NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunately I won't have the carb on until next spring (it'll be on the engine but not setup in the camaro yet) you can probably just do a google search, and for gears look on jegs, they have all different ones

Trevmust

Thanks. I'l deff look into it.

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Ok, the gear will be a HUGE deciding factor in performance, mpg, acceleration and all that stuff, they're the final part to transfer the power to the wheels so they can make a huge difference

Trevmust

3.42 would be decent right?

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Yup, those would be on the median of mpg and performance, that's what I'm doing with my 383, lots of people go with the 3.42s because they are the best of both worlds, I might have missed it but what transmission are you using? If its manual you can control your mpg and performance by yourself, depending less on the gears, but with an auto tranny, you're going to want a 4 speed (overdrive) to give you the better mpg

Trevmust

richmond gear 6 speed rod

Trevmust

Can I use 6" rods?

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Yup you can use the 6" rods, I personally only have expirience with the 5.7"s but I know many people have used the 6"s

Trevmust

so if I got the eagle specialties kit with the 6" rods, it would just move the wrist pin upwards on the piston I assume? I also would have to get my block clearanced right?

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

That's correct, and yes it will need to be clearanced, that won't take too long at a machine shop, or look online on the tools you need and how to do it yourself, it's not that difficult, another thing is that people sometimes have problems with normal cams, you might need to get a small base circle one or else you'll probably have to get the rods clearanced also

Trevmust

Any suggestions? I was hoping to use a "Retro Fit Hyd Roller Cam - Chevrolet Small Block 284/284" from lunati

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

First off I would go on comp cams or any other cam website and ask for a reccomendation, then base what cam you pick off that, and with the retro fit cam you'll need retro fit roller lifters which are about $300, what year is your block? Mine is a '95, it wasn't a stock roller but had the provisions for a roller setup, so I got the holes drilled out for the spider bolts and for $200 you can buy the whole OEM roller setup, including lifters, if it doesn't have the studs to bolt the spider too, you need to go with a flat tappet, or retro fit roller, but you will need the retro fit lifters too, which are pretty pricey

Trevmust

Its a '90 EFI, but im converting it to carb

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Would you happen to know if it's a roller? Or if it has provisions for a roller cam? What car did it come out of?

Trevmust

L05 210hp and 300 torque. its a truck engine, 4 bolt main. I talked to the guy at lordco today and he said go shorter duration but more lift...

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Yup, that's what you want for a street build, it'll give you some good torque numbers, my cam is 230 duration and 560 lift with 110 lobe seperation, I'll see if it has roller provisions

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Ok it is NOT a block that can use the stock roller setup, so if you want a roller cam, you'll need the retrofit cam and retrofit lifters also, or you could stay flat tappet

Trevmust

how hard is it to set valve leash?

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Not hard at all, search google or some different ways, some people either twist the rod until they feel resistance, or pull it up and down until it doesn't move anymore (which is right as the rod touches the rocker)

Trevmust

how often do you have to do that?

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

Just once before you start up the engine, sometimes racers will reset it every once in a will to make sure they don't lose performance

Trevmust

oh ok

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Most LO5 blocks can accept factory roller lifters & cams, even if they came with flat tappets in a truck. You may be sending the poor guy down an expensive road that he doesn't have to travel.

Trevmust

well what would you recommend then?

DeltaElite121

flat tappet if you want to put the money elsewhere. Roller if you want the small perks they offer; but be anticipating the cost difference.

I vote for a solid flat, personally if you're going to bother with a flat tappet. It's a pain in the butt to break the cam in, but solids offer great performance that hydraulics don't.

IroczFan

talked to a engine builder last night and got a price on a 383 build looks like in the $2500 ranger and i am using the 2bolt 70 impala motor i picked up some 906 vortec heads with aftermarket springs that can handle 550 lift going with forged pistons and rods, ill have more details tuesday when i sit down and talk more with him about what is all going into the motor

1gary

quote=DeltaElite121;5282681]flat tappet if you want to put the money elsewhere. Roller if you want the small perks they offer; but be anticipating the cost difference.

I vote for a solid flat, personally if you're going to bother with a flat tappet. It's a pain in the butt to break the cam in, but solids offer great performance that hydraulics don't.[/quote]

I just want to inject that today's oils lacking the additives means for either hydro or solid lifters need you to add it in for the whole life of the engine.We have seen cam failures with one oil change without a additive many miles later.

Primary reason is everything is geared to roller cams.We along with other shops because of customer mis-use and then customers trying to blame the shops,almost refuse to build non roller engines.We would rather have a following of happy customers.

1983Chimaera

Make sure the Vortec heads have had the pushrod holes clearanced for extra lift or you may have issues. Be aware that the 906 casting was also used on alternative fuel versions of the Vortec engine and some marine applications, and as such there is a small chance it has the hardened valve seats that can cause restrictions in the airflow. The likelyhood your set has these is minimal, but still worth mentioning. Also be sure to have the heads THOUROUGHLY checked for cracks, especially around the center bolt hole and the inner cylinder's (2, 4, 3, 5) exhaust valves. The factory Vortec heads are extremely prone to cracking in these areas. This is why virtually all aftermarket versions of the Vortec head feature thicker decks.

On another note, are you going with forced induction, or planning on nitrous? If not, why bother with the extra expense of forged internals? A decent set of hypereutectic pistons will do fine so long as detonation is avoided (which it should be anyway!). A forged crank is fine, but there is little need to have all forged internals for a street car unless you plan on breaking 450 hp or doing serious strip time with the car.

IroczFan

i know for a fact the heads are not for marine use they where actuly on a 355 in a 86 IROC before i got them. and i thought that to that i didt need all forged internals but it looks like thats whats gonna happen. taking the motor in tomoro and will update with what is decided

IroczFan

for fuel delivery i got 2 options 1. go with a mechanical fuel pump and drop the tank and run a new line or 2 put on a regulator, im thinking to go the regulator route but not sure which one to get or what i have to do to make it work properly anyone have any tips on what regulator to buy and how to install them like the return line

IroczFan

stoped at the engine builder last night motor should be done in about 2weeks hears some of the things going into it, 350 .30 over 400crank, Forged 5.7 H beam Rods and pistons, 906 vortec heads 64cc about 10.8 to 1 Compression was told i gotta run premium gas. Some what agressive cam going with a B&M 2400 stall, Vortec intake, either running a 650 or 700 holly carb shorty headers... i think thats about it. now just need help on how im gonna get fuel to it scince i have a TPI set up now

evo-offer

i can jump in and ask som questions abuot this this if it´s okay? i´m planing also do do 355 or to a 383 stroker engine. BUT if i´ll go with the 383 stroker. wich part do i need to change? i want alu heads,wich induction system? stealth ram? injectors?, headers ect.

Thanks in advance

IroczFan

well really all u need is a 400 crank and have your whole rotating assembly balanced, as for induction anything u want will work. i choose to go from TPI to carb

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

No one uses 400 cranks anymore. Just get a cheaper, better, stronger aftermarket crank. Even a cast one is fine for MOST situations. Just get a 3.75 inch stroke crank. 1 pc or 2 pc RMS to fit your block, and I would try to keep it internal balance if possible for the sake of simplicity.

The issue with the stroke being longer is the rods are closer to the oil pan rails and camshaft during rotation, so it may behoove you to get some H-beam rods which is allow for much more clearance. Not a requirement, but it makes it simpler. You may or may not still need to grind the oil pan rails. Most of the time you will need to clearance them. Not a huge deal. 5.7+ inch rods preferred. If you use 5.65 rods you can actually use 350 pistons, but its better to go with at least a 5.7 rod.

So with all this in mind... you just need "383 pistons". Just narrow it down to pistons for a 3.75 stroke, and note what length rod tehy're designed for. Get whatever's in your budget and fits together.

Remember, (1/2)x3.75+[rod length]+[compression height or deck height] = piston deck height.

For a 350:
3.48/2 + 5.7 + 1.560 = 9.00

Factory block deck is at 9.025, so your piston would, in that common case, be .025 in the hole. Just remember these are VERY fine measurements. Real world numbers will vary and will need to be measured to pick ideal head gasket thickness, but you ideally want a .040-.045 quench distance, ie the distance between block deck and piston top + head gasket thickness. Ideally you want .040-.045, but if you just assume its okay you can easily end up at .060-.090 in the hole, which invites detonation and ruins efficiency. That quench number is a big part of why some engines are just stinkers, and some run great. If you buy typical parts without paying attention to it, you'll usually end up with your pistons around .065-.075 in the hole, and that is TERRIBLE for performance.

You can fine tune your deck height by playing with pin heights, rod lengths, strokes, and so on and so forth. But in general you get a 1.560 pin/compression height piston for a 350. With the longer stroke of a 383 the pin goes higher into the piston to keep it from coming up too high. The correct piston depends on A) Rod length B) ideal compression height C) chamber volume and D) mfg method

And remember also, quench distance HEAVILY affects the static compression ratio, but dont use the head gasket or the quench distance to adjust the static compression ratio. You want to aim for 9.5-10.5:1 depending on whether you're using iron or aluminum heads. The lower you go there the easier it will be to run pump gas. Cam will need to be chosen based on this number. The higher it is, the bigger cam you can use, the more power you will make, etc.

Use chamber volume (unless you already have heads, in which case that becomes one of your constraints) or piston dish volume to fine tune the compression ratio.

This may all seem like a lot of work. But you're talking about dumping a couple thousand bucks at least when its all said and done for just the bottom end. It will behoove you to get familiar with these things and go through the permutations with available parts and compression calculators, quench distances, deck heights, etc, etc.

Every slow garbage custom built v8 you see thats barely churning out 200hp, it's doing that because someone didnt go through the trouble of properly optimizing the setup on paper before they started throwing things together. The effort you make now will make a huge difference later.

But if it really is just too much for you, you can buy one of those rotating assembly kits. You'll still want a machine shop to balance it, but you will have very little control over your compression ratio in the end in comparison, and you may get lucky and get it in the right range... but it severely limits you and it will worst case scenario cost you a lot of power (for the same money spent) or the ability to run it on pump gas.

This may seem like a lot, but it's all interrelated. If you start paying attention logically to what these numbers mean, it all starts making sense.

Remember, you're paying the same for the parts regardless of whether you pay attention to measurements. Paying attention to the measurements and trying to idealize it gets you more power for the same money spent. You're paying for power, you may as well get as much of it as you can.

10.8:1 is REALLY pushing it with iron heads, even Vortecs. You will need to run a VERY aggressive cam to be able to run that on even premium gas. If I were you I would seriously rethink the direction your going because Im not sure you wont end up running race gas with it. It will depend on your dynamic compression ratio, which is determined by a whole lot of things but mostly camshaft. You want it, ideally, to be between 8-8.25. Highest I would go is 8.4 or so... it's just cutting it too close. If you're running flat tops you're right at 8.7:1 DCR even with big, lazy Comp 280H cam. Most modern cams in that duration range will end up with you being stuck in the 8.9-9.1 range. Any kind of only "somewhat" aggressive cams will leave you at that range or higher. Best way to blow up good pistons (especially hypereutectics, they will shatter in no time in detonation scenarios) is to get into spark detonation.

http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

Here's a quote from that page.

To get that down into the 8.0ish range you'll need to run a pretty big cam. It may not be the most streetable car after that. You leave a lot of efficiency on the table.

Remember, it costs a LOT more power to pull spark than it does to lower the compression ratio. It costs a LOT more money to blow up pistons and have to build it again due to detonation than it does to just buy a new set of pistons to begin with.

Remember, best way to adjust compression is with piston volume and chamber volume. Worst way is to do it with head gasket. Use head gasket to set quench. A tight .040ish quench discourages detonation, very important in your case. Also very important to check valve-piston clearance with quenches that tight.

At 10.8:1... with an edgy cam, premium gas, and a .040 quench, you may be able to make that work out. But it's just risky. If it doesnt work out you'll be A) stuck pulling spark and losing a lot of power or B) paying tons of money for race gas all the time or C) replacing hole-y pistons.

Sounds like you're running flat tops with 64cc iron heads in a 383. Thats a recipe for disaster. You need some dished pistons.

Also, to make it a little easier on you... with 64cc Vortec heads, a quench in the .040-.045 range, and a 3.75 inch stroke (for a 383), you will want pistons that have a 13-16cc dish to get it between 9.5 and 10.0:1. Try to find something in that range. You can still use a very aggressive cam, you will still have great torque, you can run pump gas, and you will be capable of pushing 375-450 flywheel horsepower pretty easy depending on which cam you choose. With that kind of power, if you set up the car right and get the engine tuned, you might be able to crack into 11's at the track. If you're running some old school edelbrock type rebuilder RV cam type flat tappet cam, expect closer to 350fwhp. If you run a modern aggressive hydraulic roller cam, expect closer to 450. I think 400-425 is most likely with a streetable, aggressive roller cam and it will still be a hoot to drive around. And that's still good for a healthy 12 second quarter mile.

You'll have a fast car no matter how you slice it. I just want you to be able to run pump gas without blowing it up and put a decent roller cam in it to get as much power as you can. If you go flat tappet, at least go with a modern style grind like a Comp Xtreme energy or Lunati Voodoo. Even a Comp 280H or 292H would be a huge improvement over an edelbrock or summit cam. Just break it in correctly.

evo-offer

another question then. i´m gonna need to take ut the crank and everything to rebalance it because i´m gonna do a t56 swap from auto to manual. how much do i need to change if i´ll go with the 383 stroker kit? otherwise i´ve looked at this rebuild kit:http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FE...n/?prefilter=0

really it doesn´t matter what i choose becuase i´ll have to rebalance everything anyway. it depends if the 383 stroker converison are much expensiver except the kit itself.i´m already gonna change to full length headers and complete exhaust. can you guys recomend some "cheap" alu headers?want new and fresh things and lower the weight doesn´t hurt either.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Its a lot cheaper to go with a 1 pc RMS setup for a T56... hopefully you have a 1 pc RMS block. Its much easier to go with a 1 pc RMS block and internal balance crank and you can use a factory LT1 flywheel and call it a day. The machine shop will need to balance the rotating assy, though.

Dont get a rebuild kit until you know what parts you're working with. The farther you get from factory the more useless those gets. Centerbolt or perimeter bolt heads? vortec or standard intake ports? 1 or 2 pc RMS? You want to use those crap header gaskets or legit good ones?

1gary

Remember for these"stroker kits" to be "a deal" they have to have some cheaper parts in them which are leak links.It is much better to cherry pick parts from a number of different manufactures to end up with a better stroker overall.Your going to re-balance anyways and if you have to buy a flywheel or flexplate it isn't a big deal to mate up.My build I went .010 down with the deck,Icon -18cc pistons,Scat 5.7 rods stroker clearanced IRP bolts,Howards forged track smart crank(a really well worth money spent crankshaft in every way),and a .040 head gasket.Head selection for chamber volumes are important,but all too many guys in cast iron heads fall into the pit of thinking all they can do is use out of the box heads.I wanted to build a torquer engine which off idle started the torque curve as early as possible on low octane gas.You can tailor a head based on intake runner size.I really like RHS's products,but they didn't have what I needed.So I ended up with Iron Eagles which out of the box are I think 72cc or 70cc chambers,but ideal intake runner size on the small side of 180cc.We cut those down to 67cc chamber size to get a 9.3 ish SCR.There in lays the tailoring for heads to the end result.use of the engine.This combo is able to off idle to only 3500 rpm get about 500lbs of torque with the roller hydro cam section.I'll tree most street light racing with that o to say 70mph.And with the bottom end parts chosen if I want to get stupid,I can spray it never giving it thought.A change of attitude here is the main msg.Don't buy based on pricing.Go belly up to the counter and pay for in the long term what is needed.

evo-offer

Good info. Sounds that is better to pick parts myself. I supposr i need a new intake, like stealth ram for example? And bigger throttle body if i'll go with a 383 stroker? i've heard that the stock intake does not flow enough even for a sto k engine. Is that right? So even if i'll go with a 355 stroker so is a new intake a good idea maybe?

cuisinartvette

Do the stroker upgrade your intake later when you can afford it
What was said about compression/pulling spark is spot on.
Ease up on your C/R with iron heads milder cam with vortecs probably a better combo anyway. They make good torque on the street but are not a high rpm all out performance head. Youll regret doing a 350 and not a 383

Talk to your machinist....or the person balancing it to pick your parts. Not all of them are friendly put together when it comes balance time.

evo-offer

money for the stroker kit is not gonna be the problem when it´s time. just want to know what part i´ll should use or need.

IroczFan

acoording to his book it was some where around 10.8 to 1 i thought that was alittle high myself. he said we could have it be lower with alittle work but he said 10.8 to 1 would be fine and not have to run race gas. maybe ill stop and sayy i want the compression alittle lower


Posted from Thirdgen.org App for Android

1gary

Guys get all defensive when I name brand names not to use.For me and the experience I have to offer,I will never buy,use,or suggest Eagle anything.The forgings,machine work and QC is questionable.On some of the circle track engines the cranks broke right behind main journal number 2.The journals are tapper to the point where to make them useful right out of the box they needed to be turned 10/10.

IroczFan

been working on pulling the motor the last few days should be out today with no problems

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

I agree, eagle is not quality stuff, i went with the scat stroker kit and the only problem with those is that you have to polish the crank the opposite way because when they cut the crank they spin it the opposite way it would spin in an engine and they polish it the opposite way too, which leaves metal shavings in the engine if you dont fix it

IroczFan

starting to clean up the engine bay for paint also bought a aeromotive fuel regulator 3-15psi hoping to have the motor back by the end of the week

IroczFan

motor is in but having issues getting it to fire up it has spark and gas got it to back fire once other wise it doesnt even try to run any ideas on wats wrong?

IroczFan

anyone???

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

sounds like a timing issue

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, dial your timing back a little bit. Backfiring through the carb is usually the distributor being too advanced.

10.8:1 is fine with aluminum heads, with iron heads you're really pushing it. But if any iron head can deal with it, its Vortecs.

IroczFan

we got the timming issue figured out now.. it really wants to run but wont took all the plugs out and the back seem to be getting gas but not really the front ones the car is up on ramps but i dont see why that would matter