VonKaiser

No I'm not joking and no I do not want to hear any negativity or comments about me "bastardizing" my Camaro. I want information only.. Let's keep it civil in here please.

There is an adaptor plate that mates a Ford 302 to a 700R4. That solves my transmission and rearend issues. I've heard of Mustangs with SBC's in them but not the other way around for Camaros with SBF's in them. Well except for one 1st gen. So, anybody heard or know about this sort of swap. I'm starting the teardown of the Camaro in August of this year.

FYI, I want a non-GM V8 or V6. I love the 302 but wouldn't be opposed to the 4200 I6 or the Ecotec S\C I4. I dont go to the track and I don't street race so I don't care about "omg a 350 is cheap power!". I only have 2 criteria; needs to make a good noise, can do 0-60 in less than 6 sec.

radical82

Front mounted oil pump and front sump pan going to cause some major interference problems with the Camaro crossmember.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

to be honest, if you're going to do something to "be different" the ford 302 isn't the one to do it with. you could easily do a turbo 4cyl that will move the car out well, sound halfway decent, and get good gas mileage with awesome throttle response.

i like the ecotec idea...

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

There's many good reasons why you don't see Ford motors in Camaros... I'd be suprised if you got much useful information here.

If those are your only two criteria, then why are you wanting to do something that doesn't make any logical sense and spend more money than is necessary. A good GM v8 sounds good, and will get you to 60mph in under 6 sec. I'm not trying to argue here just trying to understand your logic (or lack thereof).

AutoRoc

iTrader: (1)

A solstice or sky turbocharged drivetrain would be cool as hell but they aren't exactly plentiful. Stock should put roughly 250hp to the wheels. With a tune, good exhaust/intake it will make 300rwhp/330ft-lb all day. Decent aftermarket also.

Quick check I did.. engines can be had for $2000-4000, transmissions auto or manuals for $500-1500. also... those aren't complete ready to drop in engines, probably complete longblockS.

DeltaElite121

302 would be a giant waste of time. You won't get your desired results out of that motor with the increased weight of a thirdgen. Even the foxbodies stock had problems pushing any real power without serious modifications. I would recommend a 351 if you were going to do that considering the parts are the same for 90% of it, and the size is fairly identical. You can also stroke the 351 out to a 393 for cheap(er), and easily get the power you're looking for. As far as what else is needed to swap - I couldn't tell you. It's not a common thing, so my guess is you're going to need to do some fabricating on your own.

VonKaiser

What are the options for that issue? Because the 302 is a slightly smaller engine in physical size versus my 305 wouldn't that not help a bit?

I like the Ecotec idea as well but the cost is double or triple what the 302 swap would be...

I asked for information about this swap and not to just come in here and be negative and start saying "GM V8" this or "omg you have no sense" that. Who gives a rat's *** what my motives are, they are indeed that, my motives. I came back here hoping there were at least a few people who would have useful comments (legitimate) suggestions and or information.

Stock 87-93 GT's easily break the 6 second barrier with that engine. Granted the Camaro weighs more but that's nothing an intake, heads and exhaust won't make up for. I do like the idea of the 351 and wouldn't be opposed to it either. They are becoming a little easier to obtain than the 302 HO if you can believe it. I'm torn on trying to fab the mounts myself having no experience with that sort of a task or have a machine shop do it for me. I'll need to check the adapter plate to make sure it bolts up to the 351 as well. Thank you for the suggestion! That's the reason I posted this is posts like this and the one from mw66nova.

cuisinartvette

Ditto on fitment issues with the pan.
302s while being a motor that can take abuse have NO damn torque.
People put sbcs in Mustangs as sbc generally are cheaper to build and have better parts available but that gap is narrowing.
Now I did read about your O.P but what about a 327 if youre looking for a short stroke motor?

Its always easier to do dentistry through the top hole.

torque_is_good

I would suggest that you head on down to the local drag strip and look at as many 3rd gens as you can that have a fabricated front end. That is where you're heading. Ask the owners what was involved, costs etc.

Oh, and I'll be waiting wth baited breath for August to see photos of this build

stroken85z

ive got no usefull info but i would say go for the 351 never heard of this even being considerd,would be cool to see something else besides a sbc in every thing

cuisinartvette

Headers could be a concern too something to consider

VonKaiser

The 302 has the same or slighly higher torque numbers as the 305 at the time. And isn't too far off from the 350, and considering the Fox is lighter than the Fbody the acceleration numbers are pretty similar.

Ford 302:
Engines Size liters /
cu. in Horsepower / Torque
ohv V8 5.0 / 302 205-225 / 275-300
ohv V8 5.0 / 302 245 / 320

GM 305:
Engines Size liters /
cu. in Horsepower / Torque
ohv V8 5.0 / 305 170 / 255
ohv V8 5.0 / 305 220-230 / 290-300

While I do appreciate the objective tone of the post and not being negative if I was going to do a 327 I might as well do a 350 for around the same money, either way I would be just another SBC 3rd gen Camaro. I want to break the mold and do something different. If the car has to sit in my garage for 5 years while I save up to pay someone to do the engine swap for me that's fine. I've got another car to drive daily and I can live without driving it--already been driving without it since Dec. 26th 2008.

Plus, I'd rather put a 3.1L V6 and put a huge turbo on it than stick another SBC in it.

The engine is the last thing that's going to be done (minus final paint), so the pictures the first year or so are going to be the teardown and restoration. Might be boring to most.

I've never heard of anyone even considering a 351 either. Assuming the 302 would work ok if a 351 is available and for the same or less money than the 302 HO I'd get one.

Headers can be fabricated though can't they? Infact fabricating those wouldn't be that big of a deal--just going to cost some $$$.

Project-RS

iTrader: (1)

from personal experiance, and friends 302's. they dont handle alot of power. im not sure if thats why guys drop sbc in theres, but i would go with a 351. if you have nothing but time, it wouldnt hurt doing some fab work. maybe see if theres a company that makes a k member for other motor swaps.

1BADRZ28

iTrader: (2)

It's not a bolt in simple as that. If you have some fab skills the world is your oyster. If not move along. That is all I will say.

92 Camaro

iTrader: (1)

you're actually the THIRD person that's doing this in just a few months.

DeltaElite121

That is the reason why we don't use the 302 half of the time. It can be made to be a stout motor by all means, but it won't be cheap and building on a 351W wouldn't be much more cost overall for a much bigger power increase. The only reason I was going to build the 302 in my Mustang was because they had factory forged pistons in quite a few years and I had saved up for a T76 to boost the daylights out of it. Aside from that - building a 331 or 347 is a dumb idea because a stock 351 has more cubes and the only real problem in size is the deck height. Most guys would buy a cowl hood anyways so the whole clearance issue is no longer a concern. Stock for stock the 351 is also stronger and can handle power well. as for the prior question - building a SBC is cheaper than building a SBF when it comes to serious power. Don't ask why, but if you compare stuff you'll see a large portion is literally double for the SAME part (check out ARP bolts for example).

Vonkaiser - I still own a Thunderbird Sport 5.0 with a 351W in my garage getting ready for a drop-in. I play on both sides of the pond, so I do understand what you're getting at. I really suggest if you want to go the CHEAPEST barebones route while being sensible about it you: buy a late roller 351W block, convert it to hydraulic roller, pull the heads off (because e7 heads are not worth a crap even when modded) and put a set of Trickflows or at the least GT40's/GT40P's on there with 1.7RR's and a decent intake of your choice (NOT BBK), and I guess if it really comes down to it - call Lemon's and get them to fab you a set of longtube headers. They would do it right for a perfect fit.

VonKaiser

That's definitely some good info! Thank you. I'm not planning any "serious power". All I care about is noise (which I prefer the Ford over the GM anyway) and enough scoot to get me 0-60mph in less than 6 seconds with my car at 3,200lbs wet. A stock 351W would do that with ease even with my 700R4. I’d only ever want to do full exhaust, intake and heads anyway so no serious internal engine mods are planned. Those mods on a 351 would give me all the extra power I would ever want anyway.
When the time comes I may reach out to you for help if you wouldn’t mind. It’s hard to find someone who’s actually helpful on either a Camaro forum or Mustang forum. LOL

DeltaElite121

Feel free to reach me on either, I don't care. I'm on both here and Mustang Forums (I prefer it over the Corral). F4TE is the casting you want for the block I'm talking about. Most likely 90% of the time it will be flat tappet, but you can change that easily. To make this swap even easier I would suggest running a carb, but you could do a mass air swap if you want (that will cost you a whole lot more in the long run though). Get yourself a nice Lunati cam and you'll be set. Whatever you do - go with either carbed or mass air. Don't do speed density. It doesn't like just about anything you do to it.

There's also a place that reworks GT40P's called Tristate. If you can't find a used set of 40P's, they'd be the way to go.

92droptopws6

iTrader: (10)

If I ever did a conversion such as this I would definately go to something way different like a 2JZ supra motor with a 74 mm turbo. The sound of exotic and the obnoxious ability to be fun!

Many years ago I had an Lx 5.0 minimal mods it ran 13.9 N/A 5 speed with 3.73s it ran good no doubt about that! Well, I had damaged the headgaskets. Car sat for a bit since I had a few z28s. Got my hands on a low mileage 5.7 from a wrecked 90 formula so immediately I looked at the stang 2 weeks later I was done. Slp 2600 stall,vette servo,pulley kit,custom ram air through the ford fenderwell. The car ran 13.4 so 5 tenths faster similar mods minus the 5speed...

I guess my point is you will need to mod the 5.0 just to get the same performance from a stock 5.7 its power to weight.

Whatever you decide have fun and enjoy the fabricating to me that's almost as fun as the first drive.

Andrew91GT

I'm working on it, have the engine on a stand in the garage but have yet to install it. I'm planning on going motorplate/midplate. The midplate serves as an adapter plate for the transmission (powerglide).

cuisinartvette

Yes


Powerglide too? Youre a real sick one lol. Yup.

Def. have to mod the 302 with a PG to get 0-60 in 6

No C4 or C6, forgot about the AOD trans too.

If you can get past the pan thing you could do this Im sure.

Andrew91GT

My junk will do 0-60 in less than 2 seconds on radials with the powerglide transmission. Easily.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Just grab a newer GEN III or IV in there and enjoy the way it will run all over any older SBC or SBF with stock long block parts.

Otherwise, the appealing idea of a smaller engine, I4 or so with boost, that is cool, less weight and the PSI to make ti roll out, just a great time waiting to happen.

72vega

iTrader: (9)

i know ya wanted a non gm v6 but this is a thought ive been running thru my head.. finding a typhoon/syclone 4.3 turbo. it would bolt right up to the mounts and trans. even if the whole engine couldnt be had, the intakes are out there on the sy/ty forums. just have the intake converted for vortec head pattern and run it on a vortec 4.3. food for thought... the only thing i can suggest is looking into an aftermarket k member. whole lot more clearance and adaptability for motor mounts.

VonKaiser

How hard would it be to get all that together? I mean finding Sy\Ty parts are next to impossible. Could I just get a normal 4.3L and add a turbo without those parts as-is? Has anyone done a 4.3L swap turbo or not?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

You can turbo anything, a 4.3 is a 350 minus 2 slugs, so i assume it will take 20 PSI with the right tune and some decent pistons.

VonKaiser

I knew the 4.3 is literally a 350 with 2 cylinders hacked off. Would I need a Sy\Ty intake and exhaust manifold to do the turbo? Or are there aftermarket ones? I totally wouldn't be opposed to the swap. But let's get back on the 302 topic. I might go visit a Sy\Ty forum for info on this topic though.

1fas92

iTrader: (1)

Hello,

Here i an idea......maybe
1989 tta set up
http://www.austinthirdgen.org/forum/...showtopic=4879

DeltaElite121

If they have carb manifolds you could probably do a really BA blow-thru turbo setup. That'd be interesting.

gtpro700

I hope your taking into consideration the exhaust system differences between a camaro and a mustang. Put a true dual setup on a thirdgen and it sounds a world different. On a more negative note my opinion is its a horrible waste of time and money. Yes you have your opinion on what to do but if there is no justification but "its what I want to do" its not really much different than a childs response to an adult. Also the being different aspect is out seeing people have said others have already done this pointless swap as well. Even if the swap goes well for you the motor will probably blow up on you in a short time anyway. Have fun with that. Again reason why a lot of people put SBC's in mustangs and not the other way around.

cuisinartvette

Not with a 302 it wont

DeltaElite121

If it were me - I'd stuff a mild 454 in there. That's not something you see every day in a thirdgen, and it's plenty for what it is, even if you don't modify it. The only reason I don't have one in my car is because my money is already spent on a 355. I'm "being different" because I'm actually building the engine from what I've learned, not what other people tell you to do. If you base purely off of opinion - you'll never be happy because you didn't really learn anything aside from other people's opinions.. regardless of how "unique" it is.

72vega

iTrader: (9)

i found 2 or 3 sy/ty intakes for sale on one website. of course theyre expensive, but it would be unique as hell. for manifolds, id just have some stainless headers made. but i know that bmr and spohn make some k members with the ability to put your own mounts on it. also AJE racing make a k member that might fit the bill too.

VonKaiser

If the price was right I'd do the TTA swap, but something tells me the TTA owners want too much for their engines and if the price for the TTA engine is the same as the 4.3T I'd rather get the 4.3T. Robbie, since you have a knack for finding good stuff cheap maybe when the time comes you can give me a hand.

After hearing literally hundreds of each Foxes and Fbodies over time I prefer the sound of the Foxes over the Fbodies. That's my preference. I'll not bother quoting the rest of your post as it's useless to me. Thanks.

I'll check out the K member you're referring to. Before I head over to the Sy/Ty forums what are the prices of the intakes that you've seen so far? So far this is the front runner if I do a GM engine swap if the Ford 302 doesn't work.

72vega

iTrader: (9)

i wanna say in the 400 range for it.. i think. i havent looked in a while. been concentrating on my LT1 swap that is now underway.

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

didn't someone in here swap a turbo'd buick motor in a third gen? it wasn't one specifically from a GN or GNX, but it was the idea.

72vega

iTrader: (9)

same as a TTA..

fireburdluvr85

you should look for a wrecked explorer for parts as the later models utilized alot of the gt 40 parts i hear. better intake and heads? my brother owns a 98 so i here about it everyday.....

Benjam88

My brothers are into Fords and both have Mustangs. I feel you on the sound part. We put together an exhaust system with 1 3/4 inch long tube headers into dual 3 inch with x pipe and cherry bomb pro mufflers. It makes one of the most beautiful sounds I have ever heard from a car. Why not do a 5.3 LS motor? You can pick them up all over the place for 500 bucks or less with low miles, and they sound amazing. It has a lot to do with the firing order. Fords use a different firing order on the 302 HO and it makes a great sound. The LS motors also use a different firing order and make a great sound. And there is a lot of info out there on the swap. They make plenty of power and are very tough to boot.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

I will agree that the 302 is one of the best sounding engines. I am curious if you could get away with using a Tubular K Member and fit the 302 oil pan. Might be worth looking into.

Fallen2603

If you're kicking around a 4.3L V6 swap, take a look at some of this:

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ild/index.html

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...all/index.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...-4-3-swap.html

The GM 3800 would also be a good choice, considering all the parts you can get for them.

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/index.php

torque_is_good

vonkaiser said the teardown would start in August. So, you guys are kind of late here. He no doubt purchased the 302 and has the plans laid out. It would be good for him to update this thread.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!!!!! take him to the edge of the village and stone him!

Guest

Maybe they locked him in an insane asylum with no internet access?
The GT40 and GT40P heads have to be ported to equal non-ported Vortec heads.
Port the Vortecs right, the best Ford 40s will never catch up.

torque_is_good

none of that matters.

vonkaiser has made up his mind. he will no doubt be back to let us know how the swap went.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

no, he's been stoned to death at an Fbody Swap Meet

chesterfield

In my day I've seen a few ford v8 thirdgen swaps. They were all in the junkyard half finished.

Guest

You already used the stoning joke. Or are you feeling a bit militant about this?
I would do a 393W if it was an easy bolt in, and if there were great heads at a great price, but I'd also do a Dodge Magnum 5.9 if it was an easy fit and if there were great heads at a great price.
But choice of car shouldn't have much to do with which small V8. Only the fact of a buildable V8.

Guest

Ok, the front dizzy allows moving the Ford back, but then you need a shortened driveshaft and a shortened torque arm. And will the transmission dipstick tube now fit?
That might get the oil pan out of the steering linkage.
So, weld in a new crossmember forward of the steering linkage, weld in another a bit behind the F-car crossmember, then cut the center out.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

touchy touchy... what doesnt make sense is that for those swaps youd spend MORE money then using a chevy at least the 5.oL is a cheap option.. btw im about to drop in a gt40p based 320ish hp 5.0L that I BUILT in my wifes mercury mountaineer this weekend

and dodge magnum 5.9!? everyone(except for you maybe?) knows that they dont make good heads for them because they suck... if its not the new fake hemi it sucks


i really dont care what someone does with a car they own, i was just having some fun... millitant no jovial yes, relax seanjohn