Fallen2603

I couldn't agree with you more, man. And, welcome to my thread.

Actually, there are some who have supercharged the 3800 V6 4th-Gen F-body. It's an option for you.

Sorry if I'm repeating something you already know.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I think maybe you are underestimating the usefulness of a cheap eBay turbo.

You can crunch numbers and blast efficiencies of this and that, but the real world results don't lie. I've read too many articles in Car Craft the last few years of guys putting serious power down with a cheap, chinese eBay turbo. I have not seen anyone complaining about failures or anything else, for that matter.

For myself, the turbo I am looking at is supposed to support over 500 HP on a Grand National setup, and its about 540 bucks. There are much cheaper ones out there, but that one is setup as a direct bolt on to my OEM Grand National headers that I got last year.

Yeah, it would be great if I had 2 grand to spend on a great turbo, but I'm not doing it until I'm rich. Until then, I can get four of these hahahhahah.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/190475619411...WAX:IT&vxp=mtr

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Also, I forgot to mention, the best supercharger setup I ever helped a guy run was the old Vortec gear charger setup. We inter-cooled it just like a turbo on a 5.0 mustang.

I bet you could get those used now, as long as they have been around.

Fallen2603

KrisW,

Oh, I don't deny that some have made some impressive numbers with eBay turbo's, and that they're happy with the results.

The complaints I have about them are their long-term investment. Some think that since they're so cheap, that it's okay to just keep replacing them. I've seen a few eBay turbochargers that, after a few thousand miles of use, have excessive shaft play.

Personally, if I lay money down on something, I don't want to have to keep replacing it over and over.

Also, the turbocharger I'm looking at is $800, not $2,000. Your turbocharger could possibly work in my application, but I'd rather go with a turbo that has had great success in applications much more similar to mine.

Also, some have used centrifugal superchargers on Ecotecs, mostly the Solstice/Sky crowd. That option looks more expensive than either option I've got on my plate without any real advantages. If I were running a V8, I'd consider a centrifugal supercharger more strongly.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I feel the same way about application; I was just throwing my example out there to show what is available for the price.

After I'm rich I'll step up to a nice ball bearing turbonetics piece, hahahhah.

The vortech that I helped assemble was not centrifugal. They called it a gear charger and it really looked more like an industrial oil pump with two big gears that squeezed the air. It sure did work, I'll say that much! I knew guys that ran the Paxton centrifugal, and I couldn't figure out how it was any better than a turbo. It looked like a turbo compressor with a belt drive instead of a turbine.

Jeffs82TA

iTrader: (1)

California car so not many options for me. I have a 90 vette to so thats the car I use when I want muscle. Keep up the good work though man! I love different unique swaps most are played out now.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Plenty of options for you out in CA. You can legally transplant the whole setup from an LS1 car, as long as the PCM and emissions are also transferred. The smog referee will put a sticker on there for the test guys to verify after you're done.

You can also L98 it, or even turbo Buick it with a similar setup to the 89 TTA. The rule for an 82, is that you can run any factory engine/trans setup that was available from 82-02 Firebird.

That's still a wide range! Don't give up!

Y_B_A_FOOL

The gen V m90s were not on the thunderbirds, they had a crap gen III found in most GTP. What was special about the last two years of the thunderbirds is that the rotors were coated in epoxy resin to prevent heat. That blower is poop IMOP. The later model GTPs had the gen V blowers on the 3800sc gen III. I know the gen V blowers are very good for what they are and the price they can be purchased for.

List of cars with Heatons on them http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/blower-eaton-data.htm

The thing is non of the Cobalt guys have run the gen V m90, yet. Someone has run the Magnuson mp90 and made decent power.

Build: http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/advan...harger-234535/

Results: http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/dyno-...t-deux-242862/

I'd imagine a ported gen V m90 could match if not out perform the mp90 and it would be a quite cheaper than the TVS 1320... Speaking of the TVS blowers, someone is swapping a TVS 1900 into their Cobalt. Though, a twin screw could make even more power...

Off the topic of superchargers lol From what I've read, the Cobalts make a lot more power after a P&P job... But I think you already have a built head? And have you ever thought of using the supercharged cobalt intake? It has those fancy water to air intercooler built into them and they have a low pressure drop. Maybe you can fab a TB onto it and bam! Less charge pipping lol

Now I'm just rambling I've just been spending too much time on the Cobalt board... Still hoping that you will keep the compound charging idea on the table!!!

Here is a pic of the IC vent thing in the intake...

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

GM did Supercharge the (RWD) 3800, in Australia.

Fallen2603

KrisW,

We'll all have CBB turbos with billet, gold-pressed unobtainium compressor and turbine wheels when we're RICH!

Hmmm...every time I search for a Vortech Gearcharger, it shows me a centrifugal supercharger. Any info you could show?

Y_B_A_FOOL,

That's a pretty cool source you have there, but it is inaccurate. It only shows the Ford Thunderbird Super Coupe being made from 1989-1993 with the Gen III M90 supercharger. This I agree with. However, the Super Coupe was also made in '94 and '95, and these last two years did have the Generation V M90 supercharger.

I had already stumbled upon the Magnuson MP90 supercharger swapped Cobalt.

I'm not absolutely sure the P&P'ed Gen V M90 would make the power numbers I'm looking for, but I'm pretty sure. Part of me wants to do it to break new ground, so it might happen. No way to tell, yet. The TVS would definitely blow it away, though.

I've got one somewhat built cylinder-head, with only better springs and LSJ valves, and no P&P work, but I'll be picking up a better one this weekend. This one, P&P work with 1mm over-sized stainless valves. I'll just swap the stronger valvesprings from the cylinder-head I already have, and BAM!

Personally, and I don't think I'm the only one, I believe that the laminova-core heat-exchanger found on the LSJ becomes a massive restriction to air flow after a little more than stock is shoved through it. It's what I've got on my Cobalt SS Supercharged, and, while I think it's a great system, I don't believe it was really meant to flow more air than stock. Yeah, people have shoved a lot more air through it, but it doesn't seem to like it.

Twin-charging could still happen. Probably when I'm FILTHY RICH!

Six_Shooter,

They always get the really good toys everywhere else but here!

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

My mistake; the only thing coming into my head was the gear drive hahahahha. Sorry for that.

Fallen2603

Ah, a gear-driven centrifugal supercharger makes sense. I've seen a couple of these. Not sure the gear-drive is better than the belt, but I guess it is one less thing to go wrong...more often.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Its still belt driven with a ribbed pulley. It just has a gear reduction case off of the belt drive. I'm no expert, but I can tell you from first hand experience how reliable and powerful it was.

Fallen2603

KrisW,

I don't doubt you at all, man. There's a good reason centrifugal superchargers are so successful. I feel they're more at home on a larger displacement motor, though. They seem to be high-end power-makers, for the most part.

CanadianCamaro

Hey just came across this thread! Looks like a cool swap, with a lot of work. Good luck!

Fallen2603

CanadianCamaro,

Welcome! Yup, good times with all my work.

pault850

any new info?

Fallen2603

Unfortunately, no. Money has been really tight for me since late-July, and $700 worth of textbooks did nothing to help that. LOL!

I do have the materials for making the mount-bar, but I don't have the money to have the local shop weld it up, yet. I'm hoping my next G.I. Bill payment and pay from my tutoring job will put me back in the black by the middle of next month.

I did manage to find a CNC P&P'ed cylinder head with stainless 1mm oversized valves, so that should help out quite a bit.

brando54009

damn too bad u live so far or i would just weld it up for ya, that and i just moved so nothin's setup yet

Fallen2603

brando54009,

Thanks for the thought, man!

Eh, the design is fairly simple. I'd be shocked if it took someone who knew what they were doing more than half a day of work to cut/weld it up.

I just keep kicking myself for not learning how to weld...

It'll get done. Hopefully, sooner than later. LOL!

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Learning how to weld is the fun part! Buying a good welder hurts quite a bit tho lol. For how much I've used my mig, I should have just bought a harbor freight buzz box, but I don't think i'll ever regret buying a miller.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I bought a discounted Hobart 187 (same company as Miller at the very top) and its great. The problem with the harbor freight buzz box is that it can't do everything that a car might need. Just a tad bigger, and you can get it done.

Life without a MIG sucks hahahhaha.

Fallen2603

Something like that is definitely on my list.

diablizzard

iTrader: (8)

the harbor freight ones don't feed consistently. They also can't penetrate the slightly thicker metals. This was a borrowed one. I haven't invested in a welder of my own yet, but I'm going to spend the money on it.

Fallen2603

Hmmm...I'm pretty sure I'd need good penetration. That's what she said...

I probably went way overkill on the metal for the mount bar. I got 1/4" thick wall 1-1/2" steel box-tubing for the main piece with 1/4" thick wall round tubing to house the polyurethane bushings I got.

I could probably get the same exact thing, in aluminum, and it would still be fine for what it needs to do, but this will be the prototype.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

Ha Gigiddy

Fallen2603

Someone caught me!

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

About the cheapest you can get a quality welder, though something with 130A+ would be nicer, this will get everything done though.

http://www.wttool.com/index/page/pro..._shopping=true

lunati397

eastwood is cheap and they are actually decent but if you are ready to buy and have 940 I got my miller 211 drop shiped to my house for that and I love that thing got some angle iron built a cart and it gets used daily the plasma is another fun tool that get alot of use

Fallen2603

I'm not going to be able to pay $940 for a welder, as much as I'd like to. The local welding shop should be able to cut up the metal and weld up the mounting bar for less than $100. Someday, when I don't have school and work, I'll get my fabrication on and learn to weld.

lunati397

when you do pay the money and get a miller or lincoln but the miller with autoset feature does all the teaching for you and takes all the guess work out

Fallen2603

That feature sounds like a god-send for a newb like me. Thanks for the advice, man!

project89

iTrader: (1)

fallen pick up one of the cheap 89/99$ chicago electric flux core machines off ebay , or the cheap 99$ flux core machine from harbor frieght.

its great for small lil jobs and u can start to learn how to weld with it.

i built my entire turbo setup on the iroc with mine cause i was to lazy to pick up a bottle of gas for my real mig or tig welder lol

Fallen2603

Even that is more money than my pathetic budget can afford.

I may have to throw on my fish-nets and mini-skirt to do some morally dubious street-corner curb-side acts to help my funds. LOL!

lunati397

cheapest welder is a car battery and a coat hanger DONT laugh it works looks like **** but will get you home in a emergency .....everyone thinks in their mind where they have a battery and is already taking the wifes cloths off a hanger LOL

bottledbird68

In for updates. I'm interested.

Reading this too has my wheels turning. My 87 bird needs a new drivetrain. I have a wrx 5 speed spare trans sitting in the garage and some other left over bits from my fiancés wrx hanging around. All I'd need is a motor. Would be cheaper than a 5.3, all the car accessories, car intake, t56 and such. Hmmmmm....
Subaru powered third gen? Tempting.

project89

iTrader: (1)

just keep ur eye on ebay i picked up my 90 am flux machine for 55 or 65 with free shipping , even if u have to save for a week or 2 to get one the money u save in the long run is well worth it , after u weld a few brackets or ex pipes together it more then pays fo ri tself

Jeffs82TA

iTrader: (1)

I mentioned the GrandNationalized because I have a 97 camaro with a 3.8 not a 82 trans am anymore. So limited in that aspect and no LS1 since I am not a big fan of them.

Thats why I said a GN/TTA motor would have been a hit in the 4th gen but probably would have killed sales of the LT1 in a bad way.

Fallen2603

lunati397,

Whoops, sorry, I laughed. I could see where it would work, but I'll shy away from that method for now.

bottledbird68,

I think a Subaru powered 3rd-Gen would be pretty cool. If you find a motor to measure, shoot me the width of the motor, and I'll tell you if it will fit between the sub-frame rails. Would you try and make it AWD, too? That would be TONS of fabrication, and would probably end up being a huge chunk of coin. Even RWD won't be cheap, if it fits.

project89,

That's what I've been doing.

Jeffs82TA,

Eh, the LT1 would've still sold better just because a lot of people think a car has to have a V8 to be fast. A 4th-gen GN/TTA would have been awesome...

bottledbird68

I appreciate the offer. I'm cool though. My fiancé has a wrx I can grab whatever I need and I have an 87 bird sitting here too. My only real expense would be if I can find a good deal on a motor. I already have a trans I can use sitting at the shop.
I'd just stick with rwd. It's easy to convert the Subaru trans to read wheel duty only. Just need to weld up the center diff.
It's actually very tempting if I can get the right deal on a motor. I know her wrx weighs in at almost 3300 lbs from what I've read. Comparing weights between a small block/700r4 the bird currently has to a wrx motor/5 speed I'd be shaving about 300 lbs. Ditch the ac and some other odds and ends and I bet I can get it under 3,000 fairly easily just like you're thinking.
I already have my v8 monster project I'm putting together. My third gen has always been my handling car. This sounds perfect. You may have inspired me lol.

Now, just need to source a motor. She's been wanting a 2.5 for her car. Maybe I'll shop one of them and put her 2.0 in the bird
Hers is already almost 250 awhp. Just a turbo swap away from being well over 300...

Fallen2603

bottledbird68,

LOL! You call it inspired, others will call it corrupted. It would be cool to see. The improvements in handling should be pretty good, too. Lower and more centered CG. There's a much bigger Subaru aftermarket than there is for Ecotec's, too.

Here's hoping you do it!

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Subaru engines are great; a friend of mine has a 95 STI RA. But I'm not sure it's a great idea. Even if it fits between the frame rails, you'd probably have to pull the engine to change spark plugs which could be often when it's a turboed engine. OTOH maybe AWD wouldn't be as hard if S10 stuff is a similar fit.

V6canvas

iTrader: (1)

Subie powered third gen, that would be interesting. I wonder how well the 5 speed would handle all the power going out the back? I know they are the weak link in the awd setup, but with the ability to spin the rears, might be ok. Don't get burnout happy though!

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

My friend destroyed his 5-speed haha with a stock motor but we're putting a 6-speed in. It's a behemoth of a trans weighing around 250lbs and cost him something like $2500. It's from an 04 STI IIRC.

bottledbird68

The 5 speeds hold up ok if you don't powershift them. Otherwise thy come apart real easy lol.
I'm intrigued. Trying to see how cheaply I can source a motor first. Then I'll go from there. I'm assuming this has never been done before. May be interesting. But anyhow, enough hijacking. Ecotec!

Fallen2603

Yeah, width is the big variable I see causing an issue. Everything else...not so much. And, no, I highly doubt this swap has been done before. You'd probably be the first.

LOL! No apologies necessary! There ain't anything going on my thread, these days, to hijack! I just get to live, vicariously, off of someone else's project, hopefully.

There'll be more Ecotec updates...SOMEDAY.

bottledbird68

Well, since you don't mind lol.....

I think I may have killed the idea before I even started. My research without pullin out a tape measure (my bird is stored about 20 minutes away) says that the Subaru dohc ej motors are about 32" wide from edge to edge.
The only measurement I found posted says third gen rails are about 30" wide. If someone has a motor out and would like to confirm it would be much appreciated. That could be the deal breaker right there. Not going to cut up the frame rails to fit it. I suppose I could. But I don't really want to. Unless someone donates a motor to the cause lol. For free I'll start cutting lol.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Keep in mind that if you're keeping awd the motor would have to be mounted pretty far forward and iirc the frame rails get wider the farther forward you go. That being said the measurements you found probably indicate that spark plug changes will require the motor to be raised or lowered.

bottledbird68

I wouldn't keep it awd. I'd stick with rwd.
If those measurements are right raising or lowering wont help the cam gears won't physically fit between the frame rails. I don't want to try it bad enough to cut up my unibody structure. If in wont clear then I'll most likely just go with a boring old ls swap lol.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Time for a tube frame front end!

Ahh if you are going to go that far, put it in the back with a posche 911 AWD transaxle, hell why not just put the flat six turbo in there too. j/k. Though if someone actually DID do it, it would be cool to see. Not remotely practical at all, but cool all the same.