RexKarr

I'd planned to put my pontiac 400 in my firebird for quite some time, but have recently decided to save it and look for an early 70's car. Now I plan to build a sbc 350 that will swap right into my '86 firebird. I'm wanting to keep the budget as close to $2000 as possible, by reusing all the things I can from my 305 and my impalas 283. So far my basic idea is to use the 3917291 double humps off the 283 (not original), run a solid lifter cam (xs274s), update the valve train to match cam, I have a holly intake (will have to see what it is) and I have an edelbrock carb (600 or 650, will have to check). If you've got better ideas, let me have them.

Thanks
Rex

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Skip the edelbrock carb.
Just use a q-jet. That'll save some cash. You'll need a spreadbore performer RPM intake though. But that's only $175 or so, less than the cost of a carb for your existing intake.

Should be a HOT performer though. Those double humps have hardened valve seats right? port work?

Get the engine balanced, and use ad adjustable pushrod to get the right length pushrods. Use polylocks and tall valve covers. You should be able to rev good and high then.
Watch your compression ratio. You'll want 10:1 or so.

Rear gears and stall speed need to match.

make sure it has headers and good exhaust.

Still under the $2k budget?

RexKarr

After checking out the holly intake, its obvious that the ports are considerably smaller than the ones in the heads, so I think I'll take your advice and start looking for a rpm performer intake. Any reason not to use my edelbrock carb? I have a few quadrajets and know they are good, but are they really better than an edelbrock or holly for this setup?

I'm not sure what has been done to the heads, I've just taken the first one off the 283. I do plan to have them completely redone though. They have 1.94 valves and I planned to have them recut to 2.02 unless I find a reason not to. I'm not sure which valves to use. Manley? Ferrea? How much difference is there between ferrea's 5000 series and 6000 series. At this performance level is there any reason not to use the 5000's? Polylocks are definitely on the list, but I'm not sure why I'd need adjustable pushrods.

I considered roller rockers but don't know if the moneys best spent elsewhere. Harland sharps look good, are reasonably priced, and they claim 15-40 hp gains. I don't know whether or not to believe that, but it sounds great. I'd love to use an old school looking finned aluminum valve cover though. Any chance of finding something that would fit with the roller rockers? What about pushrod guides?

The car already has headers and decent exhaust (may upgrade later though). Not sure what the rear ratio is, but I feel it might be 3.42. I'll choose a stall after I'm sure on the cam and everything else. And yeah, I won't be far off budget.

Thanks

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

If you have an edelbrock lying around, might as well use it.
But if you have to buy one, and you're on a tight budget (I have no idea how $2k can get an engine assembled at all, let alone high performance, but power to you...), then i'd recommend a Q-jet. I personally love the setup and adjustability, I like the spreadbore concept, and they are cheap ( junkyard and rebuild kit).

$2k budget and Ferrera valves don't really go together... Just get a valve seat job done up. Replace any worn valves with stock replacements. Backcut as needed. Not super classy stuff is needed for this build, otherwise you'll blow the budget pretty quick.

A (singular) adjustable pushrod. Use it to determine the length you need. Using the wrong length pushrod can really affect valvetrain limits and longevity. It's a cheap tool.

Roller rockers fit under normal valve covers AFAIK.

F-BIRD'88

The 291 heads are worth more in stock usable/rebuilable form than modified.
Just dissassemble them and clean them up and reassemble them and sell them as good used unmolested heads. You just want to clean them so a potential buyer can inspect them. You can do this yourself. They are worth $250 to $500 to someone that needs those specific rare castings. (NHRA/IHRA Stock/Superstock eliminator) As long as they are not cracked.
With the money buy a good assembled modern aftermarket hi-perf head like the Summit/Brodix 200cc aluminum heads. SUM-162111
You'll spend more than the difference in price upgrading your 291 heads
(valves, springs, machining,porting etc etc) and the new heads will be better in all respects.
Again, if your 291 heads are good castings they are worth a good buck to a superstock or stock eliminator motor builder but only in stock unmolested form.

Trade your 600cfm carb for someone that thinks their 750cfm carb ( holley/edelbrock) is too big.

You'll be much further ahead $$/power wise with these two moves.

roughskinjrz

for 2000$ if the bottom endd is ok leave it. buy a cam/heads/intake/carb you can get all that for 2000$ used.

dunno why you wanna use solid cam/lifters unless its really high performance and you rev high.

i think a good flat tappet cam, maybe some used aluminum heads (edelbrocks for like 600-800$), performer rpm intake and q-jet not much money invested

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Vortecs are the hot ticket of course, but I stand by my budget build as well.

I used an aggressive solid flat tappet cam, and haven't looked back. My engine isn't even balanced, but it's got a pretty spectacular midrange. I read a number of reviews on back to back comparisons of "similar" hydraulic vs solid flat tappet cams (have to tweak the specs to be able to compare apples to apples)... anyway, the solid usually picks up 20+HP, and has a much wider powerband. I wouldn't give up my 108LSA cam

RexKarr

Budgets are almost always broken and I'm sure it will happen to me. I dont have the engine that I'll be building yet, but will probably not be paying for it (trade). My machinist quoted 170 to do a block. Thats for everything, clean, mag, bore, install cam bearings. he said almost that much more if it has to be line bored, but I'm hoping it won't. I think he said about 30 to polish the crank.

So if the block machine work really does end up being that cheap here's my costs

machine work 200
pistons 200
rings 100
all bearings 120
gaskets 200
so thats 820 for the short block, leaving me 1180 for the topend before I'm over budget.

head machine work 300
cam kit 470
cam kit includes cam, springs, timing set, retainers, valve seals, etc.
so I have 410 before I'm over budget and I need an intake, valves, etc. I'll probably trade for an rpm performer, so I won't even count that into my budget. Ferrea 5000 series are going to be 130. Studs (arp), push rods, and guide plate kit is 90 on ebay. Honestly, I don't think I can get anywhere near 600 for my heads, they look great, but this casting is selling for half that on ebay.

Am I crazy to use old iron heads with an all new valvetrain? This is what almost all the pontiac guys do. I can't really imagine that I'll be cheaper off going with new heads and a mediocre valvetrain. Am I wrong?

Thanks for all the ideas
Rex

RexKarr

forgot the cost to redo the rods, maybe 140 including arp bolts? In the end, if I'm under 2500 I'll consider it a success.

F-BIRD'88

Using your numbers I think you are missing the point. For $250 more you get a cylinder head that is much better and way more powerfull.
The new 200cc port Summit aluminum heads come with the right valves and springs installed. so you only need a hyd or solid cam+lifter set, not the whole kit.

I would just clean up the heads then offer them directly to a shop or two that builds Superstock motors. They need these castings specificly. E bay would be a last resort.

The heads you have do not have alternator bracket bolt holes or hardened exhaust seats.
Unless you are very good at porting camel backs and are willing to do that, the Summit 200cc heads will make more power even with a generic $85 summit hyd cam+lifter set, than the 291's will make with a expensive Comp/Lunati cam set.

I just see the 291's haveing more real value to your project, sold off to fund better heads.
If they are as good shape as you say someone local to you will likely buy them for $300-400.

If you want proper piston quench, you would want to get the block decked.
There are a couple good ways to end up with .040" net piston head clearance @TDC. Just makes for a better high compression motor.

There is just too much power in the cylinder heads to short change them in your budget.

If I was going to do the 291's up cheap i would stay with a 1.94 valves, port them myself and drill and pin the OEM studs.
But as I said they are worth more to the right motivated buyer in OEM origional rebuildable form.

Something to consider.

RexKarr

After adding up the costs, I see what you're saying, but I don't really have any idea how much power any of these heads will actually make. You've almost convinced to go with an aftermarket head, but I'd like to know what you estimate the power to be with the 291's and with with the summit heads. Truthfully, if I end up going aftermarket, Id be tempted to get something better than the summit head if I can. Brodix is a name I've heard a lot about, and I'd like to know what you think about the IK 200 or IK 180. I'm not sure which is better for my aplication, but I'm curious to know what kind of improvements I would see over the 291's or Summits. I'm not really interested in Vortecs for a few different reasons, but if you'd like to throw out an estimate for that one to, I'd like to here it. Even if I don't use the 291's, I'll probably keep them around for now.

I appreciate the help,
Rex

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

if ur interested i have for sale some edlebrock perf. rpm heads. they are
62cc chamber
170cc intake runner 2.02 valve flow 250cfm @.600 lift 4.03 bore
they come with guideplates, rocker studs, 1.5 alum. roller rockers and lox
and some chrome valve covers. i was using them with a vic jr. they are in excellent condiion, around 2k miles, and ready to bolt on. alredy been milled for flat surface. come assembled with .550 lift springs.

F-BIRD'88

The 200cc summit head is the same head as the brodix IK200 (64cc) with "Summit" casting ID instead of "IK200"
I checked these heads out at Summit racing in Ohio, last year.
You can look at the Brodix site to see the specs. Lots of bang for the bucks.
The Brodix brand are about $100 more. Same head.
Edelbrock RPM's and TFS 195cc port 23deg head are good stuff too.
As are the GM bowtie vortecs. GM has a killer new revised big port bowtie vortec
head #25534446 about $900-$1000 assembled. It's ecentually a Cast Iron Fast Burn head
F R O M H E L L !!

As I said unless you are a old pro at max porting 291's, they will not make near as much power as any of these heads do in out of the box form.

RexKarr

It almost sounds like you're saying the summits and the brodix are the same casting, but I assume you mean that the summit is a copy. Do you think the brodix have an advantage over the summits? What about the quality of the valves and springs on each of these? I believe both could support my proposed cam. Is the brodix ik180 not more appropriate for a 350?

Its hard to make a decision on whether or not to go after market without having any idea what kind of power gains I will get. It would really help if someone would estimate my power output with my original parts list, and again with brodix heads with a lower lift cam with maybe lower rpm range to. I really don't have any idea what to expect from either setup.

92RSStud

Ok buddy here is my budget sheet using inexpensive.. but not parts i will need to replace every other day.... and thats bare-block up... already having block machined, cam bearings installed, pistons, rods, and a crank. And i pulled my heads of my Fathers 1972 c10 that has been sitting for a while... so i saved myself from having to spend another $1500 or so right there.

Parts Needed To Complete 355 Build

Ordered

$31.00
-Timing chain and Gears from Summit ordered From Summitracing.com

$52.00
-Main Bearings .010 undersized from Speed Pro Ordered From Summitracing.com

$61.95
-Oil Pump Pre-Welded from Summit Ordered From Summitracing.com

$123.43
-Cam Shaft Xtreame Energy Cam from Comp Cams ordered From Compcams.com

$213.80
-Gasket Set From Summit Ordered From Summitracing.com
-Push Rods ChromeMoly crn-11621-16 From Summit Ordered from summitracing.com
-Rod Bolts from AFR Ordred from Summitracing.com

$361.30
-lifters from CompCams Ordered From Summitracing.com
-Rod Bearings from Clevite Ordered From Summitracing.com
-Water Pump from GMB Ordered From Summitracing.com
-Harmonic Balancer from Summit Ordered From Summitracing.com
-Rocker Arms from summit Ordered From Summitracing.com

$377.85
-Centerforce clutch and Pressure Plate Ordered From Summitracing.com
-Zoom Flywheel 153 tooth Ordered From Summitracing.com

$65.00
- 2in Carb Spacer Stud Kit Ordered From Summitracing.com
- Cam Button Spacer Ordered From Summitracing.com
- Carb Spacer 2in Ordered From Summitracing.com
- Intake Bolt Kit Ordered From Summitracing.com
- Fuel Pump Block Off Ordered From Summitracing.com

$94.90
- Fuel Regulator Ordered From Summitracing.com

$171.90
-Hooker Competition Headers Ordered From Summitracing.com

$590.70
-Goodmark 4" Cowl Hood Ordered From Summitracing.com

$78.10
-Centerforce Throwout Bearing Ordered From Summitracing.com
-Summit Timing Tab ordered From Summitracing.com
-Summit Timing Cover Ordered From Summitracing.com

$365.00
-Resize Rods
-Balance Rotating assm.
-Machine Flywheel
-Mount Rods and Pistons

Spent: $2586.73

And thats... so far... i still need a bigger radiator than the stock radiator.. and the y-pipe.

so add another $500

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

pm replied
my car went 10.8 on motor with a 383 with heads i mentioned
on pump gas. car ran excellent on the street.
they will make for a strong 350ci motor even with a mild cam