bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Well, seeing as I finally got myself a job, I can now put a 350 with a few goodies into my poor LG4 Trans Am.

The block is just your standard 2pc RMS 350 with a drivers side dipstick and some 882's (Which will be thrown in the street).

So here is my proposed build plan, that I hope is right on the money for what I am trying to do with my car:

-SBC 350 .030 overbore
-416 heads from my LG4 (I hope my LG4 has these, if not I will find some)
-Edelbrock RPM intake
-Holley 670 Carburetor (Already have)
-MSD Streetfire distributor (Already have)
-Hedman long-tubes (not sure about mufflers)
-Howards camshaft (Duration 286/296, Lift .470/.470)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRS-CL110951-10/
-Full roller rockers 1.5 ratio
-Obviously new gaskets, oil pump, and timing kit

I will be most likely using a 700r4 (Not the one I have, third gear is shot), and I have 3.23 gears.

Does this sound like a well-matched combination? I want a cam that will give me good mid-range power and a bit of a lopey idle, and also work with my heads and intake. I have been researching alot on the basics of building SBC motors, as I have only built one in the past and it was basically a stock 350 with vortecs and stock cam. I believe I matched the powerband of the intake with the powerband of the cam, which should work well with 416 heads. Should I get new springs for the heads, or will the stock ones do the job of handling this cam? Can I use stock length pushrods? ANy specific head gasket I will need for running 305 heads on a 350?

Thanks as always!!

gwarren007

iTrader: (1)

By the time you buy the parts for the 350, have it machined, you are over the cost of a L31 short block

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-factor...parts/12556121

Heres a cam you could use-
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevy...item27bc96707b

Your 305 heads will need to have the intake valve opened up to 1.94" or 2.00", and unshoud it while you are there...

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

No, I wont be near that price, even with a new intake, headers, etc... The 350 is a low mileage running engine, that I plan on using for the shortblock. Will the parts I have listed work together..?

camaronewbie

If you ever have any thought of lowering (or if it's already lowered), skip the long tubes - no room under a 3rd gen stock height for duals, let alone a lowered one. I've seen hundreds of 3rd gens with duals, and NONE ever make a driveway or speed bump without major exhaust scraping. Besides, single exhaust to dual outlet muffler will be plenty for your motor.

Looking to save some cash - skip the roller rockers - useless except for serious hp monsters (IMO) ... everyone buys them to say they have them, when in reality they never take the valve covers off to prove it. Roller-tipped rockers would be a nice addition, inexpensive and worth the tiny bit extra (as opposed to the large difference of real roller rockers).

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I fully understand both points here, but my car isnt lowered, it actually sits kind of high, and I dont plan on lowering it, I like the 80's look of it. Shorty headers seem to cost more with a y-pipe. Long tubes will leave room to grow, where as if I get shorties I may have to get long tubes later on depending on what I do with the car. Plus I like the added rumble.

I was going to get the roller rockers for the same reason which was to just leave room later on. I'de be lying if I said I didnt want them in part for their looks even though they remain hidden under a valve cover, lol. I may go with roller-tips now that you mention it.

How about the cam I selected? Will it work well in correlation with my intake/heads? Will it give me the lumpy idle I desire?

Guest

I strongly doubt the compatibility of that Howards cam with that 3.23:1 gear, in OD. And what torque converter were you planning?
Also, you'll need dished pistons for those #416 heads.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I am not sure what pistons are in the 350 that I have, I will check when I start to tear it down. I thought that I could run flat-tops, and run premium fuel (93 Oc).

What is it about OD that makes those parts un-compatible? I am not second guessing you, I am just pursuing knowledge. I am really set on using a howards cam, and I really want a nice lopey idle with good street manners.

I havent thought about my TC yet, any suggestions?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

A lopey idle and good street manners don't go together.

With more cam, the engine won't be happy cruising locked up in overdrive with low ratio gears.

With more cam, you need higher stall. With that cam, 2500 if street-only, 3000 if you plan on racing it (3000 with lock-up would be quite manageable on the street as well).

Stock valve springs barely handle a stock cam. Don't even consider trying them with that cam.

I think you're assuming too much about the 416's. They will need larger intake valves (larger exhaust valves wouldn't hurt), full porting, new valve springs (and retainers, if you want to do it right), and going through by a competent shop (may need valve guides, for instance). And, you haven't bought the intake manifold, if I'm reading your original post correctly. And you'll need head and intake gaskets. The whole package would run a bunch better if you did this instead http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...ter/sd8060arpm . As long has you don't have pistons with a big dish. Even if you do, I think you'd be happier with pistons to match the Vortec heads than what you'd have with the 416's.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Do you have any spring reccomendations?

What heads would you recommend over the 416s, I cant afford those vortecs, and would also rather have the old-style perimeter bolt heads.

Would a th350 trans be better for this combo? I haven't had much luck with the r4's anyway. I know the th350 has added cost because I have to find a way to mount the TQ arm, but it may be worth it?

I have two sets of heads: 882's, and 416's.. That's why I wanted to use the 416's, but not if they're going to need alot of money in machine work to be tolerable.. I definitely want a lopey idle, but not too radical because I do want to drive this on the street, but with the stall you recommended I should be fine.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Will these valve springs suffice?

http://www.competitionproducts.com/H...uctinfo/98111/

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

For a street car, the TH700 is the better choice. If it's a strip-primary car, driven to the track, a TH350 is tolerable.

I combined your questions about heads to give one answer.
882's are best for holding the walk-through garage door open on hot breezy days.

If you can't afford those Vortecs, then you probably can't afford this project. My point was, making the 416's suitable, plus buying what you don't have and will need, would come to the same cost or more than that Vortec kit.

I'd forget the roller rockers as well, as you aren't going to spin it that high with that cam. Since the Vortec kit includes the proper rockers, that's another piece to add to the "won't be spending" list to be able to afford the Vortec kit.

If I ever own another SBC, I will make sure it has centerbolt valve covers - I've had more than my fill of leaking perimeter bolt covers.


Can't tell from the description. Best to call CP or Howards (I believe they are the same company, or at the very least, closely affiliated with each other {Edit - their websites show the same street address}).

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I decided against roller rockers, and am just gunna get roller-tips.

$1k for heads seems excessive for what little power this engine will make in the end. I am looking just for some factory heads that will work and suit my goals. I am really just shooting for ~3-350 hp. I don't want to buy the best of the best heads just for a daily driver, I just want whats best for my goals for this engine.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It's not $1k for heads. It's $1k for complete assembled heads with springs that will support your cam, with rockers, intake, intake and head gaskets, and bolts.

If you use the 416's:
Basic rebuild shop cost - $200
1.60" intake valves - $100
Shop labor to cut intake valve seats to 1.60" - $150
RPM intake manifold - $150 ($225 if you want the Air Gap)
Gaskets & seals - $100
Rocker arms - $100
Porting supplies - $30 (assuming you have the die grinder and do the job yourself)
Really cheap valve springs - $25

That's $855 so far, low-balling it. Good valve springs will probably run you $75-$150. If you can't do the porting work, that's going to run you $150-$300 at least, assuming the shop will even do it.

I wouldn't call the Vortec head kit "the best of the best". I'd call it the best possible deal for a decent 350 street performance engine.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but I have no love for the SA Holley carbs. I'll take a good ol' CC q-jet to them any day. If you're willing to give up the lopey idle sound for performance (assuming you still have the CC q-jet), a Comp XE268 cam, the Vortec head kit with the spread bore intake manifold - I'd put my money on that combo outrunning 416 heads, that Howards cam, RPM intake, and the Holley (all else being equal). And, the CC q-jet would have better street manners and get better MPG.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I do love the cc qjets, but the PO removed the qjet, intake, and distributor and replaced them with aftermarket parts. Otherwise I would use the qjet, which has served me well in the past, I have tried to replace the aftermarket parts on my 305 with qjet and factory stuff, but it didnt turn out too well..

Rockers are 70, and the gasket set is 46 (fel-pro), otherwise your prices are pretty spot on. I am not dead set on using the 416's, but they're what I have so I was going to try and use them, but I guess not now.. My goals aren't unreasonable but I am trying to stay on budget here, and vortecs are out of the question. Are there any factory heads that will suit my needs, that I can look for on craigslist, or somewhere? I have never ported a head before and I am sure that I would mess it up somehow and be down more money..

I really want a little lope in the idle, but is there a cam that you could recommend that would allow me to use some more budget friendly parts, and still have good power?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Sorry to hear about the demise of the CC q-jet. All too familiar story.

If WOT performance is not as important as staying in budget and the sound at idle, then spend machine shop money on the 416's getting the tops of the valve guides cut down for positive-type valve stem seals (also gives you more valve travel), get good valve springs, keep the stock valve sizes and have the heads freshened up ("valve job"). It will still have decent power, but will be down a little at the top of the cam powerband. If the engine has dished pistons, then using the 416's would be a plus.

The other route would be to get a set of 906 or 062 heads from the junkyard (tell them you need heads for a '96-'99 pickup with 350 - don't tell them you want "Vortec heads", or the price will double), and have the same things done to them (cut the valve guides, good valve springs, freshened up). Some have reported getting a pair of such heads from a pick & pull for $100. You'd then be getting the Vortec version of the intake manifold, self-aligning version of the rocker arms, and Vortec version of the intake & head gaskets. That would give you the 1.94" intake valves and the legendary Vortec performance. However, if the engine has dished pistons, the compression might be a bit low (although you could have the heads shaved a little to bring compression up).

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Yes, top end power is not what I am concerned with, basically I want the down-low power that I would feel throughout normal city driving and an occaisonal spirited drive. Although I dont want to cripple my engine unneccessarily if I dont have to. I think I am going to scour a few junkyards this weekend in pursuit of some heads and I will see what I can come up with. Never know, I may luck out!

The 350 I have is still mostly assembled, so I am unsure what pistons it has. It wont take me long at all to pull the intake/heads and see, which I may do tomorrow after work (I am DEAD tired after work, though lol).

What valve springs can you reccomend that will handle the Howards cam? I dont want any broken springs or anything like that while I am driving..

BleedOrange

look at these heads and see if they will work. had a set similar to these on a stroker and they did real good for my street application.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-152123/

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

If the engine has dished pistons, you certainly don't want 72cc chamber heads.

BleedOrange

ahhhh I had flats in mine
maybe with a lil investigating they may make others I jus knew those were the ones I used and they are still running today. I pulled the stroker out to make room for a 463 and my buddy put the stroker in a 4x4

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I am going to try to get some used vortecs, hopefully I can find something.

What valve springs would you use? What retainers?

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Got the head pulled off, and it turns out the motor is .030 over (Which the guy told me) and the crosshatching in the cylinders is like new, no rust, pitting, gouges, scratches, nothing. Seems like I got a good deal on this motor which makes me happy. Only downside is it has flat top pistons. I probably wont be using my 416's then. I will be trying to find some vortecs or something now.

Edit:

What about these heads?
http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/pts/2505053020.html
(462624.....75-86...350/400......76cc chamber, 1.72/1.5, 1.94/1.5 or 2.02/1.6 valves)

or these:
http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/pts/2465645965.html
(I think they MAY be vortecs, but I cant tell, I emailed him though)

Also saw these heads:
http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/pts/2442087616.html
(3927186....69-70...302/350......Camel hump,64cc chambers,accessory holes)

BleedOrange

If it has flat tops in it you could use the one I posted yesterday from summit. those are decient heads and all the work has been done to those heads then you dont have to find a machine shop, wait til he has time to get to them, and hope he is good at his job
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-152123/

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

A little pricey.

Tying to bargain hunt currently.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Opinions on the heads in the links I posted?

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Sorry for all the posts, but I have been doing tons of research and scouring heads on the 'net, and I am leaning towards these from skip white:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-C...item5644758ca2

Which needs these head gaskets:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-1003/

These intake gaskets:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-1206/

These Exhaust gaskets:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-1405/

These Spark plugs:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FRM-5224/

And these head bolts with washers:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-H...item5198a2b4c5

Would there be any alternatives to gaskets, or am I pretty limited to the ones they recommend?

I remember reading through a thread about the heads he sold, and that they were actually nice heads and worked well.

Quick specs:

64cc Comb. Chambers
2.02/1.6 valves
up to .550 lift on the springs

Sounds perfect to me, but I am no expert. Give me the greenlight, and these will be ordered when I get my next paycheck (Next friday).

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Thoughts on Skips heads?

If they have all the proper specs, than these will be the ones I will use.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

pretty good deal for complete aluminum heads, should be able to reuse your intake if needed... but get the 190cc heads the 210s will be overkill with your combo, unless you plan on going wilder in the future

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

The 190's only come with straight plugs:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-C...item519838c7e7

I will be using these headers:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HED-68460/

Which should be fine because stock heads are straight plugs. Also, will the valve spring retainers be fine for the howards cam? Will I need self aligning rockers or normal?

Those should be the last of my questions regarding the heads.. lol

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

im not sure on the rockers, let someone else answer that... i know mine use self aligning not sure what studs those heads come with... those heads come with springs installed so no need for any extra retainers or keepers, thats one of the things that make them such a great deal... those headers should be better then what im using so your good with them, good price too, id get 1 3/4 primaries if i was going for long tubes though, only reason i got 1 5/8ths is cause i got hooker 2055r's for ease of fitment, and i got them with the Y and a high flow cat for $50 they will def be fine for your almost mild setup though... if you were planning to go wilder later on, spend the extra $$ and get the 1 3/4s now... should be a real nice performer good luck

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Well, the ad says that the springs on these heads can handle .550 lift, so I see no need to change them because my cam will only be .470 lift. Someone else may know though, I am still learning all these small details lol. I would figure that the springs in those heads being able to handle the increased lift, that the retainers would be made to handle the same, but logic only goes so far..

The price jump from 1 5/8" primaries to 1 3/4" primaries is from $175 to $520.. I will be okay with 1 5/8" for now haha.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

yeah i hear ya was just throwing it out there for you, the 1 5/8ths will be fine... those springs are fine too... could probably go bigger on the cam too now lol i would look in classifieds and on craigslist for the headers, i got mine on CL... just went and read your OP again... you havent got an intake yet, get that used too, save some money just clean them up yourself, you got a grinder?? wire brushes compressed air and brake cleaner make almost anything look new lol, i went and got a sandblaster so now there isnt much i cant get clean

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Yeah I hear ya on getting used parts, saves alot of money. But, with new parts there wont be any un-forseen mis-haps that you may get from buying used.. I look on craigslist every day actually so if a part comes up cheaper, I'll buy it, if it's something I can work with. I had a drill with a wire-wheel attachment but my drill broke recently which sucks so now I have to buy a new one but thats no problem. I still have to wire wheel my engine and hit it with some engine enamel so make it look shiny new..

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

This is really the only other cam that I see that may work:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRS-112141-08/

All other seem like they'd be too agressive for what I'm trying to do..

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

that cam should be badass and a better choice IMO power from 2500 to 6500... id add a higher stall converter with it though...

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

what exactly do u hope to use this for?? i read your thread but did not see anything that describes how your going to use it... seems to me that you want to get gas mileage? just wanting to know more so my suggestions can be in line with what your trying to do

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Gas mileage is not my main concern, but I also don't want to end up getting 7mpg either.. It will be a daily driver for a while, and a fun weekend/car show cruiser. I want power than can be shown on the street that can take down most cars if I needed it to. I want that nice lopey idle because it's a sound I have always loved, and it tells people that my t/a means business.. lol

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

lol i hear you good plan... id say that cam would work but you def need a higher stall not sure about the mpg but if you get it tuned right then keep your foot out of it itll probably get 15mpg

BleedOrange

lol I hear ya Bradley thats exactly how I started out....... now I gotta a 463 BBC I just put in and now my only problem is holding it between the ditches 1 thru 3 gas mileage can be measured by the foot and I have learned those real pretty cars are nice but a car that isn't so pretty can be a head turner too with the right cam.......good luck on your build hope you enjoy it as I do mine................. btw the way personally I like the split duration cams just sound meaner to me

BleedOrange

OOOO yea just an idea go to Youtube and type in your cam part number sum guys post what their cams sound like on there I found mine on there it sounded ok but for some reason mine cutts up a whole lot more than the one I found on there thank goddness I thought I may have gotten to mild but glad I stuck with it now

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

So you would go with my second cam choice? I think I am going to go with that one, since I am getting better heads than I first figured. Just sucks that I cant buy all the parts right now, I gotta keep working to afford them... lol. I typed it into youtube and it seems nobody posted their howard cams.. oh well.

What stall would be good with that cam?

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Oh- and should I use 1.5 rockers, or 1.6?

BleedOrange

I used a Lunati cam wish someone had a post for your Howards on youtube for you. I think 1.5 on the rockers is what the common lifter is. If it were me I would call the tech line at Howards because the higher ratio rocker arms opens the valve faster, higher, and hold it open for a much greater total period of time as compared to lower ratio units. <-----found that info on the web cause to be honest I always jus ask the techs I never really knew what the difference was....haha

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

personally id use 1.52 but i dont think it would hurt to use 1.6 someone else chime in if im wrong... dont worry about not getting all the parts at once check out the build thread in my signature, i buy what i can afford when i can afford it i just try to find the best deal i can and its taken me a heck of a long time LOL id go with a 2500 stall if i were you, the specs say that cam starts at 2500 and its actually quite a large cam (way bigger then mine lol) if you were drag racing id stall it higher but since u want it as a driver 2500 is about as low as that cam will want to go, especially with the 3.23 gears... are u gonna upgrade those gears in the future?? id say that cam wants 3.73s at least... just keep small diameter tires on it... and you are right those heads allow you to go bigger with the cam which is why i suggested it be patient i know what your going through, im still going through it my car isnt even close to being finished i just bought a 383 rotating assembly and right now im negotiating a deal on a nitrous kit for $100 LOL... STILL DONT HAVE SUBFRAME CONNECTORS!! be smart and try to buy things 1 time only ive made some mistakes with my purchases but ive been lucky most of the time i started with 1 plan and it evolved and i ended up selling the parts i accumulated and getting all new stuff... if you make a plan and stick to it youll end up ahead of me at least LOL

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I am just going to go with 1.5 rockers, I think that 1.6s is to make up for a smaller cam or something like that..

2500 is what five7 recommended as well so I will go with that. I am going to buy the heads this friday when I get paid, and then I am going to get the other most expensive stuff as I get paid and get the cheaper stuff last. I do plan on swapping rear-ends later on because as of now I have a peg-legged drum rear which leaves alot to be desired.. lol

I've had SFC's for a long time now, I just gotta get them welded in. I will most likely get them welded in after I get the motor swapped and tuned correctly.. I am trying to stick with one plan and not change anything, so I dont end up doing what you did.. lol

Thanks for all the help guys!

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

yes the 1.6s will give you roughly .030" of lift... im using them on the exhaust side... but i got a deal on the split ratios so i went with it... should be able to get BNIB 1.5 roller tips for around 60$ shipped if you shop around

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Was going to go with these:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-66906C/

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

yeah there alright check out ebay though... and remeber if you order from summit save up and order EVERYTHING ALL AT ONCE save on the 11$ shipping they charge you for every order

BleedOrange

Flip is correct on using ebay. On my build I always checked ebay first then went to Summit. I couldn't find everything on ebay but I did buy prolly 30% of my build there.It took me about a year to build my engine. Just bought it one part atta time but I did buy it in the order I needed to put it together so I could slowy build the engine too. But I had twisted the crank on my old stroker and decided big block was what I want to try. By the way I did try searching Jegs, Scoggins, and other places but summit or ebay seemed to always be cheaper I almost forgot you can even check RacingJunk.com too some times you can fins a good deal there too

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Yeah I never buy from jegs, its always either Summit, Ebay, or craigslist. They're life savers. Speaking of which, check out the deal of the day! I just bought this off craigslist for $30!





Awesome, just saved me $120!

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

yeah man thats a sweet deal, I got mine off CL too mine was more expensive because it was for vortecs but still a steal @ 75$