hecho en Mexico" crate engine. I've done some Google searches and found conflicting data on this engine. It appears to be at least 200 HP, but most sources say it's 250HP. Does anyone else have some more specific data on this 10066036 engine? It appears to have a stock intake and carb, or at least nothing special/aftermarket.
So here's my question: With the specs I've provided about my Camaro, and the info ya'll can get from the Engine ID and Casting numbers, which engine should I build? Current 155HP is unimpressive to say the least. I've heard my 155HP '73 engine is a "hi-nickel" block or something, and would be strong and thus a good engine to build. Would building that make more sense then building the already 250HP mexican crate engine?
Should I putt around with the 155HP engine it has while I build the crate 250HP engine, then swap them and sell the old engine? Or would it be better to park the Camaro, pull the 155HP motor out, sell the crate 250HP, and use the money from that to build the old 155HP while the Camaro sits?
My end goal is around 350 - 425HP. I'd really like to see 400HP on the dyno.
Would the 155HP '73 possibly "hi-nickel" possibly 4 bolt main engine be better to build? Or would the already 250HP mexican crate engine be better? Both blocks are free of flaws, cracks, etc. The cylinder walls are good in both, neither engine needs to be bored out.
Which one should I sell to fund the building of the other? Should I keep/use my intake and carb or sell those to buy different ones?
So many questions, hopefully you all can help me!
Thank you SO MUCH guys, I can't wait to post a video when I get this baby on the track!
Here's a picture of the engine ID numbers on the crate motor:
Last edited by Shaz; 06-27-2012 at 10:23 PM.
#2
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From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
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Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
Flip a coin. Since your goal is 350-425 hp, it doesn't matter what engine you use or what the factory HP rating is. You're going to change just about everything to reach your goal.
Crate engine stampings mean very little. Since they are not production engines, they only mean that they've been rebuilt from a core. There's nothing wrong with the goodwrench engine. It probably has nice heavy 993 castings. Highly unlikely they'll have any cracks. The old 1973 engine, who knows.
Don't get hung up on the factory HP ratings. Compression ratio, head castings, cam grind, carb part number can all change the ratings around. Without putting it on a dyno to see the exact numbers, the factory numbers are only what it was rated at when it left the factory.
Crate engine stampings mean very little. Since they are not production engines, they only mean that they've been rebuilt from a core. There's nothing wrong with the goodwrench engine. It probably has nice heavy 993 castings. Highly unlikely they'll have any cracks. The old 1973 engine, who knows.
Don't get hung up on the factory HP ratings. Compression ratio, head castings, cam grind, carb part number can all change the ratings around. Without putting it on a dyno to see the exact numbers, the factory numbers are only what it was rated at when it left the factory.
#3
Joined: Sep 2005
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Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
Those stamping codes are completely irrelevant and meaningless once ANY internal part of the engine has been changed. You can take a 350 out of a 74 Impala 2-bbl and build it into a 900-HP racer, using EXACTLY the same parts, EXACTLY the same money, and EXACTLY the same effort as taking a "375 HP" "LT-1" and making the same power with it. The simple reason is, POWER DOES NOT LIVE IN THE BLOCK; it lives in all those other pieces that get changed. Pistons, heads, cam, and so on. If the motor has BEEN TOUCHED AT ALL, the stamping code is no longer of any further value. Get that left-turn down a dead-end alley out of your mind and move on to IDENTIFYING THE PARTS if you really want to know what it NOW is. Although, it sounds like none of that really matters, because all you've got is some "rebuilder" crap in the one motor, and the lowest of the low of GM stuff - MAYBE - in the other. It might be just as much a bunch of crap as the first one.
The "Hecho en Mexico" "Goodwrench motors were usually "rated" at 260 HP. However, they are absolutely identical in every way, PART # FOR PART #, to the 160 HP wonders of the 70s. You got your 18cc dish pistons, your crap smogger heads such as 882 624 or 993, your 929 cam; all the ingredients of a MIGHTY .... phone company van motor. However the newer blocks at least don't usually have near as many QC problems, on average, as the 70s ones did; no guarantee in any individual case of course, just, your odds are better.
There are no "high nickel" blocks. That's a myth. People who worked in the casting foundry have debunked it over and over again. Back when algore invented the interwebz, I used to really hope that REAL information would displace all the myths and legends and lore of Friday night McDonalds parking lot monkey-spank, like that one; but is hasn't happened. It's just provided a new way for the same stupid crap to get spread around to a whole new generation.
Either of the BLOCKS you have has teh identical same potential for HP. Instead of worrying about a bunch of stamping codes, look at WHAT MATTERS; which is, their condition (how far they've already been bored), and their factory machining defects. Use whichever one will clean up at .030" over with the least work. Consider also, the location of the dipstick, and whether the oil pan you want to use (not all pans will fit in one of these cars) will fit the block you want to use.
Throw all the heads, cams, pistons, soft parts like rings & bearings, intakes, exhaust manifolds, and all that, in the trash. You'll be able to use, AT MOST, the block, crank, rods, and external tin, if your goal is SERIOUSLY 400 HP; nothing else.
The "Hecho en Mexico" "Goodwrench motors were usually "rated" at 260 HP. However, they are absolutely identical in every way, PART # FOR PART #, to the 160 HP wonders of the 70s. You got your 18cc dish pistons, your crap smogger heads such as 882 624 or 993, your 929 cam; all the ingredients of a MIGHTY .... phone company van motor. However the newer blocks at least don't usually have near as many QC problems, on average, as the 70s ones did; no guarantee in any individual case of course, just, your odds are better.
There are no "high nickel" blocks. That's a myth. People who worked in the casting foundry have debunked it over and over again. Back when algore invented the interwebz, I used to really hope that REAL information would displace all the myths and legends and lore of Friday night McDonalds parking lot monkey-spank, like that one; but is hasn't happened. It's just provided a new way for the same stupid crap to get spread around to a whole new generation.
Either of the BLOCKS you have has teh identical same potential for HP. Instead of worrying about a bunch of stamping codes, look at WHAT MATTERS; which is, their condition (how far they've already been bored), and their factory machining defects. Use whichever one will clean up at .030" over with the least work. Consider also, the location of the dipstick, and whether the oil pan you want to use (not all pans will fit in one of these cars) will fit the block you want to use.
Throw all the heads, cams, pistons, soft parts like rings & bearings, intakes, exhaust manifolds, and all that, in the trash. You'll be able to use, AT MOST, the block, crank, rods, and external tin, if your goal is SERIOUSLY 400 HP; nothing else.
#5
Joined: Sep 2005
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Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
I was a engine tester at the Tonn,NY
According to the people who WORKED AT WHICHEVER PLANT IT WAS FOR THE COUPLE OF MONTHS THAT THE FAILED EXPERIMENT LASTED (not sure myself whether the individual in question was at Tonawanda or Flint), they made those end plates for the sand mold and started trying to cast blocks from different metallurgy. Didn't take long before they discovered that it cost MORE to make different blocks from different materials and try to keep up with keeping em separated, than to make em all the same and not have to worry about it. So those end plates with the "010 020" on them got used for ALL blocks for many years thereafter, just like the ones without; but the blocks themselves were all the same metallurgy.
This would have been in about 1970.
What was your experience with this situation? When was it? Always good to have "the inside track" when we can get it.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 06-28-2012 at 07:26 AM.
#6
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
Mid 60's to early 80's.Was assigned to the engineering dept doing Rockwell testing as part of the engine test cycle on blocks.
Now I will not ruin this thread with...................
Sorry,but you just met someone from the inside who actually worked there,was involved,and knows.
Now I will not ruin this thread with...................
Sorry,but you just met someone from the inside who actually worked there,was involved,and knows.
#7
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,498
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From: Macon, GA
Car: 1992 Camaro RS
Engine: Vortec headed 355, xe262
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt 3.70
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
Mid 60's to early 80's.Was assigned to the engineering dept doing Rockwell testing as part of the engine test cycle on blocks.
Now I will not ruin this thread with...................
Sorry,but you just met someone from the inside who actually worked there,was involved,and knows.
Now I will not ruin this thread with...................
Sorry,but you just met someone from the inside who actually worked there,was involved,and knows.
Just saying "i was there, I know, they exist" is about as helpful as me chiming in and saying I just met santa claus and he wears Nikes.
Regardless, let us continue in this inane thread of logic. These high nickel blocks... they always need to be bored .030 over to clean them up in the vast majority of cases. Sometimes more. Isnt the big advantage of "nickel" blocks that the metal is harder and less vulnerable to friction wear?
Modern blocks, without their high nickel mythology, they always seem to be good with a .010 or .020 bore. My modern 1 pc RMS block needed a .030 overbore only because one cylinder had rust in it. Otherwise it was good to go for a .010 overbore.
So if the extra "hardness" of this nickel that's allegedly in these blocks has no appreciable effect on wear, then what does it even matter? My block before this one was an "010 high nickel" block, just because it's what I could find, and it ended up having to be bored .060 over from .030 over. Of course, it ended up developing a crack in the cylinder bore the first time any stress was put on it, and I ended up junking that piece of crap old 70s block with no remorse.
So at the end of the day, proper fuel metering by modern fuel injection has a much more significant effect on wear than any kind of "nickel" that's added to the block during casting.
Also:
http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10896
Sure he didn't scan and link his ID and resume, but what he says rings of truth because it's logical and undramatic.
Each time we make a batch of iron, a 10 ton crane will move across the metal staging area and pick up certain metals and dump them into the cupola. Each batch is done this way, and the irom metalurgy between each batch can differ slightly. Certain iron batches are made for certain parts and heated to certain degrees. The only true way to tell the nickel content is by part number. But that alone is only a guideline, and cannot be relied on 100%. Most high nickel blocks will also have a brighter sheen after a chemical cleaning. It would be the same sheen if a standard block was shotblasted 2-3 times.
Iron properties will differ from each run. Some will be harder due to longer mold line time, and some are slightly harder due to a multi travel through the shot peening booth.
But don't be fooled that harder iron is better. GreyIron (blocks, heads) under a microscope look like a slivered chip, whereas nodular iron (cranks, carriers) look like perfectly round *****. Grey iron that is hard will easily crack. Grey iron that is soft will easily wear. Nickel blocks are nice to have, but they will also be subject to mold line time. In the end, it'just a brag to a select few if you have a nickel block.
...
You need to understand how sand cores are created & assembled to have an idea of what I am talking about. The timing cover front slab core is a different sand core than the side slab cores or the rear slab core.
Each sand core has an identification number, so we can trace it back to the core number if there is a problem with the finished product. Because once the block has been poured, and mold line time has expired, the entire block mold goes through a shakeout process where the sand mold is destroyed and the iron block is extracted. Once this happens, all of the sand cores have been destroyed, and the numbers on each facet of the block is all we have left to trace identification.
Other identification areas are just inside the waterpump holes. You will see water jacket numbers there. You will also see numbers on the underside of the block, next to the first cam journal. This is the barrel core number. The large single digit number near the part number is the drag core pttern number. Alongside that, you might see CFD or GM-D, which means "central foundry Defiance, or GM-Defiance. SMCO means Saginaw metal casting operations.
Every facet of a block or head will have identification marks to tell me what particular core was used to create that particular part.
And as in your case, some cores are universal. Even all the big blocks & small blocks we make today use similar iron recipes. Some may have hotter iron batches such as the 3.8 cylinder head, but the ingredients are the same.... unless it's a bowtie run.
Hope this helps.
....
When we pour iron, the only reference to what we are making is the last 3 digits of the part number. "We're making 781's today!" We never refer to any other identification such as core numbers. The iron blend is purely based on the casting part number.
Think about going out to buy a GM block. Try and ask the parts guy that you want a part number "xxx", BUT with a 010 side core or a 020 front core. He will look at you strangely, and then laugh at you, because the differences are indexed by part numbers only, not by core numbers. His parts book is indexed by part numbers only as well. GM indexes all the differences with their parts by different part numbers.
Once all the cores are screwed together to make a core package, the package assemblies can sit on shelves for days before they are placed in the mold for an iron pour. And... once all the core pieces are screwed together to make a core package, there is no possible way for us to see inside to verify what core numbers were used to make the core package.... Because of this, we cannot follow the myth that 010 ID's mean "high nickel", because it's impossible to view the 010 ID once the package is screwed together & shelved. The only ID we have is the part number.
Iron properties will differ from each run. Some will be harder due to longer mold line time, and some are slightly harder due to a multi travel through the shot peening booth.
But don't be fooled that harder iron is better. GreyIron (blocks, heads) under a microscope look like a slivered chip, whereas nodular iron (cranks, carriers) look like perfectly round *****. Grey iron that is hard will easily crack. Grey iron that is soft will easily wear. Nickel blocks are nice to have, but they will also be subject to mold line time. In the end, it'just a brag to a select few if you have a nickel block.
...
You need to understand how sand cores are created & assembled to have an idea of what I am talking about. The timing cover front slab core is a different sand core than the side slab cores or the rear slab core.
Each sand core has an identification number, so we can trace it back to the core number if there is a problem with the finished product. Because once the block has been poured, and mold line time has expired, the entire block mold goes through a shakeout process where the sand mold is destroyed and the iron block is extracted. Once this happens, all of the sand cores have been destroyed, and the numbers on each facet of the block is all we have left to trace identification.
Other identification areas are just inside the waterpump holes. You will see water jacket numbers there. You will also see numbers on the underside of the block, next to the first cam journal. This is the barrel core number. The large single digit number near the part number is the drag core pttern number. Alongside that, you might see CFD or GM-D, which means "central foundry Defiance, or GM-Defiance. SMCO means Saginaw metal casting operations.
Every facet of a block or head will have identification marks to tell me what particular core was used to create that particular part.
And as in your case, some cores are universal. Even all the big blocks & small blocks we make today use similar iron recipes. Some may have hotter iron batches such as the 3.8 cylinder head, but the ingredients are the same.... unless it's a bowtie run.
Hope this helps.
....
When we pour iron, the only reference to what we are making is the last 3 digits of the part number. "We're making 781's today!" We never refer to any other identification such as core numbers. The iron blend is purely based on the casting part number.
Think about going out to buy a GM block. Try and ask the parts guy that you want a part number "xxx", BUT with a 010 side core or a 020 front core. He will look at you strangely, and then laugh at you, because the differences are indexed by part numbers only, not by core numbers. His parts book is indexed by part numbers only as well. GM indexes all the differences with their parts by different part numbers.
Once all the cores are screwed together to make a core package, the package assemblies can sit on shelves for days before they are placed in the mold for an iron pour. And... once all the core pieces are screwed together to make a core package, there is no possible way for us to see inside to verify what core numbers were used to make the core package.... Because of this, we cannot follow the myth that 010 ID's mean "high nickel", because it's impossible to view the 010 ID once the package is screwed together & shelved. The only ID we have is the part number.
What you wrote was how it was supposed to be. But once it was put through the system, engineering realized that their intent could not be efficiently tracked. So the plan was abandoned, but it would have been too costly to rework all the patterns in the core machines, so those were left alone.
When engineering originally developed the plan, they needed a way to identify the metallurgy after the block was poured, thus the fabled "stamp" But engineering soon realized that the same block part number could posess one of 3 different mettalurgical blends. Because of this, it was near impossible to trace or efficiently logistically locate castings from pourtime to end customer use, as well as service parts orders.
So it was abandoned, because with the original idea, you wouldn't be able to call any GM parts office & locate a "nickel 010 block", because there was not a specific part number associated with it. Parts are organized by part numbers, not core stamps.
Now, to straighten this out, they did change the casting part number to correspond with the metallurgical content. This is true for only older blocks (pre 71) Blocks after that just used the same sand cores as the older ones until pattern changes were made, which will give false hope to many.
Hinging on that, many cores were interchangeable. Today, error proofing measures have been installed, and it is impossible to assemble mismatched pieces without destroying a section of the core.
Processes were brutal years ago, and it was very common to grab the pallet of cores with the 010,020 stamps to keep the mold line running (even though the current run was not supposed to have the 010,020 stamps. The wost thing we could do, was to stop a mold line. If we did, the iron would cool, and we could freeze up the system with solidified iron. Always keep the mold line running! So, you cannot base your "nickel" block, solely on the 010 stamp on the timing face. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and cores have been switched in the past.
Today, most owners do not understand that the 010 on the side of the block has nothing to do what the metallurgical content is, or if it's a 4 bolt main.
Like I mentioned before, we have poured iron to what the part number is, not what the core stamps say. If I had 2 assembled core packages next to each other, you would not be able to tell if one had 010 on it, unless you destroyed & dissected it or poured iron into it & removed the iron to see. The one thing that is consistently 100% validated is the part number, which is part of the drag mold and is the seat for the upside down core package to rest in, before the cope is placed on the mold package, sealing it off.
In the end, if you have a 60's block with these stamps, there is a 95% chance that it is what you think it is. But it can be your luck that the 5% of mismatched core packages could be one of yours. If you have a 70's & up block, don't count on it, unless it's a bowtie (but only some bowties had different metallurgical qualities)
Hope that helps explain it.
When engineering originally developed the plan, they needed a way to identify the metallurgy after the block was poured, thus the fabled "stamp" But engineering soon realized that the same block part number could posess one of 3 different mettalurgical blends. Because of this, it was near impossible to trace or efficiently logistically locate castings from pourtime to end customer use, as well as service parts orders.
So it was abandoned, because with the original idea, you wouldn't be able to call any GM parts office & locate a "nickel 010 block", because there was not a specific part number associated with it. Parts are organized by part numbers, not core stamps.
Now, to straighten this out, they did change the casting part number to correspond with the metallurgical content. This is true for only older blocks (pre 71) Blocks after that just used the same sand cores as the older ones until pattern changes were made, which will give false hope to many.
Hinging on that, many cores were interchangeable. Today, error proofing measures have been installed, and it is impossible to assemble mismatched pieces without destroying a section of the core.
Processes were brutal years ago, and it was very common to grab the pallet of cores with the 010,020 stamps to keep the mold line running (even though the current run was not supposed to have the 010,020 stamps. The wost thing we could do, was to stop a mold line. If we did, the iron would cool, and we could freeze up the system with solidified iron. Always keep the mold line running! So, you cannot base your "nickel" block, solely on the 010 stamp on the timing face. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and cores have been switched in the past.
Today, most owners do not understand that the 010 on the side of the block has nothing to do what the metallurgical content is, or if it's a 4 bolt main.
Like I mentioned before, we have poured iron to what the part number is, not what the core stamps say. If I had 2 assembled core packages next to each other, you would not be able to tell if one had 010 on it, unless you destroyed & dissected it or poured iron into it & removed the iron to see. The one thing that is consistently 100% validated is the part number, which is part of the drag mold and is the seat for the upside down core package to rest in, before the cope is placed on the mold package, sealing it off.
In the end, if you have a 60's block with these stamps, there is a 95% chance that it is what you think it is. But it can be your luck that the 5% of mismatched core packages could be one of yours. If you have a 70's & up block, don't count on it, unless it's a bowtie (but only some bowties had different metallurgical qualities)
Hope that helps explain it.
Last edited by InfernalVortex; 06-28-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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#8
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
I did clarify how I know.The "Rockwell Tests" we did for hardness.Yrs ago we had a de-stroked SBC 010 block in a E Gas Austin that was .030 over block.Hardness can work in your favor or against you.That is true because hardness can be brittle or hold machine work tolerances.If it where me,before boring anything,I would sonic check it for thickness first.Thin bore failures is the mistake of the machinist who did the work and didn't check.The nickel tech was the hot ticket of the era back then.You see some of that in the SHP blocks along with thicker heavier blocks.
#9
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
For me to write what I would say in person is sometime difficult.I know because of assess to documentation of the build spec sheets while I was assigned to the engineering dept.I needed that to do the work I was doing.That ranged from hardness tests to dyno room tests.My department was the inspection dept and I was loaned long term to the engineering dept.
#10
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Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
Thanks Infernal, that's substantially the same info I recall coming across some years ago. No idea whether it's the same account or not but says basically the same thing.
#11
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
LOOK.I TOLD YOU GUYS HOW I KNOW.THAT I WAS THERE.THAT I WAS ASSOCIATED WITH GM'S ENGINEERING DEPT.(YEAH WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE KNOWN)
SO BELIEVE IT OR DON'T.IT ENDS HERE!!.NOT GOING TO CLUTTER THIS O/P'S THREAD WITH THIS.
SO BELIEVE IT OR DON'T.IT ENDS HERE!!.NOT GOING TO CLUTTER THIS O/P'S THREAD WITH THIS.
#12
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From: Roanoke, Virginia
Car: 1992 Camaro RS 25th Anniversary
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Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
Yeah, kinda disappointed in how my thread got turned into a big argument about nickel content in blocks
#13
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 26,605
Likes: 1,904
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
The "nickel" thing is somewhat relevant to the discussion at hand, since you have one of a block potentially involved.
However, even if it's true, the things that matter the most about a block, DON'T include the stamping #; or for that matter, the nickel content.
Pay more attention to how much meat is left in the cyl walls; core shift (easy to spot sometimes... is the cam bore CENTERED on the boss at both ends? are the casting core plugs centered on THEIR bosses? etc.); and ABOVE ALL, whether it has any of The Problems that plague the notoriously crappy QC from back in those days when the unions "ran" GM:
Shall I go on? I've personally fought EVERY ONE of these problems MULTIPLE times. And there are others, those are just the most common.
TSBHP is PARTICULARLY common in 70s blocks. About 1 out of every 3 has it, if I was the guessing kind I'd guess that a gang drill/tap machine (1 out of 3 that did all the blocks maybe?) got out of adjustment in about 70 or 71, and stayed that way until about 79 or 80. It affected EVERY block type AFAIK: small block, big block, and 6-cyl (although I've never had a 6-cyl with it myself or worked on one, I have to take the word of other people who were willing to touch those). The factory KNEW they had a problem, since a listing appeared in Delco replacement catalogs for a mystery starter part # that never came on any NEW cars for listings that DIDN'T EXIST (e.g. 73 Checker cabs with 454 and PowerGlide... HUH?? ) that located the starter drive about 1/8" closer to the crank and used different bolts. Some observant union guy probably wondered why every Chevy he ever bought at employee cost wouldn't start, solved the mystery, and finally came off break up long enough to fix the loose part AFTER PRODUCING 10 YEARS OF GARBAGE.
The various Problems can be difficult to spot by the naked eye sometimes, but often, the Previous Owner's blabbermouth will betray them. For example, if you pick up a "recently rebuilt" short block that the PO drivels something that doesn't make any sense like "ran great, wife just wanted something with better gas mileage" (yes I've actually heard that lie) or "hate to get rid of it but I don't have a car for it right now" while a car is sitting RIGHT NEXT TO IT with an empty engine bay (yes I've been told that one too), suspect that the engine was SO DEFECTIVE in some one of those ways but he couldn't figure it out, that now all he wants to do is get it out of his sight permanently by making it Somebody Else's Problem.
I'd love to hear the inside story on what created some of THAT crap, as well. Especially, how the same stupid defective crap could get turned out year after year after year, and slide right on past all the "quality control" and "inspection" and all that, and get dumped on an unsuspecting world. It's at least partly CRAP LIKE THAT, among other stupidity of course, that cost GM its market dominance.
But aside from "nickel" stories, THOSE are the things that will ruin your build, NOT the block not being "high nickel". That "nickel" crap isn't worth a .... {wait for it} .... NICKEL if the motor CAN'T WORK or EATS PARTS. Forget stamping codes and "nickel" and instead focus on WHETHER THE BLOCK IS ANY GOOD OR NOT.
However, even if it's true, the things that matter the most about a block, DON'T include the stamping #; or for that matter, the nickel content.
Pay more attention to how much meat is left in the cyl walls; core shift (easy to spot sometimes... is the cam bore CENTERED on the boss at both ends? are the casting core plugs centered on THEIR bosses? etc.); and ABOVE ALL, whether it has any of The Problems that plague the notoriously crappy QC from back in those days when the unions "ran" GM:
- The Starter Bolt Hole Problem wherein the starter bolt holes are too far from the crank causingi the starter to never mesh completely with the flywheel in turn causing it to make that horrible grinding noise you can hear a quarter mile away that gets worse with shimming and makes the motor hard to start
- The Lifter Bore Problem, wherein the lifter bores don't point at the cam, and NO MATTER WHAT you do (short of re-boring them to the Rambler size) the block EATS cams, always the same lobe(s); seems to usually be toward the rear of the motor, and seems to be more prevalent on the pass side, but my sample size is pretty small, I'd say I've only had 15 or 20 blocks that have had it over the years and it always seemed to be #6 or #8 or both, so maybe that's not a large enough sample
- The Bell Housing Dowel Pin Problem, wherein the bell housing dowels aren't registered on the crank CL properly, forcing the torque converter off-center as well, which makes it EAT pump bushings NO MATTER WHAT you do, the only cure being offset dowel pins
- The Cylinder Orientation Problem, wherein the cylinders are too far to the front or rear, causing it to be impossible for the rods to fit, because at the small end they're forced HARD up against the inside of the piston, and at the other they're equally HARD UP AGAINST either their neighbor or the side of the journal
- The Bell Housing Angle Problem, wherein the bell housing flange isn't perpendicular to the crank CL
- And of course, some blocks have more than one... the 454 block in my 74 Caprice convertible has both The Starter Bolt Hole Problem AND The Bell Housing Dowel Pin Problem, and a 350 I had in a 78 Z28 had both TSBHP and The Lifter Bore Problem.
Shall I go on? I've personally fought EVERY ONE of these problems MULTIPLE times. And there are others, those are just the most common.
TSBHP is PARTICULARLY common in 70s blocks. About 1 out of every 3 has it, if I was the guessing kind I'd guess that a gang drill/tap machine (1 out of 3 that did all the blocks maybe?) got out of adjustment in about 70 or 71, and stayed that way until about 79 or 80. It affected EVERY block type AFAIK: small block, big block, and 6-cyl (although I've never had a 6-cyl with it myself or worked on one, I have to take the word of other people who were willing to touch those). The factory KNEW they had a problem, since a listing appeared in Delco replacement catalogs for a mystery starter part # that never came on any NEW cars for listings that DIDN'T EXIST (e.g. 73 Checker cabs with 454 and PowerGlide... HUH?? ) that located the starter drive about 1/8" closer to the crank and used different bolts. Some observant union guy probably wondered why every Chevy he ever bought at employee cost wouldn't start, solved the mystery, and finally came off break up long enough to fix the loose part AFTER PRODUCING 10 YEARS OF GARBAGE.
The various Problems can be difficult to spot by the naked eye sometimes, but often, the Previous Owner's blabbermouth will betray them. For example, if you pick up a "recently rebuilt" short block that the PO drivels something that doesn't make any sense like "ran great, wife just wanted something with better gas mileage" (yes I've actually heard that lie) or "hate to get rid of it but I don't have a car for it right now" while a car is sitting RIGHT NEXT TO IT with an empty engine bay (yes I've been told that one too), suspect that the engine was SO DEFECTIVE in some one of those ways but he couldn't figure it out, that now all he wants to do is get it out of his sight permanently by making it Somebody Else's Problem.
I'd love to hear the inside story on what created some of THAT crap, as well. Especially, how the same stupid defective crap could get turned out year after year after year, and slide right on past all the "quality control" and "inspection" and all that, and get dumped on an unsuspecting world. It's at least partly CRAP LIKE THAT, among other stupidity of course, that cost GM its market dominance.
But aside from "nickel" stories, THOSE are the things that will ruin your build, NOT the block not being "high nickel". That "nickel" crap isn't worth a .... {wait for it} .... NICKEL if the motor CAN'T WORK or EATS PARTS. Forget stamping codes and "nickel" and instead focus on WHETHER THE BLOCK IS ANY GOOD OR NOT.
#14
Thread Starter
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: Roanoke, Virginia
Car: 1992 Camaro RS 25th Anniversary
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.08 non-posi
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
I have to agree with 1Gary. I'm asking questions, I don't need responses to be page long rants based vague and ambiguous claims with a obvious strong personal bias.
Sorry if this pisses you off, but we are grown men. Could we please act like it?
Sorry if this pisses you off, but we are grown men. Could we please act like it?
#15
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 26,605
Likes: 1,904
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
Not sure where all this is going, OP...
I tried to END and AVOID the whole argument about the "nickel" thing, especially since as described it really doesn't amount to a hill of beans as a determining factor to an engine rebuild, and move directly toward WHAT TO LOOK FOR IN A BLOCK. Avoiding personal bias is what it's all about: just stick with THE FACTS and WHAT MATTERS.
Sorry if that comes across as a "rant"... all it is, is a recounting of my personal experience of dealing with Chevy BLOCKS.
If you'd like to talk about BLOCKS and avoid the other guy there who ... has some other axe to grind I guess, I'm not sure what or why though, feel free to PM me, and I'll answer any questions you may have about why stamping codes and "nickel content" are NOT the most important thing to look for in a BLOCK, and instead, discuss the kinds of things you should look for that REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE to the outcome of such a project.
I tried to END and AVOID the whole argument about the "nickel" thing, especially since as described it really doesn't amount to a hill of beans as a determining factor to an engine rebuild, and move directly toward WHAT TO LOOK FOR IN A BLOCK. Avoiding personal bias is what it's all about: just stick with THE FACTS and WHAT MATTERS.
Sorry if that comes across as a "rant"... all it is, is a recounting of my personal experience of dealing with Chevy BLOCKS.
If you'd like to talk about BLOCKS and avoid the other guy there who ... has some other axe to grind I guess, I'm not sure what or why though, feel free to PM me, and I'll answer any questions you may have about why stamping codes and "nickel content" are NOT the most important thing to look for in a BLOCK, and instead, discuss the kinds of things you should look for that REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE to the outcome of such a project.
#16
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,734
Likes: 11
From: Not in Kansas anymore
Car: 82 Z28
Engine: 383 SP EFI/ 4150 TB
Transmission: T400
Axle/Gears: QP 9" 3.73
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
You got your answer in post # 2
The bottom line is;
none of what you are asking about and "think" is important ( casting #'s ,Block ID , etc ) from a engine's past life
has any relevance to the 400Hp engine you are proposing building.
End of story.
The bottom line is;
none of what you are asking about and "think" is important ( casting #'s ,Block ID , etc ) from a engine's past life
has any relevance to the 400Hp engine you are proposing building.
End of story.
#17
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
Shaz-David Vizard is first class in the building of SBC's.Google his books and read them cover to cover after buying them.Best investment you can make.Relevant info in all topics how to books.
You should after that be answering questions yourself better than most.Alittle homework,but a very little.If you have questions after that,post post them on the forum for the benefit of all the members that follow you in a similar build.It's kind of what makes the world go around on forums like this one.
Here is a link of his latest book:
http://www.allbookstores.com/David-V.../9781934709177
You should after that be answering questions yourself better than most.Alittle homework,but a very little.If you have questions after that,post post them on the forum for the benefit of all the members that follow you in a similar build.It's kind of what makes the world go around on forums like this one.
Here is a link of his latest book:
http://www.allbookstores.com/David-V.../9781934709177
Last edited by 1gary; 06-29-2012 at 09:34 PM.
#18
Thread Starter
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: Roanoke, Virginia
Car: 1992 Camaro RS 25th Anniversary
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.08 non-posi
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
How to Build Max Perf Chevy Small-Blocks on a Budget. I can't wait to read them!
#19
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
If it where me,to answer to your original question is,neither engine.I would want to take advantage of a hydro roller cam block and to do that a 1996 or later L31 truck block would be a good candidate.There is tons of them out there cheap.You can get a reto fit conversion kit for the earlier engines to change them to a hydro roller,but they are expensive costing tons more then finding a decent L31.
#20
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 26,605
Likes: 1,904
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
a 1996 or later L31 truck block
While all that old-timer hot-rodder lore is lots of fun sometimes, a newer block with better QC, more precise machining, less wear, and the factory roller features besides, all in one neat tidy package for about $50 at your local junkyard, is pretty hard to beat.
#21
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,498
Likes: 26
From: Macon, GA
Car: 1992 Camaro RS
Engine: Vortec headed 355, xe262
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt 3.70
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
Casting numbers? Dont matter.
Nickel? Dont matter
Came out of a vette? Dont matter
heads from a vette? Unless it's aluminum, it's garbage, and it's still not that great even if it is aluminum
Main bolts? Barely matter... barely. Depends on what you want to do with it and in a lot of cases 2 is better than 4.
What does matter?
1. Roller block
2. virgin bores, preferably with cross hatching still visible
3. no cracks
You go with a modern block and you avoid nearly every serious pitfall that can happen to you when block hunting. You wont have the starter hole problem or the awful quality control problems from the 70s blocks, etc. And you can run a factory style roller cam and lifters (MUCH cheaper) and enjoy the added reliability and performance from roller camshafts.
The reason this ever got brought up is because ,and apparently you haven't discovered this, is that while the most desirable blocks are modern 1pc RMS roller blocks, the most common blocks are 70s era blocks. People often label these as "heavy duty, high nickel, four bolt 010 from a vette/camaro/chevelle" blocks made back in the day that people are referring to when they wistuflly say "they sho' dont make em like they used to!". But those are by far the least desirable blocks. Dont buy into the hype. Pay attention to stuff that actually makes a difference. And if you ever hear "202 heads" you might want to move on to the next one.
Also, Smokey Yunick and David Vizard have a lot of good things to say, but a lot of their knowledge is somewhat outdated. Guys like them get kind of stuck in old school philosophies. Listen to what tehy say, and learn what you can, but be aware the things they say are not gospel. The real answer is in the power numbers people get in the real world and what they used to get to those power numbers.
Last edited by InfernalVortex; 07-03-2012 at 03:17 AM.
#22
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
Vizard isn't past tens(sp) and to lump him the same time period as Smokey is a mistake in judgement.He still is running classes out of one of the most respected cutting edge Universities in Ohio.Herds of machine shops and industry manufactures pay to attend his classes.
#23
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,498
Likes: 26
From: Macon, GA
Car: 1992 Camaro RS
Engine: Vortec headed 355, xe262
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt 3.70
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
I've got at least one, maybe two of his books along with several others. One of them I was extremely unimpressed with... maybe it wasn't Vizard's book Im thinking of? It had a lot of really bad advice in it I thought. It wasnt all bad, just a lot of things I thought were silly. Thought everyone should go buy a bead blaster and port cheap crappy outdated iron heads... Why bother these days? And I can see the logic behind buying a bead blasting setup, but I just dont think it's necessary.
I'll have to go back and look sometime to see which one it was.
I'll have to go back and look sometime to see which one it was.
Last edited by InfernalVortex; 07-04-2012 at 02:07 AM.
#24
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
The one single regret I have is I did a L31 for my 383 build.In hind sight I now wish I had build a LS series engine or a SHP block engine in that order of preference.The money difference give dollars per hp would have been well worth it.
#25
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,498
Likes: 26
From: Macon, GA
Car: 1992 Camaro RS
Engine: Vortec headed 355, xe262
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt 3.70
Re: Engine Building & Identification questions... Please help!
And yet people still build flat tappet 350s with 3/4 race cams and 202 heads...
At least the L31 is a roller block with modern heads. Hard to do it any better than that for that kind of money with a Gen I block.
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