mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Well guys I just took the casting numbers off of my Camaro's heads and I think they are 8886883 (I am not sure thats what it looked like with the old oil), but I couldn't find that casting number anywhere and this is the only casting number I could find that looks similar 3998993. Is there even Chevy heads with the casting number 8886883? Any help would be appreciated.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yeah the 888 # is def not a SBC head casting #.

Get a GOOD pic, no sludge, of it; and post it here.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Apeiron

3998993

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Yeah these heads are probably the worst 350 heads ever made. They have 75cc chambers with 1.72 intake valves and 1.5 exhaust valves.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Iunno about "worst"; that's .... a really special distinction.

But certainly, pretty bad. Not worth spending money on or around, if you want power. Best to proceed directly to replacement and then move on from there.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I am gonna replace them with some 64cc with 2.02 intake valves and 1.6 exhaust valves.

Atilla the Fun

Oh please, those aren't always 1.72'd, and as the heavy castings, they can be big-valved safely. Being '72, they may not have hardened exhaust seats, but they're far better than the '624s that always crack sooner or later. With the 1.94" valves, on a flat-top 350, they're okay for 300 HP with a DE265, intake and headers. With 2.02 / 1.60" valves, milled 0.030", ( or small domes ) a better intake, and a DE275, they'll give 350 HP, though any modern head will put that same combo well over 400.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Yeah but I don't think they have ever had work done and I figure I might as well just throw some better heads on it.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Definitely.

For the costs involved, you may as well just get some heads that are well-regarded to begin with. Even some 083's would be a huge improvement. There's a lot more to good power than intake valve size (in reference the urge everyone has to "2.02" everything).

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Oh yeah I know I just figure I might as well while I am at it and most remanufactured 64cc heads have 2.02 valves anyway.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yeah that's a good zero-cost way of supplying the correct eye candy to attract the uninformed, so it's just about universal in the "ad copy war".

Pay more attention to what castings the heads are, than to whether somebody has jammed the larger valves into them. You can jam those into any random sort of crap, even TBI heads; won't make a damn bit of difference until every OTHER restriction is removed, such that the valves become THE SMALLEST restriction. Which to be totally honest, a good set of undercut 1.94" intakes will flow more than a cheeeeeeeeeeep set of 2.02" ones, anyway, EVEN AFTER the other restrictions and whatnot have been attended to.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

I am kinda confused about what you're saying are you saying that 1.94 valves are just as good as 2.02 heads or that I should make sure I get good heads by checking the castings?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I'm saying, when you buy heads, the most important thing is THE CASTINGS; and that any goob can jam 2.02" valves into any heads, with or without doing the port work such that it makes even the tiniest bit of improvement; and that taking steaming bucket of manure heads and jamming 2.02" valves into them is a sales tactic used to dupe the gullible into paying top dollar for GARBAGE.

I'm also saying, a GOOD 1.94" intake (undercut, back-cut, margin relieved, etc.) can SIGNIFICANTLY outflow yerbasic cheeeeeeeeeep 2.02" one; and that you can get SEVERAL TIMES as much improvement out of properly done port and similar work, as the valve size.

After all, there's only .080" difference between 2.02" and 1.94"; .040" all the way around. And also, it doesn't do a damn bit of good to increase the valve diameter, if all that does is close up the "crack" between the circumference of the valve, and the "vertical" "wall" of the port.



The valves in these pics are only 1.94". Imagine how much worse this problem would be with EVEN LARGER valves.

Caveat emptor.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

The diameter is not what you look at though. You want to look at the area of the circle and there is a 8.4174726 % difference in the area between the 1.94 and 2.02. I didn't even really think about the castings though. You are totally right about that. I will make sure to check the castings before I buy a set of heads.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Unless you enlarge the port, a larger valve just means the air in the center of the port has to travel farther to get around the valve in the way. Larger valves can actually negatively impact port velocity which is always a big deal. If the air moves faster more air will go into it. Big valves are rarely going to be a significant improvement in performance. The casting is BY FAR the most important part of performance. Period. Adding larger valves to most factory heads is about as useful as shiny valvecovers.

If you ever see anyone selling heads as "2.02" heads, that means they either have no idea what the hell they're selling and/or dont care, or they're intentionally misleading you. Look for specific casting numbers. Good castings perform well even with normal-sized valves.

Apeiron

No, you look at the diameter. Does air flow through the head of the valve, or does it flow around it?

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

But if I get of heads that were originally 2.02 heads they would out perform 1.94 heads right? (Meaning Chevy made them with 2.02 valves)

Apeiron

There's not many heads that came with 2.02 valves from the factory, and they weren't the best castings. Valve size is only part of the equation.

ZimGTA

If the ports are optimized for the bigger valve.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Than what heads are good?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Like everything, "good" depends on what your goals are, and who you ask.

Generally, AFR heads are "great". Trick Flow, RHS, and a number of others are "very good". Stock Vortecs, Edelbrocks and plenty of others are "good". Any other stock GM (GM Performance castings not withstanding) I would classify as "meh" or worse. Of course, at all levels, some castings have various levels of potential when worked on by a professional.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

There are a few others here and there but the most common decent factory castings for custom performance 350's and 383s are, in no particular order:

113
083
906
062

None of which have anything larger than 1.94 intake valves and none of which can hold a candle to mediocre aftermarket heads that will come with larger valves out of the box. Pro Comp heads are bottom barrel aftermarket. In the grand scheme of things intake valve size is pretty far down the list of things you need to pay attention to. The money that you would spend installing larger valves and porting to fit them is money better spent in other areas. But if you just have nothing else to spend it on, just be aware that larger valves will lower your port velocity at lower RPMs shifting up the powerband a little further and hurt your low end throttle response. Make sure the castings can flow enough air to support the increased RPMs.

mmadden55

Vortec heads are the best chevy iron head but require a different intake. Patriot makes a relatively inexpensive aluminum head that will kick *** on any iron head. Affordable aftermarket iron heads are the dart iron eagles.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

I don't have the money to buy aftermarket heads though.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

I am looking at more muscle car era heads 66-72.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

For a 350 they? I have heard they are for a 305.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

That's too bad. Those are all mostly crap. I just replaced my "muscle car era heads" with a set of vortec heads. They are a far better head than anything from the 60s/70s.

A decent set of used vortec heads don't cost hardly anything, and even when you take the cost of the new intake into account, your total cost is still way less than a set of new aftermarket heads. Aftermarket heads are great if you want to build big power or turn a lot of rpm, but a set of vortecs or a set of well ported 113s will give you great low end torque and good horsepower, which will make a great street motor.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

What makes the vortec heads so much better than older heads?

Apeiron

Raised intake ports and improved combustion chamber design.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

30 years of technology, materials, manufacturing, and design improvements.

Don't get super hung up on these numbers, just use it as a rough comparison, a lot of them are from different sources with slightly different testing setups and parts etc. But as a general guideline for comparison it can give you a useful idea of what is in what ballpark as far as flowrates. Vortecs induce a swirling high velocity intake charge and a much improved combustion chamber, so counting only the flowrates sells them short. But even then they are pretty much the best cast iron factory Gen I sbc head ever made. Aftermarket heads blow them out of the water, but you will pay.

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...fo/heads1.html

462, 441, and 882 are your "muscle car era" heads. The others are L31 (Vortec 062 and 906), L98 Vette (113). The 083 (IROC l98) heads should be close to the 113's, but the real advantage with the 113s is just that they're aluminum, and better than pretty much all the crappy 70s smogger heads. The 083s and 113's are about even with the camel humps, but way better than everything else. The main advantage is the 113's are aluminum and have much better exhaust port flow, and the exhaust port is always a killer on sbc heads. 113's are the heads used on the zz4 crate engines.

And remember, the valve will spend most of it's time well below max lift during operation. It's not at max lift, and then closed. It has to ramp up and transition through the low lift parts of the curve, and this is where larger ports and larger valves can be a hindrance, They hurt port velocity, and this is the big advantage of vortecs. They flow unbelievably well at less than maximum lift, and they get a huge edge because of that. Think power under the curve. But if you're trying to feed a big cube 383 to 6500-7000 RPMs with a giant cam, larger ports and valves are absolutely necessary. If you're building a street car it's better to go for the smallest port you can get away with without losing a lot of peak horsepower, because you'll get a much stronger, broader power curve as a whole.

Here is a good write up about Vortec heads:

http://www.customclassictrucks.com/t...evy/index.html

Im not suggesting that you go out of your way to get Vortecs over everything else. But Im trying to show you that modern technology has made enormous improvements over the older stuff, and Vortecs are the pinnacle of that. They were the last new head design for the Gen I sbc, and they have a lot of unique features. But even the sbc heads from the 80s were much better than the garbage in the 70s, and better than a lot of what was around in the 60's. The exception to this rule is the 187 and 193 swirlport heads, which just aren't great high performance heads.

You have to understand that the "muscle car era" stuff has the reputation it does because the government regulations on emissions, crash testing, fuel economy, gasoline, etc, severely hampered efforts to make horsepower and quick cars. Under the buckling weight of all of that, designs in the 70s had to make serious compromises in almost every conceivable way to meet all the requirements to be a successful production engine part. And horsepower/flowrates suffered signfiicantly as they could no longer be a priority.

In 1973 the regulations hit hard, and the entire american car industry fell into a huge downward spiral that they were just barely crawling out of by the mid 1980s, and didnt really move past until the 1990's. During this time from the 70s to the 80's, there were no aftermarket CNC'd aluminum heads available for average joes like us. The technology to make something like that was either far beyond our grasp, or far too expensive to be economical. GM production heads were garbage for over a decade and so were power levels. The ONLY OPTION people had for 15-20 years, was to find some old camel humps, port em as best they could, and put some big valves in them. That was for most people really all they could do. It wasn't until the late 80s early 90s when L98 heads started ending up in junkyards and IROC's and late C4's started getting parted out for the first time that viable, affordable alternatives showed up. So for about 20 years, the best way to get a fast 350 was to find some camel humps (462's) and hog em out!

Today, we have much better options available to us. Even L98 heads are primitive compared to Vortecs, and Vortecs are excellent for hot street cars, and drag racers and circle track racers love them because they're just so much better than any other factory casting, but modern aftermarket heads are a HUGE leap beyond even Vortecs. Things have changed in the past 15 years pretty drastically, and not everyone has kept up with the times. Definitely the reputations of those old "muscle car era" parts have not diminished at all, but they're simply outclassed by modern heads. If nothing else, 083's use centerbolt valve covers, and will seal much better. No more valvecover oil leaks. Designs have just come a long way, even little things like valve cover oil leaks are much less common with the newer designs.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I was thinking camel hump heads and aren't they as good as the vortecs?

midias

For my self I would take vortecs over camel humps any day. You can get vortecs cheaper usually and I have seen stock vortecs with different springs make 400hp. That and if you get camel humps you are going to most likely get a 40ish year old head. I like newer heads, but if you want a camel hump with new castings, 2.02 valves and 67cc chambers grab some world products SR heads I have a few friends who run them on their mild SBCs and they love them.

something like this 700 bucks shipped

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-PBM-SBC...5eaa41&vxp=mtr



I love my vortecs a HUGE upgrade over the 882 heads and only 700 shipped to my door ready to go.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I just yanked my camel humps off my motor and replaced them with Vortecs. Once the motor is together and in the GTA, I'll have some dyno and 1/4 mile numbers to compare to the same motor with 461s. The only other modifications to the motor will be 1.6 rockers, the Vortec TPI base (vice the Accel base used with the 461s) and a new tune suited to the vortec heads. Same cam, and same short block. It should shed some light on what the Vortec heads can do, at least for TPI motors. I'm hoping for roughly 30 horsepower over the old setup, which made 250RWHP, 331RWTQ.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

But I can get camel humps for like 500.

Apeiron

$500 for camel-humps? Ouch, what a rip-off.

midias

What valves?

Do they have hardened seats installed?

Screw in studs?

Guide Plates?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I sold mine for $200, because around here, people realize that's all they're worth.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

2.02 intake and 1.6 exhuast and all the goodies.

midias

Not bad but I think I would still like to put the cash to a new set of vortec casting or WP heads.

Head technology has changed a lot in the last 40 years. Then again if your goals are only about 300 crank horse they will probably work just fine.

Also double check they have accessory holes many do not

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Here are the heads I am looking at buying http://www.ebay.com/itm/PERFORMANCE-...item53ecc5d334

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Are you even reading what people are telling you? They are inferior in pretty much every way. They may be a little cheaper, but with a regular 350 you need all the help you can get to put out decent power numbers in a streetable combo.

You can get them and probably be happy with them, but there are much better heads to build engines with these days.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

I am a broke kid every buck counts and from what I have been reading they are still pretty good heads. They aren't the best but they are still nice.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Those aren't "camel hump" heads.

416 is 82-up 305 heads; 434 is 81-back 305 heads

434 is a terrible casting. Utterly worthless.

416 is better, still terrible in stock trim, needs ALOT of work to make competitive.

Pass. Sounds like the typical "lipstick on a pig" deal, where you pay supermodel price because of the lipstick, but in the end, you still get a pig.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Son of a gun. They are all modded 305 heads.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That's what we've been trying to tell you... people will start out with ANYTHING, and graunch the "eye candy" size valves in it, and take your money.

Lipstick on a pig.

In case you can't tell, I've been doing this for a while now. (as have many others here) Good idea to ask BEFORE you buy... you have no idea how often we see "I just bought this [fill in the blank Vette Z28 69 whatever whatever mumbojumbo whatever] but my car doesn't run any better HELP!!!" on here.

If you want to not fall victim to lipstick on a pig syndrome, you have to first make sure that the thing with the lipstick on it is not a pig. (hmmmmmmm) In the case of worked-up stock heads, that means, WHAT CASTING IS IT. All the work (lipstick) in the world won't turn a pig casting into a supermodel one.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Okay I'll make sure they are camel humps or another good from the factory casting before I buy them.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

You've been told a dozen times that even 083s (Iron L98 heads) are better than camel humps, and those things are a dime a dozen.

midias

Let him waste his money on camel hump 40 year old castings. Castings never meant for todays gas and need decent machine work for good performance. Heads that also will most likely be off a 327 and not have accessory ports so we can answer that question for him later.


I spent a LOT of time researching heads before I got rid of my 882s in excess of 50 hours and also joined a dozen forums just so I could PM different users about their experiences. In the end after talking to a lot of people who owned patriot 2.02 vortec heads I went down that road. I am very happy with my choice. A friend who wanted a tq monster but not vortecs went world products 1.94 heads and loves them that car has massive low end and drives great.


As far as I know vortecs are the best bang for the buck. But if you don't want to deal with vortecs go with world products or dart torque heads for a mild build. No matter what you decide for a good pair of iron heads for a nice mild build you are looking to spend around 700-800. Much for for high end heads such as AFR.

But if you want older "performance" heads here are some 041 heads they are about the same as the camel humps and were used on 300hp 350s

http://www.ebay.com/itm/283-327-350-...15549771830423

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

If I had to do it all over again, I would get some aftermarket aluminums. Jegs aluminum sbc heads are just over $1000 a pair, and they're supposed to be the pro-filer castings... really good heads. If you're gonna spend $400-$600 on iron heads, and then you need to change valve springsa nd get them reconditioned etc... sometimes it just makes more sense to get a nice aftermarket head to begin with.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Brodix/158/102...oductId=760699

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performan...14022/10002/-1

Stuff like this will blow Vortecs out of hte water and make camel hump 350s look like iron dukes.