calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

So I've decided to build my own budget motor. these are the parts I have in my possession. A 1977 block, casting number 3970010 4-bolt main, used, hot tanked, checked for cracks and milled. Also bored .030 over to freshen up the cylinders. Stock crank out of my old 350 cleaned up. Stock Connecting rods from same motor. New Speedpro flat top hypereutectic pistons with .030 overbore and standard ring set for that size. I also have a stock cam that I'm going to replace. I have stock pushrods as well, but don't know if I should replace them, they're not bent but I don't know if they will hold up in the motor I'm building. So I need advice on that.
This is all of the stuff I'm buying in the next couple of weeks/months.

Cam and lifter package from summit-Edelbrock Performer RPM Cam and Lifter Kits
Cam and Lifters, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 308/ 318, Lift .488/ .510, Chevy, Small Block, Kit.

Heads-GM Performance Parts Vortec Cylinder Heads
Cylinder Head, Vortec, Cast Iron, Assembled, 64cc Chamber, 170cc Intake Runner, Chevy, Small Block.
Intake manifold-Weiand Action+Plus Intake Manifolds
Intake Manifold, Action+Plus, Dual Plane, Aluminum, Natural, Square Bore, Chevy, Small Block, Vortec Heads.

Beside gaskets which I'm not going to list evidently, does this seem like a good build? Like I said, it's a budget build, and I am open to minor price fluctuations, but my wife put me on a pretty streamlined budget lol. Any words of wisdom from you guys here would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again ~Karl

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

No.

It doesn't get much worse than that.

You'll end up with pretty low compression with that piston & head combo; those pistons (H345NP) are .045" "down in the hole" at TDC, so your as-built compression ratio will be about 9.2:1. That's about 2 full points shy of enough to use that cam. Not that that would be the cam to use, even if you DID have 11:1; but, that's the first reason why it's the wrong cam for this build. Besides it just not being a very good cam in the first place. For the amount of "big cam" hassle it creates (low vacuum, poor low-speed driveability, high fuel consumption, very poor low-RPM torque), you can get modern cams that make ALOT more power; or looked at the other way, you can make the same power with ALOT less of the "big cam" hassles, out of almost ANY "modern" cam. By "modern", I mean a cam designed in the last 40 years or so.

In addition to that, your intake choice is a low-RPM, high-torque design; it will work best with a cam that supports the same properties. Mis-matching them will give you a motor that has no low-RPM torque because of the cam, and no high-RPM power because of the intake. The worst of both worlds.

Cams that are KNOWN to work well with those heads, are the Comp XE series and Lunati Voodoo series. Since the heads have all this terrific intake flow, but the same sucky exhaust port and flow as about any other stock heads, they benefit GREATLY from cams with a bigger exhaust lobe than intake (about the only "good" feature of that Stone Age one). I.e., the old Comp HE or the Lunati Bracket Master cams, aren't a good match.

For the compression you have, I'd suggest the Comp XE262, or AT MOST the XE268; or the 60102 Voodoo I think it is, the one right in between those 2 Comp ones.

Besides just needing to get a better cam choice, the rest of it will be fine. Should be plenty of fun to drive.

I'd suggest a Holley 6210 carb, if you're looking to buy a new one.

You don't mention gears or a converter; those things can have a HUGE impact on how a motor works in a car, especially what cam works best. If you have stock gears and/or converter, go easy on the cam; if you have a high stall or a stick, and 3.42 gears or higher, you can safely bite off a bit more on the cam.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

You guys on here are great. I was actually just looking over the paper numbers with my Father, he's built some chevy stuff in the past and he basically said that the cam I was looking at was going to be the downfall of my motor. Thank you man. I was looking into the Lunati Voodoo series as my second pick, any advice on that while were on the topic?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Oh, my car is 5spd and 3.08 in the rear. I was actually thinking 3.42's in the rear when I get to that portion of the build actually.
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Lunati Voodoo Cam and Lifter Kits
Cam and Lifters, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 262/ 268, Lift .468/ .489, Chevy, Small Block, Kit

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

You might want to consider this head/intake kit http://www.sdparts.com/product/SD806...RPMAirGap.aspx . Hard to beat the price.

If you go with a spreadbore carb, go with this kit http://www.sdparts.com/product/SD806...merIntake.aspx .

Whatever carb you use, make it a double pumper.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Okay, those both look promising as well, now I've gotta do more research. This may sound really dumb, but are there advantages/disadvantages to spread/square bore carbs and the manifold counterparts?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

A spreadbore carb will generally be able to get better gas mileage than a square flange one. This difference can be quite significan,t depending on the rest of the car; a car with a low-number gear like yours, will end up with the greatest difference between the 2.

A square one will generally be able to produce a couple more HP than a spreadbore one. This difference is generally quite small.

Some manifolds come with suitable hole patterns and stud drillings for both kinds. Some don't. I do know, from working with one of my brothers on a Vortec build, that there is no Perfromer RPM or similar manifold with the spreadbore pattern; so with one of those, you'd have to either use a square carb, or an adapter. I believe the A+ you asked about earlier has both kinds. The GMPP Vortec manifold does also IIRC (might just be a re-badged Performer; I don't know).

I agree with Five7 about the double-pumper. A manual secondary carb will make more power and just all-around run better, once the driver learns how to operate it (can't just stomp it to the floor at a stop, for example, you have to sort of roll into it), compared to a vac sec one. The 6210 is a spreadbore manual secondary (double-pumper) 650 CFM Holley.

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...HLY%2D0%2D6210

For that matter, if you can come up with a GOOD Q-Jet, that's not a bad choice either. Problem is, coming up with a good one. They tend to be pretty hacked-up and worn out.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Okay so if I'm looking for a good daily driven car I would prefer a spreadbore intake manifold for my vortec heads, with a double pumper carb spreadbore.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

I don't know if this was covered already, but vortec heads can only handle a max of .480" lift. So when you pick your cam, keep that in mind.

The vortec heads are a great choice for a budget build, but I would recommend finding a used set. You'll spend 600 bucks for a new set out of a magazine. For a few hundred more you could buy a used set of aluminum heads.

I bought my used set of vortecs for 200 bucks. If you want, I can give you a guys email, he sells them for 300 bucks for a pair, and he'll guarantee them. He's on our local Wisconsin Racing site. Reputable guy. I'm not sure if he'll ship, but it's an option you might want to look in to. PM me if you'd like to go that route.

Good luck.

Greg

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The heads in the kits I linked have been modified for .575" lift.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Yep I read that. I could have had my heads machined to handle the extra lift but didn't. I figured it defeated the purpose for the "ultra-budget" build. Do you actually gain a lot from the potential extra .100" lift? I understand that the valve will be open further during the duration of it being open, but is it worth the extra money?

Thanks.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Haha I'd like to know too....

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The intake ports inthe Vortec heads, stall at something around .525" or .550" lift, I forget exactly. In other words, the flow actually starts to go DOWN when the lift exceeds that value.

OTOH, how much of the time does the valve spend actually AT that peak opening? Not a whole lot....

So if the cam boosts the valve open into its "sweet spot" of lift as early as possible in the valve cycle, and keeps it there for as long as possible, and then holds it within the "sweet spot" again on its way back closed, does it really hurt anything if it goes ABOVE that for a few degrees and lowers the flow for a percent or 2 during that time, if it gains 5 or 10% or whatever the rest of the time by having the valve open farther longer at lower lifts? I would say, no; that the "ideal" peak lift for a cam, is actually SOMEWHAT ABOVE the "port stall" lift.

But then, if the heads are modified for higher lift, that gives you more freedom in choosing valve springs, retainers, valves, seals, etc., even if you DON'T use the full lift capability; and, since modding for .575" lift costs NOTHING EXTRA compared to, say, modding for .525" lift, there's no good reason not to just cut the guide down those extra few .001"s.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Okay, now I have ALOT of thinking to do lol.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Oh yeah I forgot to mention one thing, I have 1.6 roller tip rockers. Sufficient for my build or no.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

It will depend on the heads. Some heads need self aligning rockers. Also, some heads can only handle so much lift. For instance, if you use a cam with .480 lift, using a 1.6 roller rocker will increase lift to .530 (or somewhere around there). So you don't want to over do the lift with the rockers.

My 400 with stock vortec heads has a cam with .480" lift. I can't run anything bigger than 1.5 ratio rocker, and they also need to be self aligning.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Thanks man.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

If they're Comp 1400 series, yes. If they're stamped sheet metal, no.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

The ywere the one's that were in there before I ripped down the 350, and I think they are just stamped. They look a bit shoddy to me...... But then again so did the block when I got it, and now it looks like it was made yesterday.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Okay I found a set of 1.6 self alignings for the intake and 1.5 self aligning for the exhaust side, both rollers. Sufficient?

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

What heads/cam did you choose?

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

I went with the voodoo's and the summit heads actually. Part #
SUM-152123

The summit heads have 2.02 intake, and 1.6 exhaust, with max lift of .520 and they can take center or perimeter bolt valve covers. the yhave 67cc chambers and 165cc intake runners. And a 3 angle valve job brand new. I like all of that plus a slight bit less compression than the GM Vortecs @ 64cc chambers, trying to keep way clear of detonation lol.
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The summit heads are a lot like old school double hump heads..... and I don't need to be constrained to just vortec intake manifolds.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

What are the specs on the cam?

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Lunati Voodoo Cam and Lifter Kits
Cam and Lifters, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 262/ 268, Lift .468/ .489, Chevy, Small Block, Kit
LUN-60102LK

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

It should work. As for making maximum power I'm not sure. You might want to get a second opinion. Maybe send a PM to 5-7, sofakingdom, or sonix.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

I was thinking about that as well, and after I decided on those heads, I started thinking about lift, and then the Lunati Voodoo 60103LK came to mind. I forgot the exact specs, but maybe that would be a better choice because it gets more lift than the or voodoo. And Summit is pretty good about return and swaps, especially since they are the same price.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Those heads probably don't use self-aligning rockers. Can't see from the info one way or the other, but they're patterned off of older heads and engine applications. You can always drill out the pushrod holes if you really want to use self-aligning.

I don't know enough about Voodoo cams to give an opinion one way or another. The specs of the one you listed look like a good match for the heads. Either one of those cams, judging by the duration and stated RPM range, you're going to want a Performer RPM or Stealth intake manifold - the Action + will be lacking in the upper RPM range, while neither the RPM nor Stealth will hurt you on the low end.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Thanks, I forgot all about the self aligning rockers, they're my buddies so I lucked out on the return policy. It'll probably be something close to buy me a beer haha. As for the intake, I am in the process of picking the stealth I think......

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

57Kid or someone else who is knowledgeable, I just got some Speed Pro H345NCP030 pistons, and was wondering if I needed to get my block milled .020 to make the compression right? I saw it on another thread and just wanted it on here because this is quickly becoming my resource for my build lol. Thanks in advance!

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

bump.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

You put an extra "0" in the part number, s/b H345NCP30, I believe.

1.540" will put them .020" deeper in the hole than 1.560". Of course, it depends upon how close to 9.025" your block is, whether or not to deck it .020".

To quote sofakingdom from last year:

Right; "stock" deck height is 9.025", tolerances approx +.010" -.015". Most are between 9.025" and 9.030". Most are within .010" or so from cylinder to cylinder, but not always; sometimes they're ALOT farther out than that. Especially the mid-70s ones with the super-crappy QC of those days; I've seen them as much as .020" out, from the front cyl on one side to the rear cyl on the other side.

You gotta REALLY REALLY WATCH OUT for that compression height spec. Piston mfrs are REALLY BAD about giving the "nominal" height for the "stock" configuration that their piston is "designed" to "replace"; and NOT the ACTUAL height of THEIR product. For example, nearly all of the TRW/SpeedPro line "says" 1.56" CH, because they're "designed" to "replace" pistons in a motor with that spec; but if you measure one, they're ACTUALLY 1.54". In other words, .020" farther down in the hole than stock. Same for PRACTICALLY ALL "rebuilder" pistons; the Badger, Silv-o-lite, etc. type of things, as well as almost all of the hypereutectics with the possible exception of the KBs. About the only people you can trust even halfway are the people who make racing pistons, like Arias, SRP, maybe Probe, maybe Mahle (or maybe not.... they are an outsource vendor for stock ones too), Manely, people like that.

If in doubt, MEASURE. The stock pin bore is .927" dia, meaning that if you measure from the top of the pin bore to the flat of the piston, it should be 1.096" ± .001" or so, for it to be the stock height.

A stock rotating assembly is 9.000" "tall". In theory, you could deck a block to that exact height, measuring off of the crank journal centers; but in real life, that's tough to do without a CNC setup. Obviously, with a stock height assembly, you'd want the block to be EXACTLY 9.000", for everything to be at its optimum. They almost never are.

Basically, the trueness of the block, that whole aspect of "blueprinting" an engine, is one of the easiest spots where you can get hosed. Accurate and consistent deck height is right up there with whether the cyls are pointed straight at the crank, or if they're tilted to the front or rear; or whether they're centered over the crank journals; or whether the BH flange is actually perpendicular to the crank bore, let alone centered on it; or whether the lifter bores point at the cam exactly like they're supposed to; or whether the cam tunnel is parallel to the crank bore; or where the head dowel pins are; or whether the bolt holes, such as the starter ones, are in the right place; and so on. Lots of stuff that's REALLY hard to measure without fixtures and REALLY hard to fix, but REALLY makes one of those head-scratcher messes when it's off.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

So I've gotten everything for my build but the heads, intake manifold and carb. I'm down to these two head options, and was wondering what people thought of each.



SUM-152123
SUM-151124
Price
$324.50
$324.50
+ to Cart /Wish List
Description
Cylinder Head, Cast Iron, Assembled, 67cc Chamber, 165cc Intake Runner, Chevy, 302/ 327/ 350/ 400, Each

Cylinder Head, Vortec, Cast Iron, Assembled, 67cc Chamber, 170cc Intake Runner, Chevy, Small Block, Each

The big differences are one is a non-vortec head with 1.60" exhaust valves, and 2.02" intake valves, and the vortec heads have 1.50" exhaust valves with 1.94" intake valves. Why do the vortecs come with smaller valves?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Basically because they do fine with them.

The raised ports and improved chamber design enable the Vortecs to make more power with smaller valves than standard ports, standard chambers, and larger valves.

JPhillis

Five7kid I am in the same boat as camaro is stuck on the head problem and it seems to be very frustrating tryin to find the right combo. Do you know what teh differences may be in the set of heads he has chosen and the ones I am looking at. I looked at the exact same heads and now toren between those and these. These are my cam specsChevy 262-400 cid Hydraulic camshaft, 2000-4500 RPM Range, 288 intake/298 exhaust Adv Dur, @.050 214 intake/224 exhaust, Valve Lift 443 intake/465 exhaust, Lobe C/L 112.Heads : http://www.jegs.com/p/GM+Performance...10002/-1/10187

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I sure wouldn't go with that cam. A no-bottom-end piece of history.

JPhillis

Ty what would you suggest this is my first performance engine? I owrk on BIG equip. I would like to see the 350-400 hp range anyway. I am looking at a rear end gear of a 4.11 using a 700R4
I plan on buying a set of those heads i linked this weekend

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Comp XE274.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

So basically I should stick with the vortecs? I was wondering because everything after the purchase of the heads is dependant on what heads I choose. I liked the vortecs in the begining, then saw the bigger valves in the other heads and liked that, but if the vortecs work in much the same way, or better then I'm gonna go with those and get a vortec manifold.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

If you're picking components without any "already have" issues, the Vortec heads make a whole lot of sense.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, I have no already have issues. I'm trying to build a motor the right way, which means slowly for my budget lol. But if I keep buying stuff piece by piece, the build sheet and price tag doesn't seem so large. So I'm sticking with the vortec heads. I have another question, I need a new exhaust, and was planning on swapping out the A.I.R. manifiolds with new headers (Non A.I.R.) when I did the motor swap. Except now my exhaust is shot and I need to get it replaced. If I buy the headers now and have the shop do the dual exhaust work now, how is that going to effect my swap when the time comes? Harder? Easier? Nothing different?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The headers will just have to be mounted twice, that's all.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Thats what I figured. okay. I'll keep you guys posted......

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

I was putting my cam in, and my buddy told me that because it was a flat tappet I may have issues with wear or shear, mainly because of something they took out of oil for emmisions purposes? Is this why I had to use special oil when installing? Or do I need to do something else as well, I really don't feel like tearing this motor down again later unless it's absolutely needed. Thanks guys...

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

ILSAC GF-4 rated oils have reduced zinc and phosphorous anti-wear additives because they can damage emissions sensors (OBD-II).

API CI-4+, SL rated diesel oils typically have the anti-wear additives still in them. For my flat-tappet cam'd vehicle, I use AMSOIL Series 3000 5W-30 heavy duty diesel oil. http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/hdd.aspx The "CI" rating is "compression" ignition or diesel, the "I" release; and "SL" rating is the "spark" ignition or gasoline engine, the "L" release. However, you don't want to use synthetic oil to break in the cam. Rotella diesel oil is often used for that purpose.

ILSAC GF-4 oils are typically rated "SM", and perhaps "CF". Lower letter ratings are typically covered by the higher letter ratings.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

So use the rotella oil to break it in the first time and after that oil change go to the amsoil? Or am I off base.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Correct. You can also add GM EOS during break-in.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

How many onces do you recomend of EOS?

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Okay so now I'm up to picking out my Ignition. My father has me really confused, he said considering that I'm not running a computer controlled engine I have to run a points system. But I could've sworn some older chevy's without computers used vacuum advance Distributors, maybe I'm thinking of two things that are the same? Help? lol.

Apeiron

No, you don't. You can use an electronic distributor with mechanical advance, like any non-computer HEI.

In fact, pretty much all of them did. Some of those vacuum advance distributors had points, and some of them were electronic.