gbayfisher

lol, still haven't decided on the cam and intake..... I would prefer to overbuild than regrett that I didn't in the first place, this build probably wont stop where it is, I am preparing for the future, just in case!

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Perhaps a good idea would have been to consider the heads, cam, intake, compression all at the same time? Just thinkin' out loud...

gbayfisher

Well, nothings built yet so I can do what ever I want at this point. Sure the heads may be a bit big for a low rpm motor, but I'm sure it will still work well even if I stay on the mild side.
Thats why I'm here, looking for help and experiance, any info I can get to help with the final decision is appreciated!

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

OK first question is why do you want to limit the RPMs?

You haven't chosen a cam or intake, so why? I really don't understand this thinking by a lot of people. Daily Driver appliances red line at 6500-7K. Why limit these to 5.5K?

This seems to be a recurring theme here.

gbayfisher

At the moment, the main reasons for limiting rpm are; tpi set up, and I don't really want a rough idling car, and also have to consider emissions.

scamaro355

well im running the 200cc intake heads with the hotcam and the stealthram i have no complaints about bottom end.. its a tire melter..so dont be worried about the 195cc heads

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

what emissions considerations are there? It doesn't have to be a rough idle to spin up, there's ways to deal with that with the cam. A little lope isn't a bad thing.

And honestly, if you don't do a slightly aggressive cam, the intake and heads aren't going to do anything for you.

gbayfisher

I am not certain on emissions yet, but i do know of guys being pulled for visuals if the exhaust reaks when stopped at lights. i do plan on keeping egr,pump, canisters as stock so visuals won;t be much of an issue.
I do want some lope, just not radical, so long as it idles nice and pulls to around 6ish, i am happy. What wouuld you recommend for a cam set up than?

Thx

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

My advice on a cam is to call Bullet or Crower. They can be very specific in getting you what you need. IMO the best service and knowledge in the business. Their guys know what they are looking at, and don't just read charts. I find them to get the best results. We can come up with a cam profile, but I'm confident it would not be as accurate to your needs as these guys would get.

You will need a tune to get the idle right. If tuned correctly the idle won't be an issue. I'd shoot for a 6300 or so top. If not for the visual you can get rid of the air pump, that won't make a difference.

gbayfisher

That sounds cool.

LS4GXP

iTrader: (2)

did you buy the motor yet? if not screw everything and get a 400+sbc wish i did

gbayfisher

I have been researching intakes last couple days. looking at pros and cons for the variety available, including porting the factory unit.
I looked into the FIRST fuel injection Tpi unit as i remembered them from way back, I know they had a few issues in the day but they seem to be resolved now with the current owner Ken.

I know how well the Super and Stealth Ram along with the miniram work, they all seem to have their sweet spot. After looking and reading about results with the first unit, I think I want one since it seems to fit exactly what I want out of my motor. Its a little hard to find info on these things though, but almost all that own one seem to love it. The intake comes with excellent potential out of the box, yet leaves alot of room to grow if and when needed.
I hope someone with some hands on experiance can chime in and let me know how it works for them. I have little doubt this thing can flow to support well over 400hp.
My pros to this intake are;
-excellent overall power potential
-excellent mid range torque
-capable of supporting higher rpms
-relative ease of installation
-keeps the TPI look that I want
-will allow me to go with a bigger cam if i choose, while maintaining the orginal look

No cons yet!
Let me know if there is a problem with this intake!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I like the First... its a good deal for the dollar when you think about it. Manifold plenum and runners with TB for 1000 bucks last i checked? thats pretty good.
Considering TPI base was 400, TB was 250, runners were 400 or 250-300 if you got SLP's, and plenum ported is around 50-100 bucks from someone else. It all adds up and doesnt flow as good as the FIRST super large base/runners.

1989GTATransAm uses the first base on his 369 motor that made 535hp on engine dyno with box stock victor jr intake. First flowed more than that intake so it shouldnt be a restriction. He custom fit siamesed runners to it so its not the same as box stock FIRST.

The runners are still same length as a TPI setup or just about that...so they dont really extend the rpm range that much but flow much more so you can make more hp in the rpm range. You dont really want to go much bigger on the cam duration wise. IF you do the intake will still peak early in the lower 5000 rpm range but hold that power to 6000+ rpm if the duration is high enough. The intake is just a restriction at that point but a good flat powerband is great for road race kinda applications so you can hang onto a gear longer. My 383 HSR was like that..peaked at 6200 or so and held all the way to shift by 6600-6800. It was a blast.

I havent seen many FIRST builds so I dont know what most builds would do power-wise. I'd love to try one on my 401

gbayfisher

I like the sound of that, not looking to build power above 5,500k but maintaining it into a shift would be nice.
I talked to Ken today, and he seems like a stand up guy willing to back his product. He has been working deligently on fine tuning the small details of the intake and perfecting the casting, there were some issues on the early builds before he took over but they seem to be rectified now.
For $950, I think the pricing is very fair and inline with the others. i would rather pay 950 for this one than mess around trying to hog out a tpi and not get close to the same results. I believe his intake has supported upto 625hp

Doom86

Why don't more of you TPI guys use LT1 intakes?

The LT1 intake swap looks like a simple enough swap that will support revs and cost very little by comparison to the aftermarket TPI.

gbayfisher

I think alot of tpi guys just love the look of the engine to be honest!

Cost wise, I dont know what a complete Lt1 intake goes for, but I would guess 2-400 for the complete set up, factor in one mistake on the base and your getting close to the cost of a proven design.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Why don't more of you TPI guys use LT1 intakes?"

One would need to find a competent person who can drill out the intake manifold and do the machine work so that a distributor will fit.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I did a LT1 conversion but switch to HSR last minute. I was able to order a machined spacer for the distributor that was sold on here. They need to be at an angle and the placement has to be pretty much perfect or you will eat dizzy gears. The conversion was abit of a PITA but I got thru it. I didnt weld up the manifold to attach the dizzy spacer, nor did I weld to cover up the water jacket ports so it would seal on a SBC head. I used epoxy clay that sets very hard...fairly strong stuff but its brittle. I didnt trust using it on a motor that sees heat cycles so I sold it off to a guy who has been using it successfully on a pretty nasty 383. So it worked for him but dont know if he made changes.

The effort in doing the LT1 conversion to me doesnt justify going HSR or single plane EFI

jamieschott

iTrader: (2)

Too bad the timing of this wasnt a bit closer to March - April. I would have a black powder coated FIRST available for sale. I have one that has about 2000 miles on it sitting on top of a Blueprint 383 motor. The motor that I have was dynoed by Blueprint with a 750 cfm Holley carb to 405 HP @ 5500 and 440 TQ @4500. I never got it completely tuned before I deployed this past March to Iraq. However, I did get it dynoed at 275 HP @ 4500, 364 TQ @ 3400 with a pig rich condition @4400 and above. I had planned to get it dyno tuned before I deployed but never did.

It will definitely shred some tires as it currently runs. I have decided to part ways with the FIRST for a HSR. Nothing against the FIRST. I have no complaints against the intake nor do I have any against Ken as he has been very helpful anytime that I have asked for help from him.

Any thoughts on a fair asking price for a powder coated FIRST with slight usage?

gbayfisher

Talked to comp cams yesterday, because they are the easiest to get a hold of.
I had them work out a cam for me. He'd like to do a custom, small base circle cam,
xfi series type with .560/.570 224/230 on 114. That is based on my stock gear and a 2200 stall. If I bump up to 3.42 gear and 2800 stall he would like to go less (.560 on exhaust and bump the dur to 236/242 on 114. Both these are getting me into the 5800-6200 rpm range. I am thinking I like the idea as mentioned by a few here of not limiting my rpm.
I have a set of 1.65 rockers I can use which would bump the lift up a tad, or I'll buy new ones>
At the moment, I am not going to make a decision unitl I talk to Mike Jones and Crower, I have to see what they say. Will the later help without $ in their pocket or will they want a compitment first? What company name does Jones work under at the moment, I had trouble finding a web page that worked whe googling.

gbayfisher

Too bad on the timing, I would like to get mine buttoned up by jan and tuned/running before spring. I sdont hink it be hard to sell a used FIRST. They are about $1100 painted new I think, I would say about $800?

gsf-87IROC

I built a 383 last year.

Specs...

Summit 383 Block
Scat Cast Crank
5.7" Scat Rods
10.3:1 Speed Pro Hypereutectics
AFR 190 Heads
224/230 Comp XE Cam on 113 LSA I believe.
Holley Stealth Ram
MAF Induction

Out of the box with some mild tuning I was at 352 hp to the ground. Thats about 420 at the flywheel.

Engine is very mild and fun to drive. Great torque curve.

I'd love to have a set of newer AFR 195s for a 383. It would be a great combo....but my 190s are about 13 yrs old and I'm not buying new for the 10 hp I'd gain.

The hyper pistons were ****. I wouldn't buy Speed Pro's again unless I was on a budget. Be sure to check all clearances...even crank to pistons. I had to grind ont he pistons after I was on final assy due to the crappy casting quality. Keith Blacks are good, but I'd probably buck up and go forged if I had it to do over.

gsf-87IROC

I have some video of it idling somewhere. It has a really mild 750 rpm idle. remember, a 383 will idle better with a larger cam than a 350 will. If you put a cam in with a 21X/21Xish duration...its going to be a stump puller. I turn mine to 6k or 6200.

Doom86

You have the same cam I'm putting in my 305. Mine is for racing though, not hauling.

More RPM would be much more HP. I'm sure it is fun to drive but I like to drive when I drive and have fun when I race.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

He is his own company. www.jonescams.com.

For a nasty 6400-6500 rpm peak and probably shift by 7000 rpm 383 at 11 to 1 compression with a ported Stealth Ram, AFR 195's, 3600 stall/3.42 gear (nitrous gearing) , try this grind he recommended me. 240/243 on a 108lsa. I think it was lobes HR75375/HR76370...the site lists them as 242/245 but he told me it would be 240/243. .600" lift .592" exhaust. Bad *** cam. Kowboy59 was running a similar grind on a 383HSR that ran low low 11's on motor at 120mph+

If being all motor and no plans to spray it, and a 383 with HSR, I'd put a 3600 stall behind that with 3.73 gears in a heartbeat. 2800 is way too mild for that cam and a 383. Peak torque will be closer to 4500 on that setup, so 3600 would compliment it well.

My 230 cam peaked in 6200 range with peak torque flat in the 4000-4500 range. 3600 stall gave great performance. EASY 1.55 60's without much effort on suspension tuning and undergeared. Slightly old slicks too so they werent bitting as good as they did new.

I would not try that 236/242 cam on a FIRST intake, i think its a touch big. That cam will pull up in the 6500 rpm range and hold on alittle ways after.

The 224 is a good grind for a TPI based or superram based system. 230 on the intake is a good compromise for a higher compression superam/FIRST type system, since you need to lower the DCR to get it to work on pump gas. 230 on the intake with the proper lobe will do 6000-6400 rpms peaks depending on the cam lift, intake and heads. All varies tho as I"ve seen a huge .640" lift hydraulic roller 246 duration cam peak at roughly 6200 rpm before having some valve float problems by 6400. If you dont control the lobes and dont have the intake to support the rpms, you wont make power up top.

gbayfisher

I am looking to get the engine buttoned up for Jan, and in the car and tuned I hope by late winter. i would assume your 275hp was at the wheels, too bad you didn't finish fully tuning the engine with that intake!

I believe they go for about $1100 with paint, I would think yours should be worth $7-800 slightly used? Anything automotive or recreational in nature sell for alot more in Ontario, so its hard to put a price on things.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

That's done by 5300 RPMs....why? Why are people so hesitent to spinning their engine up? RPM=HP the faster you spin it the more power you make. 6500 RPM is nothing a stock small block can't handle especially with today's quality after market parts. IDK, I'm at a loss...why?

What happened in the market that people start believing that a car should top out at 5300-5700? Where did this come from?

IDK, just not an engine I'd enjoy driving.

Doom86

Damn that dyno graph reminds of Fast355's 305 that's peaking at 6,300RPM. More RPM = More HP.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I like the look of that one right there. Seems 6300 and the power wasn't falling off too dramatically. It was just flattening out.

And that is with a 305, the other engine is a 350....

I just don't understand the predisposition for everyone to build dump truck engines.

Guys, these things can spin. The mechanical limitations are the valve train, and today a nice roller setup can spin to 6500-7000 effortlessly. New valve spring design can also aid in controlling the valves.

gbayfisher

I'm confused now Gonna call my builder and look at option 2!

Anyway, I have really enjoyed discussing these options. You folks are great. The input and debate is always productive, and I hope it continues.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

whats there to be confused about?

you wanted a 12 second car, and wanted to keep TPI since you like that intake. TPI will get you 12's.

You dont need to turn 7K rpm for a 12 second car. You cant turn 7K with a LTR TPI setup.

Keep it simple, try to build the 383 if you can afford it. use the 195 AFR's since you have them already. Use big tube runner/aftermarket base or FIRST TPI and mild cam like 268 XFI or the custom grind 224/230 XFI cam they gave you.

It will compliment the intake well, it will compliment the AFR heads well, and be easy to tune with a MAF setup.

It will get you mid low 12's with out too much effort.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

ok, here's my confusion.

There is no cost difference between the parts required to go 5300 and 6300.

It's just the parts you select.

So, bottom line is for the same money, why wouldn't you want to go faster? I've never heard anyone say "I want to spend $XXXX and not go as fast as I can for that money." That is just stupid. I have seen people however, that took advice from forums and pick cool parts over right parts, and get crappy results and then rationalize in this manner.

I submit that if you're going for aftermarket base/runner you can do better than 5300 RPMs and you can run better times and make more power by choosing a cam that moves the power band up, and spinning the engine faster.

To me, your description sounds like a rationalization of poorly chosen parts rendering **** poor results, but that's just me....I'm critical that way....

gsf-87IROC

Its fun to drive. I did the 7000 rpm shift point on 2 enginges that didn't live. Its a cruiser, not a racer. I went for fun to drive rather than for some number on a worthless sheet of paper. Shoot me. It sounds mean, it idles nice, it pulls nice, and it gets 24 mpg on the interstate currently running open loop. I'm just too old to care about bragging rights I guess.

gsf-87IROC

You want a cookie?

I was merely posting up my combination. I think I could have gone a bit bigger cam. If I had it to do over again, I'd have bumped up a size....something like 227/234 custom grind...but I doubt I tear it back open to get anymore hp. I didn't build the engine to please others....I built it to please my tastes.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I think we have a misunderstanding.

I'm not saying shift at 7000

I am saying shift at 4300-5000 and up and have the power fall off somewhere in the 6300 area. Moving the power up a bit and keeping it there.

7000 is the physical limitation of a roller valve train that I assume most of us have in these cars.

If the car operates the way YOU are happy with it, that's great!

But that's not for everyone. It's not about bragging rights, it's about going faster. If the goal is to go faster, I'm just saying the more effective way to reach that goal is to move the operational range of the engine higher.

It is built to your taste, and that is what is important.

As far as a worthless sheet of paper, you're the one that posted the dyno sheet....

Doom86

Great we all have different wants and mine don't agree with yours. Don't let it get you bent out of shape.

My point may have been missed and that is look what some RPM does, it makes a ported stock headed 305 TPI edge out a 383 HSR with a AFR heads. Imagine what your 383 would do built for that RPM. +500hp almost certainly at the crank.

This guy is wanting a fully forged bottom end 383 why not use it?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Excellent points.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You guys are missing the point. IF a guy is content and happy with 12 second combos then let him build a 12 second combo.

The RIGHT parts for a 12 second combo does not mean they are WRONG parts because he aint spinning 6500+ rpm.

I agree cost is no different really to pick different parts to pull more rpm and make more power, but thats not for everyone. SOme guys like a mild combo. My neighbor is VERY content with his ZZ4 5500 rpm 350hp crate motor. I being 30 years younger than him am NOT. Different stokes for different folks.

Again, if you build a BOLT ON aftermarket TPI setup, you will NOT be turning more than 5500 rpm. The runner length just wont allow it. Get a cam to work in that range or else you are wasting your time.

Not everyone wants 19 deg of overlap on a cam at idle just to turn 6500 rpm... Some like a very driveable car and a big cammed 6500+ rpm motor isnt really that docile. Its not for everyone.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

There's a huge diference between 12.9 and 12.4 and 12.1. I'm saying he can get closer to 12.1 than 12.9 for no more money. Is that not better?

I didn't say spin it to 6500+ I said have it fall off about 6000-6500, not 5300-5700 pick up that extra 500-1000 RPMs, why not? There's no reason not to.

My reference to 7000 or 6500 is that mechanically the parts will support it, that there is no mechanical limitation.

.

Some people are willing to settle. I think you're under the impression to put the power band up in the 6300 range before it falls off you have to trade something off, like idle, not the case. YES in the day with carbs, that may have been true because you had to depend on engine vacuum to pull fuel, with TPI that goes away. It's not the same anymore.


I don't think that's the case. My Super Ram took me further than that. Past 6000.

That's more in the tune than anything else. You can have a car that is relatively docile with today's modern cam profiles and valve train setups. Put lift to .600, add a little duration. Why not? The fuel can be controlled in the tune. Get a little more lobe separation, that smooths it out a bit.

Yes, there will be a bit of a lope, but heck, it's a performance build. If you want an old lady car you're in the wrong business. That's not what we do here.

The guy has a good set of heads, he has a forged bottom end, and he'd going to kill all that by limiting the RPM range to sub 6000? That's insane in my opinion.

I think a typical build can take the power curve to just over 6000, still be docile enough for the street, and at the end of the day, have a more fun car. Nothing like being on the highway and getting smoked by a Camry because you're 1000 RPMs off your peak. Raise that peak 1000 and put the camry in the review mirror.

I just put a miniram on my cousin's car. He got in the car and said "I just spent $1000 for nothing". Basically, the car FELT the same around town.

THEN, he went on the highway. Night and day. From 60 up it was a different car. Point is all this talk about trading off bottom for top or top for mid, it's all smoke and mirrors. A well thought out combination of parts can make a car that is easy to drive and can be fast.

Explain me this, my CTS has a redline of 7000 RPM from the factory. That is extremely docile. It can be done. But it can't be done if parts choices are being made on criteria that is inconsistent with good sense.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Superram is NOT long tube runner TPI like FIRST.

Redline and useable power band are 2 different things

Theres only so much you can do with 80's software with these cars. A big cam can not always be tuned to be as smooth as something alot smaller. But for the most part, you can make a big cam streetable enough.



Yeah, but either of those times can be done with a TPI based 5500 rpm powerband. If TPI is the top end, just port it to flow more and run more cubes. You will make plenty of useable power in the 2500-5500 range shift in the high 5000's. I'm saying it can be done.


If he goes HSR/miniram/etc then yes, cam it up abit more and pull more rpm. You'll be faster for no cost difference.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I'll just stipulate some of the rest as a sake of saving time.

If this is the case, then perhaps a long runner tube intake is the wrong intake for the combination. Get a different intake. Otherwise what's the point of all that other stuff? Bragging rights?

I don't see the point in having a good set of heads and forged bottom, then putting a shitty intake on the top of it.

I don't necessarily agree that it's going be an issue, I think some of the long runner aftermarkets like the FIRST or ASM whatever could support it, but I digress.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Welcome to TPI world

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

It's not the world of TPI, it's the world of insanity.

Those results can be gotten a lot cheaper. No need to get nice shiny parts you can brag about to your friends, just to run like a pig with TPI.

Agian, that's assuming the after market TPI systems don't run to 6000+, I'm not so sure that's the case.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Bigger tubes of same length still restrict rpm range. Runner length determines the power peak potential based on pressure wave tuning harmonics. The increased flow can help alittle bit but mostly length that changes powerband.

You can have a TPI setup hold onto power to 6000 rpm but still peaks in the 5200 range. Thats a typical big cammed TPI build. If you did an intake swap on that, you'd see big power gains since it can breath above 5200 with a short runner intake.

I just dont know if that gives you more of an advantage over a smaller cam designed to work in that 0-5500 rpm band. You will give up some lower end torque with the big cam just to hold onto power longer in the rpm range with TPI. Not sure what the average power comes out to be, so not sure what combo would run faster.

Other than heavily siamesing TPI or using Superam, those are your only options for a smog legal shorte runner intake. Miniram and HSR dont have smog certifications but miniram now has an EGR kit that can be adapted to it. Some states allow that

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I know....that's the rumor. I don't believe it until I see it..

That being said, the smart thing to do is trash that intake. I don't see a lot of TPI stuff in high performance space and although I understand their limitations, I don't know their nuance.

Typically the first thing to go on an L98 is the intake.

The aftermarket ones do improve the RPM range, I just can't say from personal experience that it's XXXX RPM.

SO..anyway, probably better off getting rid of the intatke in favor of something that will free up the top end.

Spinning the motor will make for a better performing motor all the way around. It's not a dumptruck.

White'89

iTrader: (8)

I would go with the 383 and ported TPI setup and base your cam off atilla's build in his sticky thread...that was a bad $#!@ motor.

As for a great alternative from what everyone else already has, I have had this intake on my mind for quite some time now.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-29135/

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

It's nice that manufacturers are making intakes now with bungs already in it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its not a rumor, its fact. Just search for build threads and see the numbers...you dont see alot of fast TPI cars for a reason...Thats why I didnt build one but almost did.

On a 350 its common to see 5200-5500 rpm peaks in the right combo and can hold to 5500-5800 fairly well with the right cam. But a short runner intake on even a stock L98 will shift the rpm range almost 1000 rpm. My stock TPI car ran best with 4800 rpm shift. My HSR car ran best around 5500. A good 700 rpm range increase. Peak moved from 4400 or so rpm to 5000-5200, as it was pretty flat there.

gbayfisher

Looking back at Atillas best builds in post 6, how does one explain a extrude honed tpi pulling a 383 up to a fairly flat top end? I like the chart on that engine, just dont know if I can replicate it?
Post 7 with the mini ram combo is awesome however, and dowright scary!

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...c-heads-5.html

Atilla is a fraud. Who knows where his information really came from and what was true.