Atilla the Fun

Page 5!
I've shown already the final pics of an all-perfect end result, before I started this step-by-step, and now you know how to get there. Now I welcome questions and comments.

burnrubber

iTrader: (4)

Excellent post! Thank you for this tutorial

Atilla the Fun

I'm glad to learn that it's appreciated. With Vortecs, it's very necessary to improve the exhaust ports, and even so, they still need dual-pattern cams.

Doom86

Great work and effort thanks for sharing

After reading through the last 2 pages I want to go grind on something but I have no heads to work on.

You have a lot of great advice for novice porters, and seasoned alike. I'm not even in the same dimension as you as far as skill and experience is concerned but I know enough to tell everyone to listen to everything Atilla has to say about porting. Those seemingly minor tips pay off huge in the end so don't take any of it for granted, wear a dust mask, eye and ear protection, use fingers to check work, don't mindlessly hog out everything you can, ect. Too many great tips to note.

thanks again Atilla

skinny z

Excellent. Everything I've been searching for on the Vortecs.
I may have asked before however I'll ask now for clarity.
If the heads require a valve job and new guides, do you recommend doing it prior to porting or after? I understand the benefit of upgrading to the better valves (albeit stock sizes) and the need for a quality multi angle valve job. It's the order of operations I'm unsure about.

Atilla the Fun

If you're gonna pay for a valve job and good valves, then there's NO excuse to not save 1 more paycheck and upsize the exhaust valves to 1.60"
The guide bosses and most of the polishing should be done before any machining, but the seats must be cut, then the bowl-hogging done ( the 75-degree) before you can try your hand at grinding in the 90-degree angle.

Drac0nic

For as short side that is a GREAT pic. When I was playing with my set of 305 heads I never got one that good. It may have been covered but literacy is not my strong point, how do you go about "feeling" on the short side? When I was doing it there seemed to be a "shoulder" to it from the factory and I rounded that over as well as eliminating the "corners" on the edge where it met up with the side wall of the ports.

I'm convinced that I probably didn't do many things right on these, but the engine needs to get fired, tuned and dynoed for me to be content in making an evaluation one way or another. I'm still happy with the fact I did it because you'll never learn if you don't make mistakes evaluate them and improve on it. If I can ever get it done (LOL) I would be able to make such an evaluation. Your input would be awesome however. I'm already thinking of a home brew flow bench of some sort with a MAP sensor or two.

Atilla the Fun

There are lots of home benches out there, and lots of kits, but the only one I'd ever consider runs about $1,000 for the kit, and then create your own bench to accomodate it. If this is in your budget, I'll get you the info.
Short turns are notoriously difficult, especially to photograph. You can find a dentist's mirror for around $5, that'll help you look for flat spots, humps and so on, but you can't really do a good job of grinding while using the mirror. One, then the other, then one again.
I don't use the mirror at all on Vortec 350 heads, and now that I've tried LSx heads, it's no help with those, either, because they're so good to start with.
In the last 6 months I haven't even had any other heads on my bench, ( aside from Primetime91's Darts) that's how high the demand is for my Vortec porting.
I'd like to find a set of 081s, but I just can't spare the $85 right now to buy a pair.
The best way to evaluate your porting using a dyno is first to copy a known combo, and see how much better or worse yours is. Then put it in a car, and see how it likes accelerating in third gear, versus the same combo but not ported.
I've seen guys do bad porting, put it in the car, and suddenly take a full second longer to rev through third gear. One guy was so mad he spent a week flaming all porting and pro porters. That weekend I gave him a free pair of heads to try, and it shut him up, but no apology.

Drac0nic

I have a background in electronics so I'm thinking of using MAP sensors or a MAF. Maybe an old fashioned water column if I'm feeling really uppity.. I don't really care about calibration to verify against X Y or Z's bench just so log as I can use it to check my work and see if I am going in the right direction.

Oh god I hope not. I will be seriously cheesed if that happens. The next engine will get box stock 093s I have here on principle.

BTW check Craigs list on the heads. I have gotten some lucky hits on SBC stuff including a free 350 short block and a $50 L03 short block. For some reason people think 305 heads are worth money at least here it seems though.

Atilla the Fun

The first secret of the perfect valve job is that air will flow over a 15 degree (or shallower) angle the same as if it was a perfect radius. That's why we use increments if 15. If the seat is 45, then the adjacent angles will be 30 and 60. Then follow that up with a 75-degree bowl hog. The hogger should be adjusted to cut as deep into the bowl as possible without hitting the valve guide, when the other end of the hogger has narrowed the 60 degree cut to about 0.055".
Then there's the de-shrouding sweeper cut. This will remove material from the walls of the combustion chamber. Ideally, the best way to set it is to put the bare heads, cleaned, on the bare block, at the final bore size (already honed) and use a new red sharpie to mark the heads.
Then set the cutter to just barely remove the red ink. This cutter should end in a 15-degree angle, and the idea is to not cut any deeper than necessary to narrow the 30 degree angle to no less than 0.045".
This isn't best for everything, but it is so dang close that it will do excellent for all production SBC heads, including the mighty Vortec L31 heads.
Why anyone keeps this a secret is beyond me.
Print the above, take it to your local machine shops. Have them read it. If one argues, don't trust that one to do your heads.
You won't get significantly better results from anything else.

Atilla the Fun

Update!
If TxTtopZ goes through with buying it, you'll all soon be seeing pics of a stage 2 exhaust porting job done right.

Atilla the Fun

Notice: for the sake of me posting pics, the first person to ship me a pair of aluminum L98 heads will get a FREE stage 1 port and polish job. You pay all the shipping, both ways, but I'll do a stage 1 P-n-P, at NO cost to you. I'll also extend this deal to the first person with a pair of aluminum LT1 heads, and the first with a pair of S/R Torquers. Likewise the first pair of EQ200s, and the first pair of ProTopline 180s, and the first pair of RHS 180s, and the first pair of RHS ProTorkers.
The catch is that I own all rights to the pics. That's it.

philip052374

iTrader: (2)

atilla, i've been following this thread with great interest.
i have a set of dart iron eagle 215's that i worked on some after reading your threads! great info!

how about a set of edelbrock performer rpm's for the pics?

Atilla the Fun

Fine, send me a pair. They're not worth their cost, but they are better than 882s, or 487x, or Sportsman IIs, or several others I could list.

philip052374

iTrader: (2)

yeah, i bought these edlebrock heads years ago when i first started playing with cars. i was going to attempt to port them myself, but i'm scared i'll mess them up and end up with a useless lump of aluminum!

please pm me the particulars and mailing address. thanks, philip

Atilla the Fun

PM sent

Atilla the Fun

Stop! Don't ship me any heads. Today an unforsseable development drastically changed ALL my plans for at least the next 4 weeks. Sorry.

raffi4

iTrader: (2)

Well when you get back I have a set of 128 aluminum L98 heads that I have a few $$$ to put into.

benjamin6418

As with all Pro-Filer Performance Products, our Small Block Chevy standard replacement cylinder head is a fierce competitor on the track. Powerful port design produced with unbeatable casting technology gives the "Pro-Filer" SBC Standard Port 23 degree.
_________________
Social Bookmarking Submission Service
Manual Article Submission Service

Doom86

Some how this went from the best thread on TGO to a mess.

Atilla I know you have got to be lurking what gives? How can we get this mess restored??

Atilla the Fun

Yes, I'm still lurking, and answering PMs. This thread will be restored the second I know that bird boy has been banned. I ask nothing else. Direct your complaints about birdboy to JT. He's like a co-owner of tgo, or something like that, and it seems he only cares about not risking offending his sponsors, because he probably makes a profit. When it's about money rather than the best tech, you get these issues. If this post gets deleted, or I get banned, then those of you who have read this will have proof that it's true. But I no longer care. I'm not profiting, so for me it's only about the best tech. I'm extremely angry at many people here, who I feel have failed to act friendly towards me, and I don't need the stress. I know JT won't make me a moderator, because he probably thinks I'd be the petty dictator, banning any who disagree with me, or at least deleting their posts. Well, I would. But I'm the bigger man, I'm willing to settle for birdboy being gone forever. It's him or me, you decide who helps the most.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

So let me get this straight. If you can't get blind allegiance and hero worship you'll ask for a campaign from the members to ban someone? That is just beyond the pale.

You're right, you are petty.

I think different points of view should be not only welcome but celebrated. What value does discussion and learning all about if taken from a singular point of view? It's like political indoctrination in the schools. If someone is going to give advice should based on their claim of being a subject matter expert should that not be in question and not simply self proclaimed? Hell, I can claim to be anyone, it's the interweb.

Nobody is a god, despite what their ego tells them, and everyone deserves to be questioned, and answered. People are spending money based on what they read here, and other places, they DESERVE and should DEMAND that all information is vetted to the fullest extent before dropping a dime. And insisting that one side be stifled, is a detriment.

I am not so sure what this thread was going to prove anyway. There is no MEANINGFUL before and after basis to which judge success. Do we have a before dyno number? Time slip? I have demonstrated that top notch engine builders have reduced flow and picked up more power. So a flow number means nothing. Real builders port heads on a dyno, not on a flow bench. I've had that conversation with a top notch, world renowned, builder just yesterday. So without a good known quantity for comparison, what are we going to learn? It's an exercise in futility anyway and personally I think detrimental to anyone who is trying to learn something because the basis is non existent.

Guest

Atilla already explained in Nater's TFS 305 heads thread why you can't use time slips to evaluate porting. Go read that.
Why should Atilla waste his time arguing for what hundreds of magazine articles have already proven, that more flow helps power? Reducing flow to improve power worked at extremely low rpm with swirl-port heads, and works great when the good-flowing ports are too large for the engine combo under them, but it's well-established that Vortecs which are ported for flow rather than for maximum volume, do help power.
Every one of your posts that I've read is either anti-flow, or anti-efficiency, or anti-something good. Shall I go find examples? I can. Unless you go deleting. Either way, that's not in your favor.
Before these pics disappeared, it was very obvious just howw little iron Atilla was removing.
Atilla has always been good at answering questions, even the ones that were both fair and difficult. But as he said, 89fbird was just heckling, and noone can take much of that. Remember the news story about Kramer getting heckled in a club while doing his stand up comedy routine?
I get the impression that you don't understand all that much. I feel you and 89fbird aren't showing Atilla the respect that a student owes to a teacher.
I can't blame Atilla for leaving to stop the stress of 89fbird, and you, because that stress, he said, was so bad that his cancer was not going into remission. Surely a man's health must be chosen over debates.
I just watched a movie last night, and the memorable phrase was: the only ethical way to change a person's mind is to present evidence.
If you take that as true, then Atilla was doing better than you, and 89fbirdwas not even trying.
Some people won't ever be persuaded, even when they are wrong, because they haven't out-grown their need to be right. And that's very different than not being persuaded because you do have solid proof, which Atilla has.
Magazines are fond of before-and-after dyno tests to evaluate head porting, but Atilla said his customers never paid for that. And it's because they felt it was better to put that money into better parts than a "before" test. Those aren't his exact words, letter for letter, but close enough.
Asking a teacher questions is far different than questioning the teacher. Students have no place questioning the teacher, but 89fbird certainly was, and it looks to me like you are also.
Lastly, where is your evidence that what Atilla showed was hurting performance?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Dyno? So again, without a basis, what exactly is the point of all this short of stroking an ego? WIth all due respect, not using timslips to evaluate modifications to an engine is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have EVER heard. Can you imagine saying to a customer...yeah, I took $5000 of your money and your car is slower, but because I touched it it now qualifies as really cool. Do you drink?


I think you're Atilla with another log in, you always seem to step up after him but I can't prove it.

Here's a little inside industry secret. Magazine articles are all rigged and aren't worth the paper they are written on. A vast majority of the time they are not experiments for the consumer, but they are articles written by the manufacturer to make their product look good and most are a waste of time.

It was not always like that, but it is today and has been for the past few years. A huge manufacturer in this space told me if he writes the article, sends it in, with pictures and all it gets published.



I am saying that flow is not the first and final determination of how a head will perform. If you believe that you have proven your ignorance.

There is no such term in engineering, design, fluid dynamics, or anywhere else in science as PORT EFFICIENCY. That right there is evidence of a flawed basis. It's a made up marketing term. Go find a real head designer or engineer and ask them about efficiency you'll be laughed at.

I don't see it that way. I think 89 was posing fair questions.

I don't think spewing part numbers and running desktop dyno deserves hero status. I don't need him as a teacher. I work with the titans in this industry. They teach me. I work with engineers. Where is Attilla's engineering degree from?

I see it differently. He doesn't like to be questioned.

If the alter ego says so.

I posted ad nausea my thoughts on heads, you choose to ingnore it. My positions are grounded in engineering and backed by major engine builders and yours?


Did you read my comments on the worthless nature of magazine tests? I call that advertising.

And that right there is the problem. Cool parts over measured results. It is the bane of internet forums. How stupid is it to spend money and not know what you got other than a cool collection of parts you can brag to your friends about. I've seen these pigs run, and they ain't running fast. All the cool parts, none of the performance. Without a basis for measurement you got NOTHING.

I teach my kids to question the teacher every single day. And I will continue to do so. They are in grade school and I hope they do it now, through high school, and through college. The day we stop questioning "teachers" we accept false idols and simply expand ignorance.

I still don't understand the point of this entire thread. What does it prove other than feed an ego?

The bottom line is that no one wants to see the results. Why is that?

89fbirdformula

Get off your high horse. I get PM's daily asking for my help, and COUNTLESS pm's asking about my combo, and for advice about combos. In fact i had several PM's just letting me know about THIS post, and how foolish you are acting.

You seriously need to Grow up, and get over your "holier then thou" attitude.

I seriously cannot believe you are going with the "its my way or the highway" approach, how old are you?

Just wow. Thats about all i have to say.

To those who are just now reading this thread..let ME recap what happened to spawn all of this.

I simply questioned as to if Atilla had planned to PROVE that his work showed gains/benefits with either Dyno numbers, and or Flow data both before/after his port work.

Simply taking somone's word over a 1500 dollar set of heads is just ludacris!

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Kingnitro, here's the deal.

The people I gain my information from about how heads work are legends in the industry. here is a short list of the people who see the cylinder head world the way I do:

Reher Morrison-World Famous Engine Builder

World Products-Engineers at World who I know, met, and have spent time with

Curtis Boggs- One of the top, if not THE top head porter on the planet

Dart-Engineers at Dart who I know, met, and spent time with

Darrin Morgan-Legendary Head porter for Reher Morrison and now R&D at Profiler

Chris Uratchko- Famous, and incredibly successful engine builder

Chad Spier- Well known porter and co-designer of Air Wolf Cyl Heads

Jon Kaase: Legendary Engine builder

Billy Mitchell: Legendary Engine biulder

There's a short list. So all I'm saying is if I'm going to believe anyone it's personal conversations with experts in the industry rather than a guy on the internet and a magazine article.

I am sure the response is "that's racing" but as I pointed out the laws of physics do not change based on the application of the engine whether it be a dump truck or a sprint car. Just as your electrical outlet doesn't care if it's a 50 inch TV or a toaster.

Look guys,

Heads are one of the most expensive items you're going to put in you engine. All I am doing is raising points so that you can spend your hard earned money based on knowledge and understanding, not internet folklure and meaningless metrics such as static flow.

The economy is tough today, and it's not getting any easier. Knowledge is power for the consumer and anyone who tells you to lap up what they are selling and shut up isn't doing you any favors.

This includes ME. If you come to me for fuel system design I EXPECT that you put me through the ringer on each and every point before giving me your hard earned money. IF YOU DO NOT you have failed as a consumer. Likewise if I spew folklure to take your money, I am not worthy of your business. It's all about doing the right thing and I have no problem with anyone checking or questioning my positions or recommendations. Let's hold everyone to the same standard.

From the RFD website:


That's a guy I'm taking an education from....

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Flow numbers mean nothing.

And yes on the 1500 set of heads.

Guest

Why is it that 89fbird only posts when Atilla posts? That's not just heckling, that's stalking, We have laws about that. That's grounds for legal action against 89fbird.
Atilla, don't come back until both of these posters are gone. They're stressing me, too. But removing the pics to avoid criticism, and getting this much bashing just for answering Doom's question candidly, well, PM me your e-mail, so I can continue to learn.
JT sent me a PM asking about you. I didn't answer it, because it's obvious he's against you. Otherwise, JT would have been asking about 89fbird. When the dictator is against you, best to steer clear.
Just know that a few of us can see you know better than most about efficient performance on a tight budget, and I for one thank you for having tried to help those who have open minds.
You're right to choose rational self-interest. You can't help anyone else if you're dead. You have to look out for yourself, and if the TGO member majority wants to let their combos suffer for not fighting to keep you, then your conscience is clear, it's just a sad commentary on the younger generations, that I'm becoming ashamed to be a part of.

Guest

Atilla already explained that he doesn't touch on this stuff because 99.9% of TGO members wouldn't get it. That's valid.
And Atilla cared more about protecting people from lying profit-mongers like you, by giving us, for free, what thise guys are trying to charge hundreds of $ for.
You're one of THEM. Your profit is threatened by Atilla giving away your secrets, so of course you're out to dis-credit him. You just proved it. And that's very damning.
Atilla admits he was in that group until he got cancer, and that's when he started giving away your insider secrets. He belongs on your list, but you're not worthy.
Why buy your $1,500 heads, when for $100 I can get used Vortecs, and with Atilla's instruction, equal the better aftermarket alternatives?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

So everyone here is an idiot. Not nearly smart enough to understand. Got it. Dumbing it down. The people I have spoken to off this board seem very intelligent. I give them more credit than that. I don't see the need to dumb it down.

I'm not sure where you get off saying that. You have an example of that? When he's wrong, he's wrong. For example, that exhuast flow is important in making power. He's wrong. That there's some kind of ratio, he's wrong.

How so? What's with the personal attacks? I can't discredit anyone, people can only discredit themselves. How is he costing me money? And frankly, I don't care. FWIW, I just had a guy from COLORADO call me and I told him not to buy $400 worth of stuff he thought he wanted. His name is TOM and he's a member here. I'll have him post if you want.


FUNNY! No I'm not worthy, you're right!!! FWIW, i wish him well.

Prove it. Show me the before and after and I'll jump on the bandwagon for you. Because you said so isn't sufficient. What's the problem with asking for demonstrated proof? Why all bent out of shape.

Nice to see you have religion and a god. Blind following anything is dangerous

Atilla the Fun

kingtorquer, again I thank you for having the courage to stand by me, but again, I can fight my own battles. Even though they shouldn't need fighting. Why is is that more than half the responses this morning are from the villains who don't belong in my thread? Do they not realize the point of making a thread a sticky? It's not to help people find some arguing. It was to help people find a goodway to start on their heads, if they insist on trying it themselves. I may not be the best teacher, I may not have the best results in America. But the moderators decided that what I was showing was more help than harm, or else they would not have made it a sticky. And noone else has yet been willing to show and tell anything even equal to what I did. Let alone better. If better ever does come along, then we will have grounds for a discussion. Not arguing. But the other experts aren't gonna share. Mamo isn't doing it on LS1tech.com. There's no thread where he shows what to do to your #241 heads. If either of my enemies wish to dyno my heads against unported Vortec heads, then they can send me their $, and 2 weeks later I'll send them a pair of my stage 2.5 Vortecs. But better to ask someone who has already bought 2 port jobs from me, and is discussing a third: Primetime91. Send him a PM, asking about the results. He'll tell you about the visual consistency, the feel, and the acceleration, I have no doubt. I do wish more of my local customers would join TGO, but they don't drive these cars.

AGearHead4life

Man, I cant believe this crap! This is so annoying!

I am extremely thankful to have found Atilla as a teacher on TGO to guide me through my initial learning stages of porting. I could find no other teacher anywhere else local or on the web. It was so bad that I started ruining one of my own heads just to practice and learn from my mistakes before I found this thread.

Questions and explanations are one thing, people who just disagree with Atilla's way should simply leave us alone and let us learn they way we have chosen to learn. You can go have your class on another thread. please!

I thank you Atilla for your efforts. I look forward to learning more from you.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Moderator's note:

For the time being, I am closing this thread. It has turned into arguments and personal attacks.

Glean whatever information you wish from it. If you have questions of any of the contributors, PM them.

Sorry for the deterioration of what should be a good sticky.

JT

iTrader: (1)

Due to the complaints from both sides in this thread, we did some digging into the logs because there was suspicious behavior.

We concluded that Atilla The Fun, kingtorquer and JamieSweet have all been posting from the same computer using a residential connection. For whatever reason the above may be, this raises a few issues and concerns.

We do not allow a member to have multiple accounts. There is no (legitimate) reason for most members to have multiple accounts. We find that when a member does have multiple accounts, it's almost always done to deceive other members.

In addition, the above accounts, but not solely, are playing a role in the recent issues that have required repeated moderation.

If you go on to review posts between the 3 noted accounts above, you will find that, many times, the 3 refer to each other as if they don't even know each other, or know each other as well as they apparently do. Many times, all 3 (or atleast 2) are involved in the same threads as well.

For example, in this post:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...82-post34.html

Kingtorquer posted the above message at 09-21-2010 09:58 PM CT. Just 23 minutes prior, at 09-21-2010 09:35 PM CT, Atilla posted in the same thread, from the same computer, as kingtorquer with the following message:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...22-post29.html

That is just one, of many, examples that we found where the noted accounts are sounding as if they don't know each other as well as they apparently do. If they are both posting from the same computer, 23 minutes apart from each other, why would they need to "send" any heads to each other?

Even today, in this thread, two of the three noted accounts were, again, posting from the same computer within just "minutes" a part.

We cannot state, for certain, if the 3 accounts are one in the same or just really, really, close friends/family/etc. However, the above 3 accounts have been linked to each other, so we're disclosing that fact for disclosure and why it's been a concern to us. There might be a legitimate explanation and the 3 accounts may not be one in the same person, but they definately know each other to be able to use the same computer, minutes a part from each other.

We felt that, in conclusion, the behavior was suspicious on top of the accounts having required numerous moderation.

When I contacted JamieSweet to inquire about Atilla and any connection between him and Atilla, as I was interested in finding a solution (this was after Atilla The Fun said he left ThirdGen.org), JamieSweet informed me that Atilla is doing work in his (JamieSweet's) basement. JamieSweet went on to say the following:

To be upfront, when a member displays the type of attitude as displayed above, it's very difficult to work with them. No one had threatened Atilla with a Ban to justify JamieSweet's comments as shown above. I merely asked how JamieSweet knew Atilla, and stated that I was reviewing the issues.

The above is just one of many examples where the 3 noted accounts have shown a severe attitude that is inappropriate on our forums. Numerous times has Moderation been required to clean up posts because the attitude was inappropriate, only fueled issues between members on the forum, and was violating our guidelines.

It is not the responsibility of the Moderators to "protect" members from legitimate questions and debates - as long as they don't violate our guidelines. We often learn by asking questions and debating information.

Atilla The Fun, Kingtorquer and JamieSweet are not the only parties to blame in all of this. Others have received warnings and moderation, numerous times. However, Atilla The Fun, Kingtorquer and JamieSweet are not only participating in what we feel is suspicious behavior, but they keep trying to press us to ban certain people and hold (and even remove) information as hostage in order to persuade us. Their behavior, and demands, are inappropriate and unrealistic.

I'm sorry to all those involved. I know that Atilla has knowledge and there are some that seek his knowledge. However, there are some that have been reporting complaints with Atilla's on-going behavior that has required on-going Moderation in an attempt to keep things at bay. It is not the responsibility for Moderators to continue to monitor the same people over and over again who cannot participate on a mature, civil, level and within our simple guidelines. No improvement has been shown by the parties involved and the issues continue.

I'm sorry, but we cannot fulfill Atilla's personal request to ban specific members unless those members violate our guidelines and Moderation has decided to Ban the member. Such a decision is a staff decision. We cannot Ban members, at the request from another member, just because that member does not like having to be questioned or debated - which is part of a message forum. We all learn by sharing, questioning and debating information. As long as that is done within our guidelines, there should be no need to Ban or moderate.

It is very unfortunate when any member removes, or holds hostage, information/knowledge in an attempt to get their personal requests fulfilled. I think that speaks volumes itself and is not something we can just comply with.

For those who are wondering, Atilla not only removed the content in his threads, but he also removed the pictures that were hosted off-site. Basically, this is known as taking your ball and going home.

If people cannot get along with each other and continue to require moderation, people will be Banned. This applies to *everyone*.

Atilla, you appear to have a wealth of knowledge but we cannot allow that as a reason to trump obeying our rules or to fulfill requests to ban certain people that you personally don't care for. Moderation, especially Five7kid, has been having to moderate numerous posts, for a long period of time, but both parties persist with their antics. I feel that we have tried to assist those involved and have tried to keep things on track and civil, via numerous moderation, but we cannot be held responsible when the parties involved won't do their own part.

Atilla, I'm sorry that you have a serious disease (Cancer) and suggest you take care of yourself. Many times you have specifically stated that TGO members are to blame for your cancer not going into remission, and if you firmly believe that, then you need to take matters into your own hands by getting away.

AGearHead4life

wow. thank you for the thorough and fair explanation of what is going on. I'm sorry to hear of this situation on TGO.

Keep up the good work.

LONG LIVE TGO!!!

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I think this thread is a good lesson on the dangers of internet idol worship.

Here's a guy who to told people to spend 1000s of dollars when it turns out at the end of the day, he's nothing but Atilla the FRAUD.

I know I get bitchy about stuff like this, but guys, it's your money. Do not be so enamored with someone because they are enamored of themselves.

Keep an open mind about what constitutes good information. There wasn't going to be any without a control and a test at the end of the day. This is not a photograhy board, it's a performance/car board.

Without a before and after comparison on this thread, it was a worthless thread from the get go.

There is a VERY valuable lesson here when you're going to spend your money. I hope it was learned.

AGearHead4life

I must have missed that part. I read the parts where he was showing us to do it ourselfs and save money. Not spending 1000's. Which highly motivated me. As a beginner in this area I was thankful for the detailed information that was given to give me guidelines to start with. Otherwise I'd have to resort to my own guess work which has now ruined my vortec head Good guidance is needed in this area.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Showing you what exactly? How do you know what you were being shown is right? What if what he is showing you screws up your heads beyond being useable? The internet would never lie to you right? I have some money the king of Nigera left me, want some?

Without results and a before and after comparison, how do you know what he was showing you was worth your time, money, and effort.

There was no evidence without a before and after, that this was the case and a flow bench proves nothing. Time slips and dyno sheets would.

My goal here is to get people like you to start thinking CRITICALLY so you get the results you want and be happy. I am honestly looking out for YOU.

Not mimic something that is unproven. Because he TOLD you that you were learning something valuable does not mean you were.

This guy's agenda was one of self aggrandizement, not assistance. It is clear in every self important post he made. Don't confuse ego with knowledge.

AGearHead4life

Very true and I understand you point. But you dont understand mine and how desperate I was to find any type of guidance at all. I was already trying to teach myself with no references, which was ruining my project. I had read the basics already, but hadnt found specifics. It took em long enough just to find proper tools for the job. I had searched all over the web and this was the most education post I had come across.

I could give you the link to my project on youtube just to show you how much help I needed. My porting on it looked random and screamed help. but I was proud of it and was chasing a dream of learning.

89fbirdformula

This is exactly what i have been trying to get at, and for some reason, i have had warnings, and my account put on probation, for helping, and looking out for fellow TGO members.

I would LOVE an explanation for this from the moderators, a PM will suffice.

Respect is something EARNED, not just given out for the hell of it.

Its blatantly obvious this guy wasnt/isnt who he claims to be, and it sucks in a way...but in another way, its a good thing that he cant screw members over.

AGearHead4life

I could have done the testing for results on my own and had learned my lesson. At that point to move on and fix what was wrong on my next project. Process of elimination. I gotta learn some how.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I'm up at almost 1AM in the morning, and I'm responding to guys like you.

YOU are the reason I got banned from other forums. TWICE.

YOU are the reason I do a lot of what I do.

YOU deserve GOOD information. I'm not saying that I am the ultimate resource for anything. I am saying I have a point of view and so do others.

Listen to them all and make intelligent decisions.

When I got into fuel injectors years ago, I wanted to know how these things worked. I called LUCAS and spoke directly to the guy who designs the injectors, for over an hour.

Then I compared that information to what I got on the internet.

Your position of desperation should NOT be taken advantage of by people who are dishonest. Look at this case. "KINGNITRO" sent "ATILLA THE FRAUD" heads to port. The reviews would have been GREAT.

Then what? You would send yours and let him hack away? People should be shot for that.

It's late, I'm tired. Call my line tomorrow, I'll talk to you, tell you what I know, and refer you to good people who can help you out. I know one guy who builds the best junkyard motors running 11s on a budget. He'll be happy to talk to you.

I have contacts all over the place, let me help you out.

I'm not engine god, no expert, nobody here is. However, I have a pretty effective bull **** meter and I DO NOT want to see people like you throw money or spend time on unproven methods/parts.

My intentions here are as clear as I can make them I want you to get the best results within the budget you have and if there's some way I can help, call me, I'll refer you to who I think can help.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I have learned the hard way, and the expensive way, what to do and what not to do. Sometimes there's a high cost to being cheap. I HAVE LEARNED THAT for sure!

Heck, I built my cars three times over before getting it right, and it's still not done.

But going through that multiple times I hope I can give some insight so you don't have to go through it once. That's an expensive lesson.

You can learn alot if you apply critical thinking. Don't take everything at face value, from me or anyone else. Verify what you are being told, not just here but on other forums. Try HOTRODDERS.COM those guys know how to get a build together on a budget. Try YellowBullet, for the other extreme. Learn before you make a move. The theories don't change, just the application does.

I think the most important thing is to talk to the right people. I learned about heads from engineers, and engine builders, and from head porters. I got on the internet and found out who were the top guys in the business who were accessible and I asked them. What I found out is there is a LOT of mis information that passes as fact in the internet space. You would be SHOCKED who you can talk to if you just pick up the phone. Wanna talk to guys like Jim Crower about a cam? WHY NOT? There is proven, documented experts who believe it or not will give you time, if you ask. Darrin Morgan posts his direct dial number, take advantage of it.

All I am saying is do your homework, and if you're going to take advice, do it from someone who is willing to PROVE it, not hide behind 3 screen names to feed an ego. The most important thing is be patient. Nothing happens overnight.

If you can walk away with anything here, it should be that this thread, with out a before and after comparison, was completely WORTHLESS. It was an exercise in ego inflation nothing more.

Once you understand that you are well on your way to critical thinking, and as a result, your project will turn out MUCH better than if you weren't.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Respect is earned, not self proclaimed or demanded. I'd make that correction.

TwinTurboROC

I usually don't get involved but this time ill make an exception.

1) Respect IS earned - if you think otherwise, you belong with the schmuck bald cancer victim lookalike host of pinks.