InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

LIke I said, the first thing to go in a build is the intake.

If I were the OP, I'd ditch the intake and spin it higher.

Unless of course he's pulling a trailer full of shrubs..

There's no reason not to.

86White_T/A305

Keep in mind another key factor the OP mentioned about this build is being able to be emissions friendly ..which staying with tpi will do.Nothing is wrong with using tpi if you have it..if you understand its strengths and weaknesses just like any other intake..you can still build a fun driveable car the makes results.

Whats the point of building a motor just to say I make peak power over 5000+rpm and it falls off at 6000rpm if I rarely bring the motor up to there since its a cruiser.At that point you have a powerband that not in the drivers style and its a waste just the same.

When I built my 355 tpi I looked at all these options..I never really took the car on the highway to care about a topend screamer.I wanted a deadly light to light monster that could and will take down ls1s with a much higher redline and power band in stock form.Building the 355tpi with head and cam matched to stay within the limits of my intake gave me just what I wanted.More peak hp was nothing to brag about..but my torque speaks for itself.Just another way to get the job done and reach into the 12's.

The car had some lope,still decent on gas,emission compliant,extreme fun around town to drive,and cost less because i didnt have to buy another intake.Porting a tpi can be done free if you like getting your hands a lil dirty with a dremel.

When I built my 383 hsr I had different goals in mind so I approached my build differently.I wanted a more nasty sounding..and upper rpm pounder to go after peak hp.

For what the OP wants..tpi is still a fine choice,if you currently have it..dont be afraid to use it.For a weekend cruiser..the torque that it will put down is a great way to plant you in your seat off the line.My hsr made my car feel more..hairy when coming up to 4000rpm and up.Neither intake is wrong despite what other may think.There is alot of proof of what a stock tpi..or slightly ported one can do all over this site..take your time and do more research..answers are everywhere.

Doom86

"The point" is to be faster when you floor it! That's probably WHY you are flooring it, because you want to be going MUCH faster then you currently are right?

Why invest so much money into a car just to "feel" fast during normal driving? Delusional nonsense. Make it fast and it will feel it when it should.

This is a common and daft statement and seems like more of a excuse, or a framed argument, "it's just a cruiser". It's just a slow motor more suited for a work truck is the reality.

You SHOULD be rarely bring a car to peak HP unless it's a race car. No one drives around with their foot on the floor all day, shifting at peak RPM. This is true if it peaks at 4.5k, or 6.5k.

The OP combo needs re-thinking. If you want the low burner shrub hauler ditch digger forget the forged stuff and keep what you got. Keep your cam, and intake and just put the heads on there and be done with it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Is it soooo hard to believe there are people out there that dont want and dont need a motor that revs over 6000 rpm? I'm really shocked at this.

I do agree with this however... dont need forged and high dollar parts to live at 5500 rpm and below.

gbayfisher

If i can get this thing to pull hard to 5300-5500, level off and shift at 6-6200 ish using the FIRST intake, its all I really need.

My builder highly recommended going 6 inch rods which in turn made him suggest the forged pistons. At that point, adding a forged crank was not much more, so regardless what cam/intake i end up using the motor is being built with forged parts. May be over kill, could be used for bragging rights, resale, or used for another motor combo, there's as many reasons to run a forged crank as there is to not need one, but i would rather over build than under build.
My only debate at the moment is where I want my curve to fall at.

gsf-87IROC

I'm right there with you.

There's 2 schools of thought. One is where a person thinks trading off low end grunt for a higher hp number makes perfect sense...the other is people who are willing to compromise high end power for fun to drive around town. 'Fun to drive around town' is understandably subjective...but whoever reads this in the future needs to understand the 2 trains of thought being demonstrated in this post.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My 383 was a high winder but was still fun to drive around town..but the compression/cam/converter needed to get the most out of that combo would not be suitable for alot of people out there... its just too aggressive. Thats where the more conservative build comes to mind and why I understand that some people want to build lower rpm, tq>hp motors compared to the high winding hp>tq motors

gbayfisher

[QUOTE=Orr89RocZ;4736077]My 383 was a high winder but was still fun to drive around town..but the compression/cam/converter needed to get the most out of that combo would not be suitable for alot of people out there... its just too aggressive. Thats where the more conservative build comes to mind and why I understand that some people want to build lower rpm, tq>hp motors compared to the high winding hp>tq motors[/QUote


I think if I max out the First tpi, decent stall/ tranny build, this thing should run very strong. What are my best tuning options using the factory computer? I do know a tuner guy with dyno, but want to get as much info on the subject first.

gsf-87IROC

I'm a big fan, if on a budget, of building in stages. Build a stout bottom end...then upgrade the heads and intake later. Or build a good longblock then upgrade the intake as you go.

Tuning is a whole other subject and I'd go surf the DIY EFI forum for info on that.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'd just use Tunerpro RT and go to Moates.net and order the stuff. chip adapter and chips, burn2 programmer and ALDL scan cable. Just need a laptop to work it all..preferably and older one. Dont know if its capatable with windows 7 or other new systems.

Works on XP.

Get rid of cold start and go with the 6E based setups found in 89 MAF cars. ARAP bin is ok starting point but modify the timing table first to be less aggressive for preliminary tuning and add in more advance as needed.

I think if you cam it right, the First will get up in the 5500 rpm range and flatline out to 6. Should work out with a 230 deg cam on a 383.

cuisinartvette

No its fact. Unless you add cubic inches youll build and get to a point that the only way to get the hp is to spin it higher. power dont kill parts rpm does. Youll only get SO much torque out of a 305, 350 400 etc without building bigger or moving the power band up....or adding forced induction/power adder

A strong running well thought out TPI with an auto/stall will WALK mine all day stoplight to stoplight; Although Im probably making a ton more hp you HAVE to wind it up to get there the whole point of a street motor is to get the power without having to go there. Its about intended usage. After an hour in mine its nice to hop in something with good manners that squirts away from a light. Track differnet story. Think he can get a 12 sec car without having to compromise.

gbayfisher

I'm going to look there, thanks for the help

Doom86

The forged bottom end won't be a complete waste you could always do something in the future with it.

Low end power won't be an issue unless you do something really wrong with a FI 383.

XR282HR with 1.6rr would peak around 5.5-6k and should pull just over 6k with good exhaust and compression. I bet with a good tune you could make it damn flat with FI.

Orr it sounds like you had a bit too much stall on that 383 being honest.

86White_T/A305

Orr's 383 hauled some serious butt lol no doubt. but not everyone is going to like such a setup.I dont see why that has to be such a big deal..I respect each build based on what is desired out of the motor.Heck..lots of guys take truck motors out and stick them into their cars for a damn good reason ..All im saying is that their isnt a right or wrong with building something that works well within a certain powerband..whether its built more on the rwtq or more rwhp. if its a well thought out combo..its going to perform regardless.Not everyone wants or needs a 6k+ high hp motor even if the costs to build are the same or just slightly off.Im not knocking your point of view,if he isnt going to be running the motor that hard so often..its more of a waste in my opinion.You can just as easily over build a motor aswell.

Anyways to the OP if ya can spring a lil more for the forged rotating assembly then go for it.During my build I just couldnt go for it at that time.Deciding on the power curve is where you have room to play.You can make a tpi pull hard upto 5k with some work done to it with plenty of torque..especially being a 383..but it will run out of steam fairly quick after that..but boy will you get upto speed in a smokey hurry on the street lol.You to do the induction in stages as mentioned before and save up for something better when funds permit...SR/MR/HSR etc if you want to shift the curve upwards.With a 383 you dont need to go crazy on a big cam,will you be running auto or t5 or t56?

gbayfisher

I'll be running a 700r4.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Yes, and WHAT? no really.....WHAT? HP doesn't kill parts?

OK, and after the first 500 feet? On the highway... Why is it that 9 second cars can melt the tires off them at the gate? They spin to 7500 or so and have plenty of low end. You've seen them launch. And no, it's not apples and oranges.


That's my problem, the definition of "wind it up".....6000 is not "winding it up" Camry's do it all day long. 7000,8000,8500, that is "winding it up" 6000-6300 isn't.

This concept of "a street car" (term I despise) can not run over 5500 RPM (a concept I despise) came from one thing. Inadequacies in product line from manufacturers of after market parts. Go look at some of the stories people are telling today, with a much broader choice of parts available, vs. the stories that were being told three years ago. How many people bought "the best part" only to upgrade to the new "best part" when they came out? All marketing. Manufacturers have changed their tune based on the products they now have available, and it falls more in line with what I'm saying.

What's changed?


I don't see how it's a compromise. As pointed out, the guy has a good set of heads, and a forged bottom end.....all to waste because of some inadequacies in an intake. I think that's a shame to let all that good stuff go to waste for basically no more money. 12.9 and 12.1 are a huge difference. They aren't both "12s".

GM engineers are able get power for LSX engines winding them just shy 6000 RPMs. I don't think anyone would argue they aren't streetable. (I hate that concept)

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/ho...|_Engine_|_ls3

Willing to put up with a very little lope, take that over 6000 easy.


A well thought out engine can do whatever you want it to do. Parts chosen by people who are clueless or picking cool parts based on internet input, will have deficiencies. With new cam profiles, you all know there's more people making cams than Comp right? (not you ron but all I see here is comp comp comp comp) Better Valve components and better fuel delivery tracts, there's no reason to have "deficiencies" if they really exist other than poor design.

GM Engineers can do it....so it can be done.

The real issue here is going to be the 700R. The reason people build engines with all the torque/power at the bottom is because the 700R has a VERY SHORT first and when it shifts there's that notorious second gear bog out of the gate. This is even more pronounced if you go anything over 3.55 gearing. That requires more bottom torque since it hits 2nd fast, and the drop is dramatic, but can be addressed to a large part with a good transmission guy and tweaking. I submit that a 4l60/80 wouldn't have the same problems. It's a trans issue, not an engine one.

Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me not to go as fast as you can within a budget, and with the right, well thought out design, there's nothing that can't be accomplished. Manners can be managed by thinking it through.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Naw, it really needed 4000-4200 to run best times at the track. But with nitrous 3600 was fine.

That car would have drove around fine with a 2200-2600 street stall perhaps but would have taken awhile to get into the cam's powerband. The car was on Kill mode at 3500-7000 rpm

A good converter makes the difference. Can have a streetable setup even tho you have alot of stall speed.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

You're spending money to go fast right?

I think I probably beat the horse to death.

My vote is to make power to 6000-6300. You will not be disappointed.

Do you have the first intake or is this a desire?

If it's a desire, why?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That has no relevance to a pushrod V8. Hondas rev to 9000 rpm with ohc engines...totally different.
And most 4's and 6's need to rev up to get into any type of power. The average passenger car spends tons of time at 3-4K rpm while my daily driver LS1 v8 will putz around getting up to speed rarely hitting 2K rpm. Now that i got a 3200 stall it will hit 3000 from converter slip but before that it would rarely need to get over 2K rpm to really get moving. Beauty of a V8 car

gbayfisher

No intake yet, it was a desire because I'd like to keep it looking as stock as possible and for the mid range torque it would give me. Not set on it yet. Do you mean peak power at 6-6300? I was also considering the super ram, and on a lesser note, the mini ram.
Your right in saying the 700r4 is an issue, killer drop out of first. With the 383, first could be a waste.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Yes, peak at 6000-6300.

I put a call into FIRST, i'll see what they say.

I LOVED my Super Ram. Great intake. I would have kept it but going to a 427 I thought it was a little too small and went to a mini ram.

I am working with a local trans "expert" here who says he can make my 700 hold first longer. I'm skeptical but we'll see what he does. I do know people who are putting the 200 first gear in the 700s but I have not heard the results of that.

Like I said, the other option is a 4L60/80 but that gets expensive.

The trans/converter will have more to do with how "peppy" it feels than anything else, if you pull tighter the right combination of parts, you won't have a problem. The stock Converter I BELIEVE is about 1800-2000. If you jump UP to high, it will feel sloppy at low RPMs.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

No relevance? OK...

Your LS 1, where does it stop making power?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

OK, So....I did the work here for you.

The FIRST INTAKE out of the box will support 6000-6200 RPMs no sweat.

If you want them to port it a little, no charge, it will support in excess of 6200 RPMs. The biggest problem is that many people SPEC THE WRONG CAM with these intakes which brings the power down. Probably done with all these urban legends in mind. IN FACT, First says that a BULK of their customers are high revving rock crawlers that need top end power and low end torque....go figure...

Nice to get information directly from the guys who have experience with the product other than guess...

Second, we discussed cam choices a bit and to put the power there something in the 224-230 intake and 232-236 exhaust. We also agreed on the 112-114 LSA for this.

The less duration you have, is going to move the power band down, which, I am not a fan. I'd be looking at 230/23X with over 500 lift if it were me. Your bottom end and heads will suppport that.

Your biggest problem is going to be the tune. If you have a good tuner, this is a no brainer. When you get into larger duration, the stock ECU has problems.

So, now we unlocked the mystery of why many people build these dumptruck engines that run out of gas way too early and here they are listed:

1. This mis conception that moving the power band up will sacrifice low end. Hogwash

2. Manufacturer marketing when they don't have products to support high RPM applications they simply create urban legends to support the inadequacies in their product line. These are so ingrained into the forum psyche, we can't let the demons go. RELEASE THEM!

3. First gear on a 700 is going to kill you unless you have all your torque/power down low

4. Converter slip and mis matched.

5. Tuning can be a bitch, but a good tuner can make it work. People can't tune it, so they say you don't need it. That simple

IMO this is why people build these **** poor combinations that don't perform worth a crap for the dollars spent.



So given those four conditions and based on my conversations and understandings....my .02 would be:

1. Go with the first, have them port it to 1.9 inches. Cost you nothing and gives you some headroom. Easily support 6300++

2. 230/23X cam to move the power up

3. 3000 ish converter...

4. Get a GOOD tuner or new ECU. Let me know I'd love to help you with a new ECU. I have a relatively inexpensive and solid product for this kind of application

5. Keep the rear end gear reasonably low if you're going to be going with the 700R.

Myths busted!

This is how you do it guys, it's about combinations from intake to rear end, not parts.

I bet that if the OP takes this route he'd crap in his pants with happiness every time he gets behind the wheel

When you replace the engine, you'll have to do work to the trans anyway, tell the builder (I like performabuilt) that you want first gear as long as possible.

cuisinartvette

With the right converter it can feel like most that have a much lower stall on the street til you put your foot in it.

Save up for a GM 6 spd auto just a matter of time before the aftermarket has em (think they already do), more popular they become then they will be price competitive. That would be a sweet setup.

You run that thing down the track yet John?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I never got the tune just right, as it says above, with the stock ECU. I had Greg from Blowerworks working on it...and he knows these ECUs so I gave up.

I didn't want to run it until I got the tune right. When I threw it on the dyno I was pig rich in the upper RPMs. Less than 10.X. So I pulled the stock ECU.

So right now I am in the misdt of installing the Motorvation ECU. Great Little product. Once I get that dialed in, Ill run. I have it pretty close tuned at this point, so I took it out to do a final install and clean up the wiring.

I have 2 kids that have no less than 4 games every weekend and I spend my summers at the beach. If I can get in 10 hours a month to work on/drive the car, it's a lot. This weekend is the last weekend of kids games so I hope to find the time.

I'm also having a custom housing made to place the ECU, that's holding me up to.

It's a process, and someday I'll be done. It's not like I haven't DRIVEN the car, I just haven't dialed it into my satisfaction to put it to the track. I'm not far away. I'm just cleaning up the wiring at this point. Ripping out the stock ECU and harness is a bitch with the engine in the car. I'm tired of soldering.

I also replaced the ignition with MSD... you can see pics on my facebook if you're interested.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Any info on those 6 speeds? I'd like to look at them.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Never had it on a dyno...peaks around 5500, shift by around 5800-6000. Starts to fall off after 5800.

Support as in what? Make peak at those rpms or hold power to those rpms? What cubic inches? Its probably going to hit peak in 5500-ish range on a 383 and hold power to 6200 if the cam is right. Thats what I would build with that intake.

Negative.. you shift the torque curve to higher rpms you take away that torque from the lower rpms. Thats how it works. Higher the torque rpm peak, the higher the hp rpm peak. This is not to say you will have no lowend. 300lbft will move a car extremely well, just not as well as 350lbft or 400lbft if you designed the top end and cam to perform in that region. A small 218 deg cam may make 400lbft by 2000 rpm with a 383 and peak in the 450lbft range by 3500. Hp all in by 5300 rpm.
Put in a 236 cam and you may have 350lbft by 2000 rpm, 400-450lbft at 4500 rpm and hp all in by 6300 rpm.
Shifting the curve. You start to sacrifice torque production down in the lower rpms due to more cam overlap to gain more in the higher rpms.
The only way to have top end and extreme low end is variable valve timing technology and/or variable intake runner geometry. Long runners that flow extremely well like the first can make low end and midrange torque and still support higher rpms since they can pass enough air flow. Still the runner length will control the peak hp production.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Continue to make power to 6000-6200 RPMs depending on the other factors, and ported can go to 6500 RPMs.


For the sake of argument, let's stipulate the above. To which I respond.......SO WHAT?

I still don't understand this overwhelming urge to build dumptruck engines. There's no reason for it. Why in the world would someone intentionally build a engine that craps out at 5500RPMs? There is no good reason for it other than wanting to throw money at something and get **** poor results for the dollar spent IF SPEED IS THE GOAL.

You said yourself a STOCK LS1 drops off at 5800 and with a little, very little, work can go to over 6000. Is GM wrong? Is the car not driveable? And no, it's not 2 different things. It's fuel, air, spark on a V8 pushrod motor.

OK, let me rephrase this....

Having all that power on the bottom is a waste of time unless you're towing lawn mowers. Sure, it feels good, snaps your head back, but when you're getting pissed on by a new Camry out of the factory after the first 200 feet, what have you proven. If this were a good thing we'd still be driving L98s, no need for the LTX or LSX engines. I guess they are all wrong....but I don't see people running out to build L98s. Feeling fast and being fast are 2 different things.

Why WOULDN'T you give up slightly on the bottom to take it to the top. The issue is how much do you need at the bottom? And the answer is just enough to get into your power band faster. Period. no matter where that power is.

2500-6300 is a great power band to be in. 1200-5000 isn't. DUMPTRUCK.

The cam controls where the peak is, not the runners. THAT was out of the mouth of the guys from FIRST. So it's not just me.

Tell me about forumla 1. They have massive HP, but little torque, yet run 200+MPH all day long. Once your moving, it's all about HP not torque.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

heres a nice First 383 build

http://www.precisionraceengines.com/...ne-430-hp.html

430hp by 5000 rpm with 210cc heads and a 224/236 cam. I'm looking for the dyno sheet but i can bet its holding onto power to 6000 rpm but peaked early like long tube runner TPI's always do. Theres a vid on youtube of this but i cant view it here at work. Most rpms I can see will be a 5500 rpm peak.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

You need just enough torque and power at the bottom to get you into your RPM range. Any more than that is a waste. So why put it there.

Reminds me of Spinal Tap, turn it up to 11...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Call your cam guys and ask them if runner length does not effect rpm of peak torque and power. I would have reused my TPI system on my 6500+rpm 383 if the runners supported the rpm.
Also ask guys in the Know if exhaust lengths dont effect peak power potential. You can tune intake and exhaust "runners" for power and rpm.

Thats the way some people are. They wont build a high rpm motor when they can get all their enjoyment out of a sub 6K motor. Thats too hard for you to understand so just leave it at that.

I agree, its not something I'd do either. I have more fun with more revs. More power all day long. GM isnt wrong for building the LS1...it does everything it was intended to do. All they had to do was change the intake manifold for the truck motors to limit rpms and make more torque/low rpm power. Everything else was kept the same just about, minor changes to heads/cam/iron block etc, but concept was same.

Also notice how GM made more cubic inches for more power as years went by to replace previous models. LS1 went to LS2. LS2 made more torque/power at similar rpm range due to cubes. GM did not just cam up the LS1 to gain more revs...its an emissions concern I'm sure as well as reliabilty concern. RPMs will kill parts. LS3 replaced that with even more cubes and power. Pride and Joy is the LS7 which actually could rev to 7K even tho its was done peaking in the low 6000 range.


I'm not saying 6000-62000 rpm shift point motors are pointless. I'm NOT saying theres a problem with a 5500 rpm peak shift by 6K motor. I'm saying in this FIRST TPI build, dont expect a hp peak at 6200 on a 383 and shift by 6500. A 5500 rpm peak hold peak power to 6000, shift by 6200 would be a great motor and exactly what i'd expect this motor to do.
It will deliver more torque peak than Stealth ram or miniram but not be too far off HP peak since it flows well. Its a great combination for a person building a sub 6500 rpm motor. If you wanted to peak above 6K or even 6.5K rpm, then you must go single plane EFI, stealth ram, or miniram.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

OK, here's the thing....

I understand that. What I don't understand is why someone would spend $XXXX and not get everything they can out of it...

That is my point. People come to forums for different reasons:

Sometimes it's validation "Hey look at me I bought cool parts"

Sometimes it's ego..

Sometimes it's ignorance

whatever the reason...is it not our responsibility as a community to help these people have all the information, and correct information, as they are making these decisions. Maybe they have been told one too many times that all they can get from a TPI motor is 5500 RPMs and they pick a cam that puts them there.

I am not so arrogant as to assume that they have been so informed that this isn't the case, which is why I ask questions as to what their goals are and why they think certain things. That's why people come here right? to learn things? If his goal is speed, a 5500 RPM dumptruck isn't going to fulfill his desire to the potential of dollars spent. If his goal is to FEEEL fast, rather than BE fast, that's another issue.

For example, if someone comes on here and says "I have a 383 and need a cam that takes me to 5500" I'll ask WHY? If the response is TPI engines don't go past that, is it not a good piece of information to have that this isn't the case? It's called EDUCATION. I am hoping that trying to dig a little deeper as to why someone wants something may uncover some facts they didn't know, and change their spec to like the outcome more. If a guy's answer is simply...because that's what I want...then so be it. As long as he has the facts.

As to the "call the cam guy" yes, I agree, intake type will effect where the power lies, that's why I said a few posts back, spec the cam with the intake... But the point is assuming that the intake is consistent, in this case a First, the only thing that will effect it is the cam.

People come to forums to learn, or to be validated, as I said above. Those who want to learn deserve that we, as a forum population, give them the best advice we know.

And to tell someone, in this example, that the only way to build this motor is to 5500 rpm, does he not deserve to hear the other options, and make the decision for himself? If he decides to go with the truck motor, great, I'm thrilled, as long as we did our job, as a community to present all options within the budget and desired outcome. Does that bother you? Is there a "forum line" that should be towed here? if so, let me know....If I'm bucking the trend, sorry, but validation I spoke about comes in two forms, the people receiving it and the ones giving it....

now who in their right mind can argue with any of that?

scamaro355

im with orr on this one... your cam does effect the rpm only is everything else you have can flow enough air to get to that rpm... runner length means alot... thats like saying you can put a 240 @.050 duration cam in a stock engine and it will pull to 7000 rpm... its not gonna happen...

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I didn't disagree on that point.

The assumption he didn't read in was that the intake was a CONSTANT, or the FIRST system....

When the intake is a constant, the only thing that effects operational range is a cam.

I don't think we were disagreeing on it, I was just assuming for the sake of conversation that the intake was consistent.

This thread, post 84:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...r-195-a-2.html

Note I address matching the intake to the cam. So there's no disagreement.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Now, as to address a PM I just received, as someone pointed out that the whole purpose of a torque converter with a high stall is to bring your engine into the operational range of the rest of the components.

So if you're going with say a 3000 stall, why in the world would you want an engine that gives up at lower RPMs.

Too much gear, and too much stall is a mis matched combination for a motor that gives up that soon.

Good point!

Doom86

But this one goes to 11.

Look at it like this. How many L98 TPI guys do you see posting, "How can I make more low end?". None? Can't find any either. They make at best 345lbs @ 3200.

Now if you take a 383, 230/236 dur @ .05, use a single plane (for extreme example), these 195's you are making MORE power at 2000RPM then the L98 is at it's PEAK of 3200.

Like I said before you will have to do something seriously wrong to a FI 383 to kill the bottom end.

gbayfisher

After 100+ posts, things start getting blurred! It seems like we are going in circles here, I appreciate all the help with the different ideas of how and when to make the power. Building an effecient motor is my main goal.

As mentioned by injectorsplus, the constant we are trying to work around at this point is the FIRST tpi intake and how many rpms it can ultimately support. His generous call confirms an earlier post of mine and orrs that it can support a more slightly aggresive cam into the 6000ish range. Based on my earlier posts of running a cam and using Comps numbers as a reference
option 1 .560/.570@ 224/230 on 114
option 2. .560/ .560 @ 230/236 on 114- if I stall higher with more gear
option 3. Xfi 268 spec of .570/.565@ 218/224 on 113

These three options (less number 3) can put me into a great long torque curve into the 6-6300k range which sounds good to me. I am waiting on a call back from Crower and Jones to see what they recommend.

Its almost time to move on to the tranny and tuning!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Cant argue with that. Well said

Kinda like how I have a bottom end and fuel system that could probably handle 1200 hp but I'm only pushing 850? Being an engineer, i like a factor of safety and room to grow down the road.
Agreed. I've seen way too many overgeared, overstalled, overcammed, underheaded motors out there sound like monsters but run pathetic times at the track. Guys that go huge on the cam with heads that wont support it wonder why they dont run the times some other guys do with milder setups. Combination has to be matched.

I understand this. Assuming using the same intake, try 3 different cams with durations from 212 to 236 deg. Power curve will move, however on a long runner intake, there will be a point where no more power can be made any higher in the rpm range no matter how big the cam. It will just hang on abit longer. So why overcam it if it doesnt need to be cammed so high? Thats just my arguement. A 383 is comfortable with 224 to 230 deg cams. Very driveable, streetable, good solid power to 6000 rpm depending on intake, with some 230's pulling to 6500+ depending on the lobes and valve events. The best engine combos have cams heads intakes matched to the rpm range desired. If you use LTR TPI or FIRST, i'd expect to see peak no higher than 5200-5500 but hold power if the cam/heads are large enough. Now sometimes you may turn high enough to see a "blip" on the dyno that may be peak hp but the intake really peaked earlier. So I'd cam it as such, which will make tuning it all easier and idle smoother in general.

Thats just my advice if I was to build a First TPI 383 with 195 heads. Feel free to try different things. Thats how we all learn.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

All that sounds great! I can't wiat to hear the results.

The guys at FIRST will open it up for no charge, take advantage...

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I agree there

First says they can make power to 6200++ with out a problem, and with some of their free clean up.

To the OP:

FIRST seems to be a good company to deal with and has a good product. Dealing with them as a potential VAR has been great.

I'll let you know if I set an account up with them, and if you do the tuning, let me know, give me a shot at it. If you like Performabuilt trans, I have a relationship with them too, let me know I'll help you out there. Can't control pricing but I'll get you some better attention.

Thanks!

gbayfisher

Excellent.. I will look at Performabuilt trans. Theres a guy around town through a friend that may be able do it for me.... more options are better.


Tuning will most likely be out of my scope for now, too little knowledge of it, and too little time to teach myself messing around, especially with a new build .
I will need someone to set up a good base, and once I'm am confident with the engine and my own ability i can start tweeking it.

Ken is def. a good guy. I hope he can get more of those things on the road, sounds like a pretty good median for a tpi style intake.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

GREAT! You have to be aware of your driveline for his build. The reason most people feel you can't get that "spunky" feel off the line in these cars is the converter is set too high, and the 700R dropping out of first. If you have a tall gear, high converter, and a short first, you will get that piggish feeling people refer to. This is why people perfer to build dumptruck engines because when the 700 drops out, and the gearing/converter is working against you, you need a lot of torque to pull out. HOWEVER, if you build the driveline appropriately to the engine, you will get great results.

I wish you good luck! I can't wait to hear the results.

I just spent over an hour on the phone with Ken. IP is now the newest reseller of FIRST intakes.

As a practice, I always try to find products that offer good performance, good value, and are not over distributed and provide top notch service.

FIRST fits the bill for me so I committed to them to sell and promote their products.

So I hope if you go FIRST you'll give me the opportunity to do it with you, I'll throw in free shipping to your door.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It is the best Value intake out there for these cars, especially with TPI intakes. For what you get, its hard to beat. HSR is the other alternative and I think its just a touch cheaper when you add it all up with throttle body.
I'm really surprised you dont see more FIRST intakes

gbayfisher

Congrats on becoming a new vendor! i would most certaintly give you the sale, let me know what your price will be once you figure it out, pm me if you need.

Me too, hopefully with your help I can make this intake work well.

gsf-87IROC

There's another option. When I was looking, I wanted something a bit bigger than the 224/230 cam I bought as i was shooting for a 6k rpm peak. After talking to a friend, i was afraid that the 230/236 was too big for my tastes. I emailed Lunati for their Voodoo cam line. They didn't have an off the shelf design, but I was looking for something like 227/234. They took FOREVER to get back to me and I had already gone with the 224/230 cam. They came back with the 227/234ish lobes using a custom grind mixing and matching lobes. So don't rule out a custom grind.

gbayfisher

No doubt, for sure and most likely going custom! Many refer to comp cam because its easy to get a hold of them, and do they do carry a
pretty good line of ready to go grinds. They also seem to be missing what may be my ideal cam but customized one that should work well. I am waiting on Crane, Jones and may just give Lunati a call.

How did you like the 224/ 230? What did engine did you have it in?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

A little info on the First. The intake manifold runner length is around 7.656". AFR 195 heads are about 5.333" intake port length. So that totals 12.989". With my highly modified SLP intake runners I left around 1/2" of runner at the point where they bolt to the head. The rest of the runner is siamesed. So now we are up to 13.489". This is very close to the runner length of an LS1 motor and the intent. I figure GM got it right on the LS1

The First runners are fairly long and I do not have a measurement. Maybe 6"? If so that puts you around 20" of runner. With the flow maybe around 5800 peak horsepower with good flowing heads, good camshaft and supporting mods. However you should also have a ton of torque as you are picking up the 2nd harmonic intake wave.

One more thing I did. On my motor I opened up the intake manifold where it meets the head to 2.2 CSA. What this does is get the flow to .55 Mach(614 fps) at that point. Your motor will very. Having the intake speed at or slightly below 614 fps is about ideal for the ram air effect velocity. It takes "power" to pull the air in and the faster you go up to 614fps the better off you are. Past that poing and you start loosing the benefit. My intake manifold inlet is 1.85" in diameter. I wanted to get some taper through the port. Just some tidbit of information to consider if you are doing some porting.

gsf-87IROC

I posted up my impressions of the combo midway through. It was the post that really heated up the badgering of 'truck engine builder mentality' midway through.

I like it. It feels good around town and has lots of grunt. Good fuel economy on the highway, 352 rwhp, but as someone pointed out, it runs out of steam around 5300 rpm I expect that a 227/234 cam may breath up to 5600-5700, but I have no data on that. I was targeting 6k rpm shift points. I had a 350 that I had to shift around 6500 and I didn't like it for around town driving so I wanted a bit more consrvative on this. I had a 211/219 Lingenfelter cam in a 350 and it was a hoot to drive on the street. I was going for that feel with this engine. My headers are also probably small ofr a 383. I'm running the old SLP tri-y's that I originally put on my 305. I haven't upgraded them. The 383 provides plenty of low end grunt with this combo and could probably stand to lose a little down low, but I don't think I'll be changing this out for a few hp. Its a hoot to drive around town. My car seldom sees the track and doesn't see 6k rpm very often.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Great info.

The FIRST runners are 1.7 (I believe) , so you're getting more surface area there, which will slow down the air a bit. I don't know the length off the top of my head.

What happens at .6 mach is air can not be compressed any more than it is, and the port locks up. That is why it's important to have enough CSA to support and control the port speed, bigger ports with more CSA regardless of flow, as you point out.

Good information!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats the big advantage of the first, its cast soo much bigger than TPI stuff from everyone else. You can port them out to get larger CSA's to match your heads and help support the higher rpms with more flow. Most aftermarket bases need cut/rewelded with injectors moved up higher to have a large enough cross section.